When does a believer receive eternal life?

[JLB]

You realize that John wrote about eternal life being received/given in the aorist tense, not just present tense, right?

You do realize that eternal life is for believers right?

Do you consider those who believe for a while then no longer believe, a believer ?

 

[FreeGrace]

This is what I said:
"Rather than more long posts, please just note your view of the 3 possibilities:
There are only 3 possibilities regarding when a believer receives eternal life:
1. when they first believe
2. some time during their life on earth
3. at the end of their life, when they enter eternity

I was unable to ascertain your view as to when one actually receives eternal life. So, please, just note whether you agree with #1, 2, or 3."

His sheep who become lost are no longer "found" or saved.
Case closed.

How so? No number was provided. And the statement given can easily be shown to be false, from Luke 15, where lost sheep are found.

And you've not proven that "lost" in that parable equals "unsaved". Without evidence, that is just an opinion.

Believe is the condition for eternal life, which is found in Christ Jesus.

Correct. Whoever believes possesses eternal life. John 2:15,16, 5:24, 6:47 and 1 John 5:13.
Also, having believed (aorist tense) the believer is sealed IN CHRIST with the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13) who is a deposit GUARANTEEING their inheritance as God's possession (Eph 1:14).

Please note that being sealed in Christ marks the one having believed (aorist) as God's possession.

All as a result of having believed. So much for the notion that one must continue to believe in order to continue to be saved, etc.

Those who believe [commit, trust and obey] are reconciled to God and are one with Christ, being joined to Him and are one spirit with Him.

Yes, they sure are. And this being joined to Him is PERMANENT, as Eph 1:13,14 very clearly indicates. Just as eternal life, a gift of God (Rom 6:23) is irrevocable (Rom 11:29). Or, as Jesus said in John 10:28, those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

Thus the need to continue to believe/obey the call to follow Him so as not to become lost.
JLB

This is about as clear a statement as possible that teaches salvation by works. That is exactly what the Pharisees thought as well. And Jesus condemned them for it.

If following Him is the requirement for staying saved, then it all depends on the person to stay saved. That removes Jesus Christ as Savior, and I must wonder how that isn't rather clear to anyone reading this.

 

[FreeGrace]

You believe you are correct. I believe I am. Perhaps neither of us are correct.
All I know is that I love Christ, and my daily honest self-appraisal, call for any repentance, is an act of love for me.
To be able to be exposed, by honest, and ask forgiveness is all part of being unconditional in Christ for me.
To be asked not to do so is like telling me to stop loving Christ or God.
I rather die loving Christ by baring myself to Him than to take everything for granted and not bother with living the way of Truth and honesty.

Do you believe everything that Jesus said in Scripture?
Do you believe that He ever contradicted Himself?

Sorry, but I will not betray my love.

What would lead one to think that I was trying to get you to do that??

If you love Christ, you should believe everything He said in Scripture. And then face the fact that He NEVER contradicted Himself.

 

[FreeGrace]

You make the same point that I did - i.e., to "believe" in Jesus is not necessarily something that occurs at a fixed point in time, once and for all, case closed, as the OSAS folks believe.

Allow me to introduce the thread to Dr. David R. Dilling. Dr. Dilling has an A.B. degree in Bible, Philosophy, and Greek from Wheaton College; M.Div. and Th.M. degrees from Grace Theological Seminary; and an M.A. in History of Philosophy and a Ph.D. in Philosophy and Education from Purdue University. Dr. Dilling taught Philosophy and Greek at Grace College and Seminary, as well as Educational Philosophy at Purdue University, and served as Administrator of the Christian Academy in Indianapolis.

Just to point out, many Greek scholars disagree with each other. So this one Greek scholar doesn't have the corner on the market.

In short, Dr. Dilling is a Christian scholar and knows a bit about Greek. I quote from his book, The Gospel of John (2008), pp. 15-16. You will see that he says precisely what that dummy Runner, who knows nothing about Greek, suggested several posts ago:

The Gospel of John is preeminently a gospel of belief. He wrote, he said, "so that we might believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that by believing we might have life in His name" (John 20:31). While this evangelistic purpose is so clearly stated, the book, nevertheless, was also written to, and received by, the already believing Church. Thus, at least part of the purpose must be seen as an occasion to confirm the believers in their faith. This is consistent with John's frequent use of the present tense of the verb "believe." In Greek, the significance of tense is much more related to kind of action than to time of action. This concept is somewhat difficult for English speakers since we virtually equate tense with time. The present tense in Greek, however, is much more suggestive of continuing action than the time at which such action takes place. For this reason, translators frequently use a progressive English form to translate a Greek present (for example, "he is running" rather than "he runs"). John's use of the present tense of "believe" here and throughout the Gospel indicates this dynamic aspect of faith. Belief, that is, is not something which is done "once for all" but is a continuing experience of life. For the Apostle, faith produces life - eternal life. But it is also true that such saving faith is persistent. It is to "the ones who continue to believe in his name" that he gives the authority to become the children of God. "The one who continues to live and continues to believe in Me," Jesus said, "will never die" (John 11:26).​

In short, "belief," like "running," is a continuing action.[

Here's the fallacy associated with this 'contuning action' idea: it doesn't mean results of the action cease when the action ceases. This is proven easily by the also frequent use of the aorist tense for 'believe'. The aorist indicates simple occurrence, or a point in time action, like a sneeze. In fact, this tense has no time element to it at all. Just the action itself is emphasized.

I will provide an example from Eph 1:13-14
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

The words "when you believed" is aorist tense, and some translations have "having believed".

But notice the results of this past tense point in time action of having believed:
1. marked in Christ with a seal, the Holy Spirit. This is the indwelling Holy Spirit. And Jesus promised He would be with us forever. That is permanent.
2. This indwelling of the Holy Spirit is a deposit which GUARANTEES our inheritance
3. This sealing marks the one having believed as God's possession

So, from a simple occurrence in a past point of time, the one having believed has all this, which is permanent.

If the notion of "continuing action" of the present tense means what it's claimed to mean, then Paul wouldn't have used the aorist tense ever.

Yet, his answer to the jailer's question of what he MUST DO to be saved was to believe, in the aorist tense. And Rom 10:10 uses the aorist tense for 'believe' as well.

We can't tie results of present tense action to the notion that the action must continue in order for the results to continue. But that's just what Arminians do.

Contrary to what the OSAS folks are claiming I am suggesting, I am not suggesting that one "believes" in 2017, immediately obtains the "results" in the form of salvation, and then "loses" those results by failing to continue to believe until his death in 2067. Consistent with Dr. Dilling's explanation of the Greek, I am suggesting that one does not believe in the sense John is talking about unless one completes the action begun in 2017 by continuing to believe to the end.

Please explain what is this "sense John is talking about" regarding believing?

As I have stated, I have no emotional or theological dog in this fight.

It seems you do.

I merely follow the evidence where it leads. What I see is:

The OSAS folks rely almost exclusively on a strained interpretation of mostly Johannine verses that - at least if Dr. Dilling is correct - is simply wrong.

Simply an opinion. Please consider the evidence of the aorist tense.

The OSAS folks simply ignore a very large number of verses stating pretty clearly that continuing to believe is essential to salvation.

That's based on an erroneous application of the present tense.

The OSAS folks simply ignore that the early Christian fathers clearly taught that continuing to believe is essential to salvation.

One must rely solely on what Scripture says, not fallible human beings after the canon was completed.

It appears to me that the OSAS approach is to force-fit the doctrine they want to believe into Scripture, rather than letting Scripture determine what the doctrine should be.

No evidence for "force-fitting" anything has been presented.

I was born again through an OSAS ministry (Campus Crusade). I have sympathy for the OSAS position. It makes the gospel the "extremely good news." It is very liberating. I don't think OSAS believers are destined for Hell merely because they hold the OSAS position. But intellectual honesty and the evidence compel me to conclude that their position is much, much weaker than OSNAS.

I believe what Jesus promised in John 10:28; that those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

Now, when does Jesus give this gift of eternal life to people? Please note source for your answer.

 

[FreeGrace]

My question was simply this:
There are only 3 possibilities regarding when a believer receives eternal life:
1. when they first believe
2. some time during their life on earth
3. at the end of their life, when they enter eternity

Which view is yours?

Those who believe for a while then no longer believe are no longer saved.

OK, it's clear to me that my question will not be answered. And your opinion is baseless.

12 Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.13 But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. Luke 8:12-13

This assumes that ceasing to believe results in ceasing to be saved. Yet, Eph 1:13-14 with the aorist tense refutes that idea, as does all the verses that use "believe" in the aorist tense.

And Jesus based never perishing, not on behavior, but on giving eternal life to people. Such people shall never perish. John 10:28

 

[FreeGrace]

Tell me if this is correct...

I was saved, I am being saved, I will be saved...

Absolutely true.

Salvation involves 3 tenses, past, present, and future.

Past tense Salvation: I have been saved from the penalty of sin. Justification
Present tense Salvation: I am being saved from the power of sin. Sanctification
Future tense Salvation: I will be saved from the presence of sin. Glorification

 

[FreeGrace]

You are misinterpreting what seal means.

Your opinion has been noted. But the Scripture is clear about this seal in Eph 1:13. It is the Holy Spirit Himself.

Those who believe have the King's seal of approval, the Holy Spirit.

See? No misinterpretation at all.

And this seal, the Holy Spirit, is permanent, as Jesus promised in John 14:16. "And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever—"

That's actually quite a long time.

Not only that, but this seal is God's GUARANTEE of our inheritance as God's possession.

Those who believe for a while then no longer believe are no longer believers.

So far, there has been no evidence for this from Scripture. I know what is coming; another quote of Luke 15:12-13. But it's still only an incorrect assumption that ceasing to believe equals ceasing to be saved.

Very simple.

I think so. Yes.

 

[FreeGrace]

You do realize that eternal life is for believers right?

It's given WHEN one believes. Unless there is evidence that eternal life is given some specific time AFTER one initially believes.

But John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:47 and 1 John 5:13 say those who believe HAVE, as in possess, eternal life.

But you've failed to provide an answer to your view of the 3 possibilities, I don't expect there will be any evidence provided in regard to this question of when one actually receives eternal life.

Do you consider those who believe for a while then no longer believe, a believer ?

I consider them to be God's possession, from Eph 1:13-14, since they have been sealed in Christ by the indwelling Holy Spirit from HAVING BELIEVED, and the Holy Spirit GUARANTEES their inheritance for the day of redemption.

And John 10:28 refutes your claim about those who cease to believe still being saved. Jesus said those He gives eternal life shall never perish. That's good enough for me.

 

[chessman]

You do realize that eternal life is for believers right?

Yes. And furthermore eternal life is spoken of as being given in the aorist tense, which is a simple occurrence in kind and past in tense. oh, and eternal as the phrase states.

John 17:1-2 (LEB) Jesus said these things, and lifting up his eyes to heaven he said, “Father, the hour has come! Glorify your Son, in order that your Son may glorify you— just as you have given him authority over all flesh, in order that he would give eternal life to them—everyone whom you have given him.​

Do you realize that "just as" Jesus has been given authority over all flesh (aorist tense), He gives (aorist) eternal life to "everyone" whom the Father has given Him (perfect tense, completed results), not just some but everyone? Do you think Jesus will ever lose the authority He's been given over all flesh?

Do you consider those who believe for a while then no longer believe, a believer ?

No. What you describe would be considered an ex-believer. I once believed there was no God and Jesus was a myth, and now no longer believe Jesus is a myth. I am an ex-believer in the mythological Jesus an have become a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ (Messiah, the one and only Son of God) who has given me (aorist and present tense) eternal life.

John 3:18 The one who believes in him is not judged, but the one who does not believe has already been judged, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.​

At the judgment, there will be two kinds of people (not three); one kind that believes in Him and one kind that has not believed in Him. Not a third kind that believed in Him for a while.

 

[th1b.taylor]

It's given WHEN one believes. Unless there is evidence that eternal life is given some specific time AFTER one initially believes.

But John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:47 and 1 John 5:13 say those who believe HAVE, as in possess, eternal life.

But you've failed to provide an answer to your view of the 3 possibilities, I don't expect there will be any evidence provided in regard to this question of when one actually receives eternal life.


I consider them to be God's possession, from Eph 1:13-14, since they have been sealed in Christ by the indwelling Holy Spirit from HAVING BELIEVED, and the Holy Spirit GUARANTEES their inheritance for the day of redemption.

And John 10:28 refutes your claim about those who cease to believe still being saved. Jesus said those He gives eternal life shall never perish. That's good enough for me.

I don't wish to interfere but feel the need to comment; Matthew 22:1-14 is the Parable of the Wedding Feast. In the feast we see the Bride and the Groom. But that is not a full room, no matter where the cut-off point is, there will be many Guests at the Banquet.

Now we know by reasoning, using all of scripture and letting it's light shine on these fourteen verses, that none will enter into Heaven that will, after the joining of the Bride to the Groom, be expelled. I rather believe Jesus and his bride will rule the Earth for a thousand years before the Final Resurrection, the Resurrection unto Death, the resurrection of the Dead in Christ to stand the Great White Throne Judgment.

Just something to consider, I feel it reflects on where this discussion leads to.

 

[Winter Tapioca]

"her soul"???

Please look just above my handle and see the "male" sign, a circle with arrow pointing up.

Apologies, his soul. I don't see the avatars of people here and there's no gender column in the profile block beside posts.

 

[Winter Tapioca]

You are misinterpreting what seal means.

Those who believe have the King's seal of approval, the Holy Spirit.

Those who believe for a while then no longer believe are no longer believers.

Very simple.


JLB

I'd love to know who taught the scriptures to someone that they would believe such hogwash as that.
False teachers abound in this world. They're more interested in following or large bank accounts for their effort than they are in speaking the truth of God in Christ's sermons.
The teacher that taught that hogwash above is damned unless they find Christ and the true gospel. Because that false teacher that misled you thinks that people have something to do with their own salvation. That's a lie straight from Hell.

People are saved by God's grace. He calls whom he will to his Son and no one comes to the Father but through the Father who was Emmanuel on Earth. Through his teaching of repentance, renewal, rebirth in the spirit, which is how we must worship, and then be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Washed clean of our sins and former self, we rise reborn in and that water, renewed. All our sins washed clean, under the blood of the lamb. That God the Father who knew us before we were born, knew our name before he created the worlds, shall remember no more our fallen selves. Our sins. We do nothing to save ourselves. It is God's grace that saves.
And Jesus said those whom the Father puts in his hand, in his keeping , shall no one ever take away from him. That naturally means if no one can remove us from Jesus' hand that we ourselves are unable to do so.
Jesus taught eternal salvation, eternal life is what he died to give those whom his Father calls to himself. There was no equivocation in that sacrifice. Jesus did not die to give temporary life, transient salvation. He died and gave eternal life to those who believe. Our belief isn't our characteristic. It is God who first believed in us. Which is why His Word tells us he knew us before we were born! He knew who would come to him and once they did they were eternally his.
When Jesus was asked how many times a person should forgive someone who trespasses against them Jesus didn't say, just once. He said 7 times 70 times. God forgave us our sins when we repented of them and accepted his son into our life as that which saves us from this life.And our former fallen selves.
We are indwelt by the Holy Spirit of God and just as there is nothing we did to gain salvation, there is no thing per Jesus that we can do to lose it. God remembers our sins no more. He knew us before the world was created, before we were born. He knows those who are his and those who are not.
God is not a man that he should lie. But false teachers certainly are when they minister to those who know no better that it is the human ego that saves the human soul. And it is the human ego that can lose it. That's literally a damned lie. And unless the false teacher that corrupted the truth when influencing the Christian that believes such garbage finds their way to Christ, and the true good news, they shall perish with their leader that drew them straight to the false path and straight to Hell. Egoism and Pride has no place in redemption. Those two characteristics are what are repented of. Not upheld as the good news of Christ.

And egoism and pride are the doctrine of Hell that teaches we can lose our salvation and we can banish the sealing of the Holy Spirit if we make one false step in our walk with our Lord.

Lucifer, light bringer, shines in such teachings as that. Not Jesus Christ.

 

[Edward]

Absolutely true.

Salvation involves 3 tenses, past, present, and future.

Past tense Salvation: I have been saved from the penalty of sin. Justification
Present tense Salvation: I am being saved from the power of sin. Sanctification
Future tense Salvation: I will be saved from the presence of sin. Glorification

That's what I thought after I thought about this. So all three in the original post are true.

 

[JLB]

Yes. And furthermore eternal life is spoken of as being given in the aorist tense, which is a simple occurrence in kind and past in tense. oh, and eternal as the phrase states.

John 17:1-2 (LEB) Jesus said these things, and lifting up his eyes to heaven he said, “Father, the hour has come! Glorify your Son, in order that your Son may glorify you— just as you have given him authority over all flesh, in order that he would give eternal life to them—everyone whom you have given him.​

Do you realize that "just as" Jesus has been given authority over all flesh (aorist tense), He gives (aorist) eternal life to "everyone" whom the Father has given Him (perfect tense, completed results), not just some but everyone? Do you think Jesus will ever lose the authority He's been given over all flesh?


No. What you describe would be considered an ex-believer. I once believed there was no God and Jesus was a myth, and now no longer believe Jesus is a myth. I am an ex-believer in the mythological Jesus an have become a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ (Messiah, the one and only Son of God) who has given me (aorist and present tense) eternal life.

John 3:18 The one who believes in him is not judged, but the one who does not believe has already been judged, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.​

At the judgment, there will be two kinds of people (not three); one kind that believes in Him and one kind that has not believed in Him. Not a third kind that believed in Him for a while.

Thank for explaining that OSAS is a myth.

 

[JLB]

It's given WHEN one believes. Unless there is evidence that eternal life is given some specific time AFTER one initially believes.

But John 3:15,16, 5:24, 6:47 and 1 John 5:13 say those who believe HAVE, as in possess, eternal life.

But you've failed to provide an answer to your view of the 3 possibilities, I don't expect there will be any evidence provided in regard to this question of when one actually receives eternal life.


I consider them to be God's possession, from Eph 1:13-14, since they have been sealed in Christ by the indwelling Holy Spirit from HAVING BELIEVED, and the Holy Spirit GUARANTEES their inheritance for the day of redemption.

And John 10:28 refutes your claim about those who cease to believe still being saved. Jesus said those He gives eternal life shall never perish. That's good enough for me.

29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. Matthew 19:29

• shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.

And again

that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:7

• we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

At what point does your theology teach that a person inherits eternal life.

• At the moment they believe?
• Some point in their life?
• At the resurrection of life?

JLB

 

[for_his_glory]

Amen remain in Christ.

Those who are "in Christ" are joined to the eternal life that is only found in Christ.

Those who are removed from Christ, are no longer joined with Him and are no longer one spirit with Him.

Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
John 15:2

Those who become disconnected from Him, are cast into the fire and burned.

If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:8



JLB

no like button, but I do like

 

[Winter Tapioca]

Thank for explaining that OSAS is a myth.

That's not at all what they said. OSAS is not a myth. Jesus died to make it a reality.

 

[for_his_glory]

No, NONE of the verses say any of that. What they DO say is that whoever believes HAS eternal life. There was no "caveat" about having to "remain in Chrit and receiving the promise of eternal life "as long as they remain in Christ".

In fact, there is no such wording anywhere in Scripture.


So then, the verses that plainly say that whoever believes HAS (as in currently possesses) eternal life don't really mean that???!!!

The verses are clear enough. They are not about a future "promise" of eternal life, but a direct statement of currently possessing eternal life WHEN one believes.

(God in us and we in God is the wording in these scriptures)
1 John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. 15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. 16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

Whoever believes and bears good fruit has eternal life with the Father when Christ returns. It is a promise of God, but also a promise that those who bear bad fruit or not fruit at all of none of God and will not receive eternal life, but are cast into the fire.

Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

(God in us and we in God is the wording in these scriptures)
1 John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world. 15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. 16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

(none of God will be burned)

John 15:1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. 3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

 

[Winter Tapioca]

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

That's the bottom line. Any teaching that contradicts Christ himself is of the enemy of truth of God in Christ.


2 Peter 2:1
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

His sheep who become lost are no longer "found" or saved.


Case closed.

James 5
13 Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing praise. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. 16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working. 17 Elijah was a man with a nature like ours, and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. 18 Then he prayed again, and heaven gave rain, and the earth bore its fruit.

19 My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, 20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

 

[Douglas Summers]

Therefore, one is eternally saved WHEN one believes in Christ.

Yes, (John 11:25-27)