Atonement
Member
Indeed I would lol. But salvation is not the subject matter at hand. It appears so far I'm the only Pre-trib believer here. I haven't accused anyone loosing salvation.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
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https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
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When is The Rapture, And How Does The Tribulation REALLY Work?
- Thread starter Mitch Etling
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- rapture
I believed for years in a pretrib rapture just taking the word at face value from all those who taught this theory as I had very little knowledge back then. It wasn't until they used 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; Rev 4:1 and a few more taken out of context as a precursor to their teachings that something in my spirit did not set well with these teachings. I thank God He sent me the Holy Spirit to help teach me as when the tribulation begins and many that have been mislead see themselves still here could fall away as they believed a lie.
Scripture says Christ will come as a thief in the night lines up for example with the parable of the ten virgins in Matthew 25:1-13 as the ones who are not prepared being the goats will mourn His coming as Jesus comes for His sheep.
I believe during the time of the first six trumpets before Christ returns on the last day that many will be made believers in Christ accepting Him as their Lord and Savior as they repent and come to Christ.
When the son of perdition takes his literal seat in the holy place of Jerusalem, 2Thessalonians 2:1-5 Jesus warned us to flee as He has a place prepared for us wherever we go to, Matthew 24:15-21; Rev 12:14. At this time many Christians will be taken captive that did not heed the warning to flee and if they will not denounce Christ and bow down and take the mark of this beast, who falsely claims peace and safety to all who takes its mark, they will die a martyr's death,
God's protection is absolute to those who are His own and escape into the wilderness as they trust in Christ to help meet their needs. Just as God told Moses to strike the rock for fresh water, Exodus 17:1-7, and sending manna down from heaven and providing Quail for meat, Exodus 16, so will be the same in the end of days, Philippians 4:19.
Nut shell scenario of what will happen during the first six trumpets of Rev Chapter 8-11 that leads up to the seventh trumpet and the 3 1/2 years events of Chapter 13 with the beast out of the sea and out of the earth.
God’s wrath is poured out into the world as chastisements for disobedience, but also a warning that man needs to repent and turn back to God before the door of salvation is closed forever when Christ returns.
Hail and fire can be likened unto meteors that fall from the sky. A third of the trees and all the green grass are burned up which makes a third part of the world with a shortage of oxygen in the air that is created from the carbon dioxide from the trees and living plants. Seeing that this is Global the intense fire and smoke from all the trees and grass burning can travel for miles causing much more damage throughout the nations. The trees that produce various healthy foods for our wellbeing will become scarce. The green grasses that would probably include crops of wheat, barley, corn and so forth will be destroyed causing a shortage in food. The animals we depend on as a food source will also die as they are left without vegetation they need to live on.
This great mountain burning with fire could be a large asteroid as the third part of the sea is destroyed along with sea life and the third part of the ships that sit in it. The third part of the sea turned to blood by reason of all the animal life that is killed and those men, women and children who are on these ships that are destroyed. Take into consideration the disease that would spread from all the rotted sea life that is rotting away washing up on the shore and the flesh of those who were burned along with the ships.
These ships will more than likely be types of fuel tankers, merchant, fishing and luxury cruises ships traveling the waters. With the third of these ships being destroyed means a third part of the world’s fuel and food supply would be destroyed. There is only one ocean, but divided by four regions as being the Pacific Ocean, Atlantic Ocean, Arctic Ocean, and the Indian Ocean. This would be like the four corners of the earth as being North, South, East and West. The only difference between the ocean and the sea is that the ocean is much larger and feeds into the 108 seas around the world that also flow into our lakes and streams that provide us with fresh drinking water and other sources of food.
With the third part of the sun, moon and stars being darkened this will affect mans source of electricity and heat that is vital to keep a certain degree of the earth warm, and generated power in homes, hospitals and manufacturing plants including nuclear reactors.
Agriculture and navigation would be hard pressed as it takes the solar power from the sun to run the solar cells that produces the energy needed to run farming machinery and trucks to take the produce to manufacturing plants where the produce is then distributed to market.
Vehicles such as cars, ambulances, planes, trains and the list goes on need an energy source from the sun in order to run their engines. The darkness of the third part of the day would be roughly around eight hours of daylight being lost and total darkness of night as the moon and stars are illuminated by the sun at night. A flashlight would be useless to see in the dark as it needs energy from the sun to run the battery that turns the light on.
This much darkness would cause people to panic in the streets creating chaos as the love of many will wax cold, Matthew 24:12. Riots would break out causing looting and lose of life as those who have not will do anything in desperation to take from those who have much. IMO Marshal law will be enforced as we see history repeat itself with many Christians taken captive that did not flee and killed as they refuse to denounce Christ and take the mark. They will also die a martyr's death, Rev 6:9-11, especially vs. 11. Also we are not to fear what man can do to us, Matthew 10:28.
This is where the mark of the beast comes in during the seventh trumpet as this NWO is a Luciferian system of economics, political, military, educational and false religious power that gives power to the beast out of the earth being the son of perdition. By lying signs and wonders the beast will deceive the nations (people) into taking its mark. IMO I think the mark is the thoughts of our mind and the actions of our hands reaching out to this beast that promises peace, safety and provision as many will bow down and worship this beast who claims to be God.
After the 3 1/2 years of this Luciferian reign on earth that will wear out the saints then every eye will see Christ coming in the clouds with His army of angels that are then sent out to gather those saints who are alive at His coming and those who sleep in their graves. We are gathered up to the clouds as we receive our new glorified bodies in order to meet Jesus in the air. From the air He destroys the beast and false prophet by the brightness of His coming only speaking their destruction casting them into the lake of fire. Satan is bound for a time as Jesus sets out to destroy all the nations that followed after the beast. Satan is then released in a final attempt to destroy the saints as he sends his angels out to surround the camp of the saints, but the angels are consumed by fire and Satan cast into the lake of fire. Then comes God's great white throne judgment and the books are opened and all are judged. Then this present heaven and earth are burned up and made new again and the New Jerusalem is ushered down from heaven where we will be with the Lord forever.
n2thelight
Member
The resurrection happens at death ,there is no rapture ,period. We gather to Christ at His 2nd coming when ALL are changed ,no one get's taken off the earth ,those in Him go with Him to Jerusalem .
Those not in Christ although changed will have a mortal soul , meaning they can die the 2nd death which is the death of the soul
The 2nd coming starts the Day of the Lord , ie ,the millennium a time for learning the true Word of God for those who fell short .
I agree with much of what you are saying, however, those who are alive and remain until His coming will be caught together with those who are resurrected.
- And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
JLB
Rockytopva
Member
I do not believe Revelation and end time prophecies are written where no two can read into and come up with the same conclusions, therefore the Lord says…
Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. - Revelation 16:15
In which case, if this event were anything but pre-trib, there would be no reason to say such a thing. So… I look for the Lord to come any day, but within my heart believe such an event as decades off.
Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. - Revelation 16:15
In which case, if this event were anything but pre-trib, there would be no reason to say such a thing. So… I look for the Lord to come any day, but within my heart believe such an event as decades off.
Rockytopva
Member
And…
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.- 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18
If we are going to return with Christ to reign a thousand years that would be rather a short trip (if this were post-trib) wouldn’t you say?
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.- 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18
If we are going to return with Christ to reign a thousand years that would be rather a short trip (if this were post-trib) wouldn’t you say?
The warning from Jesus to His people is to not be caught by that Day as a thief in the night.
As Paul plainly states —
- But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.
But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 1 Thessalonians 5:1-4
The Day of the Lord, is the Second Coming of Christ, in which He destroys the Antichrist and the wicked.
And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:8
JLB
Episcopius
Member
Who is THE RESTRAINER - the one WITHHOLDING?
In a way, Paul makes it sound like the Thessalonians KNOW/KNEW who it was.
PreTribbers say the Restrainer is the Holy Spirit - who will be taken out of the way as Christians vanish...
Seems far-fetched to me (I'm not PreTrib)
In a way, Paul makes it sound like the Thessalonians KNOW/KNEW who it was.
PreTribbers say the Restrainer is the Holy Spirit - who will be taken out of the way as Christians vanish...
Seems far-fetched to me (I'm not PreTrib)
My understanding is that 2Thessalonians 2:1-12 is speaking about Satan being withheld right now by God. Satan is the one working iniquity in the world from the time he was kicked out of the garden of Eden, Ezekiel 28:12-18, way before the creation of man as Satan has always had access to the throne of God while going to and fro throughout the earth.
We know everything is in God's timing for His purpose in heaven and on earth. After the sounding of the sixth trumpet, Rev 9:13-21, the world will be thrown in total chaos from the time of the first trumpet to the sixth of God's great wrath being poured out into the earth. Jesus told us for then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be, Matthew 24:21. This will be the timing of the war in heaven between Michael and Satan, Rev 12:7-12. At this time Satan, who for now is being withheld by God, will be cast out of heaven and will work through the son of perdition to begin his 3 1/2 year deceptive reign here on earth deceiving even the very elect of God if possible promising peace and safety to all who will take his mark and bow down to him.
Episcopius
Member
2Th 2:6
And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
n2thelight
Member
n2thelight
Member
Christ can't return at anytime , ie , like tomorrow . He told us everything that would and must happen before that time , one of them is that satan comes to this earth before He (Christ)does .
The dead in Christ occurs at His coming, and the rapture happens just afterwards, in which the resurrected one and the raptured ones are caught up together with Him in the air.
But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
- For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
The saints who are in heaven will return with Him and will receive their new resurrected bodies, in which their physical bodies will be raised from the dead. This occurs at His coming when He returns to gather His people together to be with Him forever.
- For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
Can we agree on this?
JLB
Bob Carabbio
Member
Which "authoritative version" would you like???----------
When is The Rapture, And How Does The Tribulation REALLY Work?
rapture.txt
drive.google.com
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n2thelight
Member
The physical body will be resurrected from the dead, in which it is changed from mortal to immortal.
I never said the soul of the person is in the grave.
The dead in Christ will return with him, to receive their new resurrected bodies that are like His.
JLB
n2thelight
Member
My point is that ,they don't need a resurrected body ,the soul is who we are .As Paul explained ,we have two bodies .
We don't have a soul we are a soul ,which is housed in the body during this age of the flesh.
We were never meant to be made flesh, we are dust in this age , and that dust will not come back to form a body, It's dirt and there it shall stay
Actually we do indeed need a resurrected body, which is a body that is immortal because it contains no sin. A body of sin is what causes us
(our physical body) to die.
At the resurrection our body will be raised immortal, and will shine like the sun, like Jesus. We also will have the capacity to occupy both heaven and earth, like Jesus. This resurrected body will have abilities beyond what our old bodies had.
Here are some scriptures that teach us about these things.
But someone will say, “How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?” Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies. 1 Corinthians 15:35-36
Thats the first thing we need to understand. What is sown is not “made alive” until it dies.
This is illustrated for us in nature. Take the caterpillar for example.
It is sown a catapillar but emerges what it was really designed to become.
A beautiful butterfly, with capability beyond what a caterpillar has, having the ability to fly, and bringing new life to others through its ability to pollinate.
And what you sow, you do not sow that body that shall be, but mere grain—perhaps wheat or some other grain. But God gives it a body as He pleases, and to each seed its own body. 1 Corinthians 15:37-38
Secondly we must understand it is God Himself that has designed the body and it’s functions we will need in the age to come. The body that is sown and dies, is not the body we will have for all eternity. The body we will have for the ages to come all be immortal, and never die.
So also is the resurrection of the dead. The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 1 Corinthians 15:42-44
Our physical bodies are weak, and not compatible with eternal life and the things of the age to come. We will be like the angels, who have immortal bodies that will never die.
But those who are counted worthy to attain that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage; nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection. Luke 2:35-36
- nor can they die anymore, for they are equal to the angels and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
JLB