WHO 'killed' Jesus Christ?

[Oscar3]

Majic
Whats the answer. I look forward to your reply.

 

[Imagican]

The answer:

God SENT His Son to die at the hands of man. The Jewish religious leadership arranged to have Christ arrested and insisted that He be put to death. But, it was at the hands of the Romans that Christ was actually NAILED to the cross.

I am confused over this issue. I have never really discussed it with anyone before, but I would think that it is OBVIOUS 'who' killed Jesus Christ.

I have heard the songs and listened to the 'warm fuzzy' sermons about how 'you and I' killled Christ. But for this to be 'true', that would mean that WE were capable of 'taking' from Christ what He FREELY offered. I don't believe this possible, so that leaves 'reality' rather than fantasy to 'discern' the 'truth'. And that truth is stated PLAINLY in scripture.

See how easy it is for the churches to 'manipulate' scripture in 'their OWN' direction? There is PLAIN and SIMPLE evidence of the 'truth', yet the churches have watered that down to the point that few are even able to discern WITHOUT their influence directing their understanding. Why do you figure this IS? Why would the churches, IF they are led by The Spirit, 'alter' the 'truth' into ANYTHING other than TRUTH?

If one reads the OT, it becomes quickly apparent that even though God used His enemies to punish the Hebrews/Jews, He ALSO allowed those that He used to bring about their OWN condemnation. Thus, He gave them the 'freedom' to bring about 'their OWN' fate according to His judgement.

What am I saying? The Romans were a notoriously RUTHLESS people. Totally lacking in morals, (at times), and persecuters of not only Christians, but God's CHOSEN as well. I mean, come on folks, are you UNAWARE of HOW they gained control over Isreal? Do you believe that Isreal WANTED to be under Roman domination?

Now, with these things in mind, do you HONESTLY think that the evil that the Romans dealt out among the nations will be ignored? Never happened before in the history of the relationship between God and man. The Egyptians, the Cananites, Babylonians, etc,,,,,,,all had extremely advanced civilizations and power over their neighbors. Yet, look at them now. Each drained of their power and glory and at present, of no significance what so ever in the scope of 'world power'. Do you think that this 'just happened'?

Look, just because we don't have the history of EVERYTHING performed by God and WHY, doesn't mean that we are COMPLETELY unable to discern MANY of the events of history and make a relatively accurate assumption as to the WHY.

Hitler for example. Do you think that this man 'just happened'. Are you totally unaware of the 'why'? We have about half a dozen examples of the EXACT same thing happening throughout the history of the Hebrews/Jews. Once again, as they had done OVER AND OVER, they had 'turned their backs on God', thinking that 'they' were responsible for their OWN accomplishments. Forsaking Him for mammon and 'other gods'. And ONCE again, as He had done on NUMEROUS occasions throught the history of these people, he gave them a 'REASON' to 'turn back to Him'.

Many shun this concept but history is it's OWN proof of MANY things once one comes to the understanding that GOD IS IN CONTROL. Yes, we have free will, but He also has the means to STOP US FROM USING IT.

The Bible PLAINLY states that He punishes those that choose to follow Him and stray. THAT is EXACTLY HOW He 'shows us' the folly of our ways OFTEN. And He often uses His enemies to accomplish His will. And OFTEN throughout history He has also allowed his enemies to 'seal their OWN fates' by their TREATMENT of others, ESPECIALLY HIS CHOSEN. To deny this is to ignore ALL that has been offered concerning this understanding.

EVERYTHING that happens is ALLOWED to happen or NOT. That IS the will of God. He IS in control and exhibits it AT HIS WILL. This practically insignificant existence that we call 'life' is ONLY for a moment. It is His to give, or His to take away. And IF there IS eternity for the soul of man, this small moment of time that we live 'in the flesh' is of LITTLE significance to God. What we DO with it IS, but that it exists is of little importance to Him.

As Christ KNEW that He would 'live AGAIN', don't you realize how much EASIER it was to 'give up this life'? Just as for those that 'truly' possess faith in what has been offered KNOW that this life in the flesh is of little value. For those there should be NO FEAR of death of the flesh, for death is only another step towards becoming what we were destined to be.

With these things in mind, it is simple to understand that death is only a 'stepping stone'. But WOE to those that ''TAKE LIFE'', for these are those that seek to USURP the authority of God. These choose to 'hate' God and their brothers and sisters RATHER than offer LOVE. For this, ALL will CERTAINLY be judged accordingly.

And the true punishment STARTS with the realization that God ALLOWED the behavior exhibited. Those performing and thinking that THEY were in control WILL come to the realization that they were in control of NOTHING other than their OWN fate. Who they hurt and what they take is TOTALLY unable to do ANYTHING except bring about 'their OWN pain and suffering' when confronted with the TRUTH of God's power. This 'false pride' will make the suffering ALL THE WORSE, once it is REVEALED that this is ALL THAT IT IS. No more lying to oneself and others when the 'truth' is finally revealed.

Thanks for your patience. I hope that some may find this enlightening. And I leave you with the question STILL being open to understanding. WHO killed Jesus Christ? It's a simple answer REALLY.

MEC

 

[ChristineES]

If Yeshua did not want to be killed, He could have had it stopped! He is the Son of God! We all killed Yeshua, I did, all of you did. Blaming the Jews or Romans is pretty stupid to my way of thinking. There are some of you who need to reread the Gospels again. The answer is there.

 

[TanNinety]

If Yeshua did not want to be killed, He could have had it stopped! He is the Son of God! We all killed Yeshua, I did, all of you did. Blaming the Jews or Romans is pretty stupid to my way of thinking. There are some of you who need to reread the Gospels again. The answer is there.

If we all killed Yeshua by deduction then why not take that deduction one step farther and say God killed Yeshua because He created us knowing we would sin?

 

[Imagican]

Once again, I see the 'influence' of the churches rather than the WORD being the deciding factor in this sort of understanding Christine.

For US to kill Christ would mean that we TOOK His life. Can you NOT see that this would TOTALLY NEGATE the 'gift' FREELY OFFERED?

As Christ TOLD Pontius, NOTHING could 'stand in the way' of the WILL of God. The gift that was offered would NOT be a gift, but something that we STOLE if it were US that killed Jesus Christ. NOPE. Sorry. Haven't been able to 'find' this in the Gospels.

But, Christ WAS killed. By the hands of men. What my question was is WHO these men were?

You state fairness in your discerning of the answer. You indicate that it's WRONG to blame ANYONE for His death other than ourselves. Sorry. Christ DID die for ME; WILLINGLY. But I did NOT nail Him to the cross. Regardless of how many 'cute plays' you've seen, or how many 'warm, fuzzy sermons you've listened to concerning the matter, the TRUTH is SOMEONE Nailed this Man to the cross. And REGARDLESS of one's desire to IGNORE the blame, there IS still responsibility for His death.

Let me ask this: Do you think those that have MURDERED SAINTS will go UNPUNISHED for their deeds? Do you think that Hitler and those that followed him in his destruction will go UNPUNISHED? Now, WHY would God punish EVERYONE else on the planet that had ruthlessly murdered and caused pain to others WILLINGLY, and NOT punish those that NAILED HIS SON TO THE CROSS. Now that's just PLAIN silly.

Let's see, Moses disobeyed God ONE time and for this he NEVER got to enter the 'Promised Land'. Lot's wife disobeyed God and was turned into a 'pillar of salt'. Jonah refused to follow God's will and was swallowed by a fish, the examples are numerous. Now WHY would ANYONE refuse to acknowledge the blame for the actual death of Christ?

I have the answer but no matter how much I have prodded, no one seems to be willing to admit it. It's because for centuries and centuries the Catholics blamed the JEWS and persecuted them for it. Teaching the followers of the CC that the Jews were little more than animals responsible for the death of the Savior. WHY? Why did the CC do this? It's simple really. To cover the TRUTH. And that being that the ROMANS themselves were responsible for the death of Christ. But to admit this would bring the 'shame' upon them so they altered the reality of truth and blamed it on the Jews. Don't forget, the CLERGY were the ONLY ones with access to the Word for CENTURIES.

Truth; the Jews DID insist upon the death of Christ. BUT, the FINAL decision fell into the hands of the Romans. This is PLAINLY stated in the Bible. Pontius could have JUST as easily 'let Christ go' if he had NOT bowed to the wishes of the Jews and his own laziness and pride. That was NOT to be however and HE made the decision to execute Christ.

Always remember folks, we ARE our brothers 'keepers'. That is WITHOUT doubt. So, no matter how one may 'try' to 'shirk' the responsibility by 'action' or 'inaction', the responsibility IS there REGARDLESS. Are we to simply 'sit back' and watch others treated un-fairly, or is it our job to 'step in' and take responsibility to 'change' it? Is there ANYTIME that we are NOT to do that which is RIGHT? We ARE to be held responsible for our actions OR INACTION. To IGNORE that which is needed is NO DIFFERENT than perforiming acts of disobedience. When we witness our brothers and sisters following the 'wrong' path it IS our responsibility to make EVERY effort possible to warn them and teach them BETTER.

Christine, rest assured, my dear, that I have read the Gospels a 'couple of times'. The difference that 'you' are unable to discern is that I have NOT relied upon 'a church' to 'TELL' me what to 'read into' the Word. I was LED to read in the 'first place' and offered understanding WITHOUT the influence of the churches.

I know, I know, "one man show'' again. So be it. But I can assure you that if your understanding is based upon what MEN would teach you from 'their' perspective, that is NOTHING other than the understanding of the world. Limited and MOSTLY tainted by certuries of manipulation of the Word. Hopefully one day those that 'truly' seek the TRUTH will understand this. But NO one that chooses to 'play the church game' will EVER be free from their bonds in order to SEE clearly.

MEC

 

[stovebolts]

Seems to me Imagician that when you become so narrow minded, you miss the beauty of the scriptures...

Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which kills the prophets, and stones them that are sent unto you; how often would I have gathered your children together, as a hen does gather her brood under her wings, and you would not!

Jerusalem killed the prohpets? How in the world does a city have children? Did NY birth Chicago? :o

Lets try this one :wink:
2 Corinthians 3:6 Who also has made us able ministers of the new covenant; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter kills, but the spirit gives life.

Letters can kill? Interesting...

But closer to your point...
Matthew 5:21-22 You have heard that it was said by them of old time, You shall not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, You fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

So, what was your point anyway?

 

[stovebolts]

I have heard the songs and listened to the 'warm fuzzy' sermons about how 'you and I' killled Christ. But for this to be 'true', that would mean that WE were capable of 'taking' from Christ what He FREELY offered.

Freely? Freely? Christ's life was offered Freely? Don't think so. It was payment due. [we Christians like to use the term atonement] Nothing free about it at all... Christ paid the PRICE for 'SIN' with HIS 'life'.

Christ submitted to the will of the father. He obeyed. Remember Christ's own words?
Mark 14:36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto you; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what you will.

Was it Christ's will or was he Obeying the will of His father?

Your foolishness is being exposed Imagician.

 

[stovebolts]

Christine, rest assured, my dear, that I have read the Gospels a 'couple of times'..

May I suggest that you stop searching them to appease your desire, and just allow them to be what they are?

The difference that 'you' are unable to discern is that I have NOT relied upon 'a church' to 'TELL' me what to 'read into' the Word..

Because you choose not to be a part of The Church.
The Church is the unified body of Christ, you are welcome to enter in through the blood of Christ any time.

I was LED to read in the 'first place' and offered understanding WITHOUT the influence of the churches.

Ask yourself 'who' has been leading you. There is only ONE Church.

You use all the right words Imagicain and you are very clever with your choice of words. 'You' remind me of Job...

Job 34:35-37 Job has spoken without knowledge, and his words were without wisdom. My desire is that Job may be tried unto the end because he answers like wicked men. For he adds rebellion unto his sin, he claps his hands among us, and multiplies his words against God.

 

[NRoof]

I haven’t posted in a while but I couldn’t pass this up.

Question: Who killed Christ?

NOPE, not asking 'why' He died. Not asking 'why' God 'sent' Him. What the question is PLAIN and SiMPLE, 'WHO' Killed Jesus Christ? WHO sentenced Him to 'death' and WHO carried out the execution of our Lord and Savior?

The question seems simple as stated although I don’t understand the reason for the question to begin with. I do believe there is an underlying motive to this but I will play along.

My final answer will come at the end of this post but for now I will answer what I believe is being asked.

Who crucified Jesus? Quite simply it was the Romans. It was a Roman who gave the Jews a choice (although he really didn’t want to). Yes it was the Jews who chose Jesus but it was the Romans who carried it out. So from a physical standpoint (and what I believe is being asked) it was the Romans.

Now to something else Imagican alluded to:
No the RCC had nothing to do with this. Before your blood boils here me out.
First let me say I am not a historian and thus don’t know the full origins of the RCC but I will go on my understanding. The RCC believe that Peter created the Church. For argument sake we will go with this as a starting point. If Peter did in fact start the RCC, he did so some time after the crucifixion. Based on your own arguments it was in fact only a handful of Roman who had a direct had in the crucifixion of Christ.

Now for my answer:

Who Killed Christ? No One

Jesus is alive and well and is now preparing a place for all who believe in him. Yes his physical body died and was raised 3 days later but Jesus never actually died. It was the blood of his perfect physical body that was spilled for the sins of all.

This sounds better in my head than it appears in print but I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.

 

[Imagican]

I have heard the songs and listened to the 'warm fuzzy' sermons about how 'you and I' killled Christ. But for this to be 'true', that would mean that WE were capable of 'taking' from Christ what He FREELY offered.

Freely? Freely? Christ's life was offered Freely? Don't think so. It was payment due. [we Christians like to use the term atonement] Nothing free about it at all... Christ paid the PRICE for 'SIN' with HIS 'life'.

Christ submitted to the will of the father. He obeyed. Remember Christ's own words?
Mark 14:36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto you; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what you will.

Was it Christ's will or was he Obeying the will of His father?

Your foolishness is being exposed Imagician.

Stove,

Long time, my friend. We've missed you, (or at least I have, hehehe). Welcome back.

Now, to your reply. Do you mean to tell the good folks out there that I stated something other than the 'truth' in that Christ FREELY offered His life for our sins? I'm confused as to 'why' or even 'how' you could refute this offering.

Christ did INDEED follow the will of THE FATHER in offering up His life for ours. That doesn't alter the 'truth' in ANY way. By the simple statement offered above, Christ DID have a choice to follow the will of His Father or NOT. Otherwise He would NEVER have asked for 'some OTHER way out'. But, as was mandatory for the 'gift' to be offered, Christ followed the FATHER'S will rather than His OWN. His was to 'avoid' what was coming and He ASKED for a reprieve from this responsibility; you offered the scripture that 'states' such YOURSELF. However, no matter HOW badly He wished to avoid what was coming, He chose INSTEAD to follow the will of His Father ALL THE WAY TO THE CROSS.

But, NO ONE FORCED HIM to make the statements that He did nor to 'take the cross'. He did this FREELY for we have the scriptures that PLAINLY state that He COULD have avoided this death by simply DENYING what He was accused of. ONE sentence could have set Him free; 'I am NOT the Son of God'. That's ALL it would have taken to avoid His confrontation with Pontius. His choice instead? He stood up and was obedient unto DEATH. This HE did FREELY. NO ONE WAS THERE TO 'MAKE' HIM DO ANYTHING. His Love for His Father and His love for mankind was STRONG enough for Him to offer WHAT He offered FREELY.

Now, what part of that did you misconstrue the first time? You would indicate that the 'gift' was NOT offered 'freely'. I did NOT say FREE, I said 'freely' as in an adverb, not FREE as in an adjective.

I am completely confused with your statement about MY foolishness. In one statement you exhibit the spirit that you follow and 'don't even realize it'. That IS the nature of following men or 'other gods' though. MOST do it UNAWARE. You offer the words of Christ stating PLAINLY that to hate your brother is 'just as bad as murder' for one has already offered the 'same' emotion towards one's brother by simply 'thinking it' as they would by 'doing it'. and what else does this same scripture point out? That to call one's brother a 'fool' is 'the same as MURDER'. And what have you done? Called 'me' a fool for my offerings. Now 'that' spirit is NOT The Spirit that I follow. I forgive you Stove and can only hope and pray that you too may one day find the truth and that THAT truth may set you free. For this spirit of hate is NOT born of the Father NOR His Son. You offered the scripture, now, do you even understand it?

But, if it's a fool for Christ I MUST be, then So be it. But I don't 'REALLY' think that one MUST be a fool to follow God through His Son and what is 'right'. Just different than the rest of the world.

MEC

 

[stovebolts]

I have heard the songs and listened to the 'warm fuzzy' sermons about how 'you and I' killled Christ. But for this to be 'true', that would mean that WE were capable of 'taking' from Christ what He FREELY offered.

Freely? Freely? Christ's life was offered Freely? Don't think so. It was payment due. [we Christians like to use the term atonement] Nothing free about it at all... Christ paid the PRICE for 'SIN' with HIS 'life'.

Christ submitted to the will of the father. He obeyed. Remember Christ's own words?
Mark 14:36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto you; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what you will.

Was it Christ's will or was he Obeying the will of His father?

Your foolishness is being exposed Imagician.

Stove,

Long time, my friend. We've missed you, (or at least I have, hehehe). Welcome back.

I have to question the we’ve part because as you have stated to me in earlier thread, there is a spiritual battle and quite honestly, when I read your opening statement, a shiver went down the back of my neck as your sentence spoke as the seductive voice of demons. Welcome back?.. No, I’ll just be passing through the cest pool this time.

Moving along, you call me Friend? I do not consider you a neighbor (Luke 10:29) let alone friend. To be frank, how about we call it what it is. Perhaps enemy would be the correct word? (Matthew 5:44, Love = strongs 25 agapao, to love (in a social or moral sense) ) Let us not play games with words here but rather let us speak in the truth that has been shown to us. I am bound to scripture. Know that I do not speak or expose your words (Matthew 15:11) out of hatefulness, but rather that you might repent of your evil ways and draw close to the Lord.

Before I begin, let me state the obvious, which may not be so obvious to other readers. Even Bildad speaks in Truth to Job (Job 18:8-9). But your snare is for those seeking truth as you try to snatch the truth from their mouths. You manipulate your words and take what is not yours for selfish purpose. You do not give to others, you set your snare to take from others as your tactics will show.
Matthew 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and tear you.
You trample and devour the pearls given to the Children of God as your diet, for your diet does not consist of bread. (Matthew 4:4)
I have seen it many times on this forum where pearls are thrown out to swine, and it only serves to strengthen the enemy. You will get only little pearls from me.

This thread is a prime example of your snare for the children of God. You ask a question of others knowing that they will respond as you lay and wait with your trap to devour the truth within them. You manipulate text and distort the truth through half truths. You are a taker, not a giver. What have you given in this thread? From what I can read, you have given a secular, narrow minded view that the Romans are responsible for the death of Christ. The truth is, I am thankful that NRoof shares the simple truth and rejoices that Jesus has risen!

Now, your nakedness will be exposed. I have you in my sights.

[Now, to your reply. Do you mean to tell the good folks out there that I stated something other than the 'truth' in that Christ FREELY offered His life for our sins? I'm confused as to 'why' or even 'how' you could refute this offering.

I believe context defines the word freely. Freely in context to this thread puts the focus on the Romans, not you or I. That is, to push blame on others. Did Adam ‘freely’ eat of the forbidden fruit? According to Adam, it was Eve’s fault and thus, accountability is shifted from self, to those around you. Within the context of the Bible, Christ was the ‘propitiation’. He gave his life out of obedience in submission to the Father.

Christ did INDEED follow the will of THE FATHER in offering up His life for ours.

According to Webster’s, in context with your pretense, here is the correct definition for freely.
1. At liberty; without vassalage, slavery or dependence.
Christ was dependant upon the Father. He was the propitiation. Now, I could agree that Christ gave his life freely in the sense that Christ was God in the flesh, as part of His triune nature. But from the words of a non-Trinitarian, I understand that you do not see it this way and thus, in context to your pretense, your words are false.

That doesn't alter the 'truth' in ANY way. By the simple statement offered above, Christ DID have a choice to follow the will of His Father or NOT.

You just contradicted yourself again… Manipulation of words will get you nowhere but exposed.

Otherwise He would NEVER have asked for 'some OTHER way out'. But, as was mandatory for the 'gift' to be offered,

Tell us of the ‘mandatory gift’. Mandatory denotes something due. Surely something that is freely given is not ‘mandatory’. Round and round we go…

Christ followed the FATHER'S will rather than His OWN.

Sounds like he did it pretty ‘freely’ to me. (tongue in cheek humor)

His was to 'avoid' what was coming and He ASKED for a reprieve from this responsibility; you offered the scripture that 'states' such YOURSELF. However, no matter HOW badly He wished to avoid what was coming, He chose INSTEAD to follow the will of His Father ALL THE WAY TO THE CROSS.

Here is a pearl for you. The cross had ONE purpose. It was to take the life of whoever was on it. The cross did not care that it was Jesus that hung there. All it cared about was taking a life.
But as far as this ‘responsibility’, God’s very nature is love (1 John 4:8) and through love we were both created and redeemed through our creator (Colossians 1:16) . It had ‘very little’ to do with responsibility for that is a human thought with mere human arguments, but rather, it had everything to do with LOVE. He created us in Love, and he redeemed us in that same love.

But, NO ONE FORCED HIM to make the statements that He did nor to 'take the cross'. He did this FREELY for we have the scriptures that PLAINLY state that He COULD have avoided this death by simply DENYING what He was accused of. ONE sentence could have set Him free; 'I am NOT the Son of God'. That's ALL it would have taken to avoid His confrontation with Pontius. His choice instead? He stood up and was obedient unto DEATH. This HE did FREELY. NO ONE WAS THERE TO 'MAKE' HIM DO ANYTHING. His Love for His Father and His love for mankind was STRONG enough for Him to offer WHAT He offered FREELY.

Human argument and I wont’ waist my time responding to it.

Now, what part of that did you misconstrue the first time? You would indicate that the 'gift' was NOT offered 'freely'. I did NOT say FREE, I said 'freely' as in an adverb, not FREE as in an adjective.

I’m glad that you showed your keen knowledge of the English language. I especially liked the ‘adverb’ ‘adjective’ touch as it fit nicely to make the distinction between FREE and FREELY. Kudo’s, as it clearly shows that you are paying attention to what is being written.

I am completely confused with your statement about MY foolishness.

Of course you are.

In one statement you exhibit the spirit that you follow and 'don't even realize it'. That IS the nature of following men or 'other gods' though. MOST do it UNAWARE.

You speak with such knowledge and wisdom, yet you admit to your own confusion. This dichotomy speaks of your lack of true understanding.

You offer the words of Christ stating PLAINLY that to hate your brother is 'just as bad as murder' for one has already offered the 'same' emotion towards one's brother by simply 'thinking it' as they would by 'doing it'. and what else does this same scripture point out? That to call one's brother a 'fool' is 'the same as MURDER'. And what have you done? Called 'me' a fool for my offerings.

With such a great command of the English language that you have exhibited, (adverb, adjective) I can only conclude that you are once again manipulating portions of truth to fit your objective of deducing the deity of Christ. Clearly, I did not call, let alone infer that you were a fool as you very well know. As you know, ‘Fool’ is a noun. A noun is a person, place or thing. Foolish is an adjective. It describes an action.

But, just to make my point even clearer…

Now 'that' spirit is NOT The Spirit that I follow. I forgive you Stove and can only hope and pray that you too may one day find the truth and that THAT truth may set you free. For this spirit of hate is NOT born of the Father NOR His Son. You offered the scripture, now, do you even understand it?

Ahh, Satan’s tactics in play. First he attempts to decimate character through false accusations and misdirected responses in hope of creating doubt and adds a splash of scripture. I especially liked the ‘I forgive you Stove’ part. Tell me, does it feel good when your stroke yourself with such hollow words? Sorry, it didn’t work.

Now, to summarize. For one to sin is foolishness. 1 John 1:8-9 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

I am glad that you make the distinction that you do not follow the Spirit that I follow. (for clarity sake as it shows you know that there is a difference) However, I am not glad, nor does it give me joy that you choose the path you choose.

But, if it's a fool for Christ I MUST be, then So be it. But I don't 'REALLY' think that one MUST be a fool to follow God through His Son and what is 'right'. Just different than the rest of the world.

A fool cannot follow Christ. Another prime example of you manipulating words to fancy your own ears.
Isaiah 32:6 For the foolish person will speak foolishness, and his heart will work iniquity, to practice hypocrisy, and to utter error against the LORD, to make empty the soul of the hungry, and he will cause the drink of the thirsty to fail.
Now then, by your own testimony, you do not follow Christ.

I also find it ironic that you did not dispute my other Jerusalem posts…

Stop your foolishness and repent.

 

[Imagican]

Ah, back to the 'trinity' thing. I guess, from the perspective of those that 'accept trinity', IF Christ WERE God, then there was NOTHING that 'Christ Himself' was ABLE to do since He was NOT Christ BUT God Himself. See how distructive this doctrine IS?

Your belief in, and adherence to this doctrine would even turn you 'against' your neighbor and 'think' that you able to SEPARATE yourself from your brothers SIMPLY to adhere to a 'doctrine'. Christ died for EVERYONE, Stove. Not JUST you and the 'church' you attend. We were COMMANDED to LOVE OUR ENEMIES. Do you love me? For YOU stated that I AM your enemy. Shouldn't you be offering love and prayer for me if you were 'truly' intent upon following the understanding that has been offered by the Father through His Son? Kinda makes you go, Hmmmm, don't it?

Now Stove, is THIS TRULY what Christ taught and offered as example? If this is what 'your' religion teaches, then I have NO use for it. For I accept the gift offered and will TRY my best to understand it so that I too may be able to offer the Love given by the Father through His Son. There is NO room in MY heart for such hate of others or persecution of those that 'disagree' with ME or my interpretation of The Word, (and I DID miss you, my brother).

I will pray that YOU are able to come to the REALIZATION of what has been offered and cease to allow doctrines of men rule your life. I will pray that your eyes be opened thus allowing you to 'see' that there is MORE to what has been offered than an adherence to the principles as laid down by men.

Yes, I had a 'motive' behind this thread. It would be foolish for me to offer ANYTHING without a 'point'. For UNDERSTANDING IS the reason that I am here. Not ONLY my own, but what I am able to offer to others.

Stove, you behave EXACTLY as those that first 'hijacked' Christ from Christians and placed 'THEMSELVES' in HIS place and demanded that others 'follow' THEM instead of the Father through His Son. And not only demanding it, but insisting that ALL shun those that would not accept 'their' teachings. Not ONLY shun, but actually persecute many to death for their refusal to 'follow men' rather than the Father through His Son.

There is NO animosity in MY heart towards you, my friend, (and YOU ARE my friend even if I am not yours, that of course is YOUR choice. But you are UNABLE to elicite the 'same' contempt towards you that you have exhibited towards me. For I love you and ONLY want what's BEST for YOU regardless of what you choose for yourself). I was commanded to, and through an understanding of this command, forgive ALL who offend me. This is WHAT I WILL do as The Spirit strengthens me to overcome what the flesh is unable to.

I have come to offer NOTHING, other than the 'truth' that has been revealed. And through my experiences in this forum, I have found that what most lack the MOST is JUST THAT. What has been given me has been given FREELY and I offer it in the SAME Spirit. That there are those that have been led falsely and will refute what I offer only goes to show what a sad state man's spirit has been allowed to receed from that which it was MEANT to be.

I say again, 'see what a 'state' man's heart becomes when, instead of allowing themselves to be led by The Spirit, they choose instead, to be led by 'other men'. The churches have done YOU no favors, my friend. Only led you down a 'dark path' that only 'resembles' the truth and is filled with mostly contempt for the 'truth'. FREE, is that what you are Stove? Your comments would indicate otherwise. That you are FAR from free, but still bound in bonds of hate and anger. Let it go, my friend. It does NOT have to be this way. There IS freedom to be obtained but ONLY through 'truth' will it be obtainable. So long as you choose to be bound by the limited teachings of men and their 'churches', you are bound to stumble and faulter in the 'dark' just as they do.

It's ALL about LOVE my friend, NOT hate and anger. Once one comes to this understanding they become capable of 'truly' following the Father through His Son.

MEC

 

[BradtheImpaler]

I thought it was going to be a trick question, you know, like, nobody killed him because, according to Trinitarians, he didn't really die?

:smt075

 

[Imagican]

I thought it was going to be a trick question, you know, like, nobody killed him because, according to Trinitarians, he didn't really die?

:smt075

No, Brad, I don't ask 'trick' questions. It seems that it sometimes takes 'trickery' to get an answer to my questions, but the questions themselves have mostly 'obvious' answers.

Yes, I wonder about that exact point at times. IF Christ WAS God, then HOW could He POSSIBLY face death. But then that mystic; But He gave UP being God to take on the 'personna' of a 'man', thing kicks in and then it becomes even MORE confusing. Then, when one realizes that God WAS God when, at the SAME time He WAS Christ, there is an indication that there HAD to be 'two' Gods instead of the ONE that we have been told By God Himself HE IS.

I don't think we are allowed to offer questions concerning 'trinity' anymore though, so I will make every effort possible NOT to discuss 'trinity' any longer. Please take note that I did NOT bring 'trinity' into this discussion on this thread.

Hey Brad, who killed Christ?

MEC

 

[Imagican]

I have heard the songs and listened to the 'warm fuzzy' sermons about how 'you and I' killled Christ. But for this to be 'true', that would mean that WE were capable of 'taking' from Christ what He FREELY offered.

Freely? Freely? Christ's life was offered Freely? Don't think so. It was payment due. [we Christians like to use the term atonement] Nothing free about it at all... Christ paid the PRICE for 'SIN' with HIS 'life'.

Christ submitted to the will of the father. He obeyed. Remember Christ's own words?
Mark 14:36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto you; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what you will.

Was it Christ's will or was he Obeying the will of His father?

Your foolishness is being exposed Imagician.

Stove,

Long time, my friend. We've missed you, (or at least I have, hehehe). Welcome back.

I have to question the we’ve part because as you have stated to me in earlier thread, there is a spiritual battle and quite honestly, when I read your opening statement, a shiver went down the back of my neck as your sentence spoke as the seductive voice of demons. Welcome back?.. No, I’ll just be passing through the cest pool this time.

Moving along, you call me Friend? I do not consider you a neighbor (Luke 10:29) let alone friend. To be frank, how about we call it what it is. Perhaps enemy would be the correct word? (Matthew 5:44, Love = strongs 25 agapao, to love (in a social or moral sense) ) Let us not play games with words here but rather let us speak in the truth that has been shown to us. I am bound to scripture. Know that I do not speak or expose your words (Matthew 15:11) out of hatefulness, but rather that you might repent of your evil ways and draw close to the Lord.

Before I begin, let me state the obvious, which may not be so obvious to other readers. Even Bildad speaks in Truth to Job (Job 18:8-9). But your snare is for those seeking truth as you try to snatch the truth from their mouths. You manipulate your words and take what is not yours for selfish purpose. You do not give to others, you set your snare to take from others as your tactics will show.
Matthew 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and tear you.
You trample and devour the pearls given to the Children of God as your diet, for your diet does not consist of bread. (Matthew 4:4)
I have seen it many times on this forum where pearls are thrown out to swine, and it only serves to strengthen the enemy. You will get only little pearls from me.

This thread is a prime example of your snare for the children of God. You ask a question of others knowing that they will respond as you lay and wait with your trap to devour the truth within them. You manipulate text and distort the truth through half truths. You are a taker, not a giver. What have you given in this thread? From what I can read, you have given a secular, narrow minded view that the Romans are responsible for the death of Christ. The truth is, I am thankful that NRoof shares the simple truth and rejoices that Jesus has risen!

Now, your nakedness will be exposed. I have you in my sights.

[Now, to your reply. Do you mean to tell the good folks out there that I stated something other than the 'truth' in that Christ FREELY offered His life for our sins? I'm confused as to 'why' or even 'how' you could refute this offering.

I believe context defines the word freely. Freely in context to this thread puts the focus on the Romans, not you or I. That is, to push blame on others. Did Adam ‘freely’ eat of the forbidden fruit? According to Adam, it was Eve’s fault and thus, accountability is shifted from self, to those around you. Within the context of the Bible, Christ was the ‘propitiation’. He gave his life out of obedience in submission to the Father.

Christ did INDEED follow the will of THE FATHER in offering up His life for ours.

According to Webster’s, in context with your pretense, here is the correct definition for freely.
1. At liberty; without vassalage, slavery or dependence.
Christ was dependant upon the Father. He was the propitiation. Now, I could agree that Christ gave his life freely in the sense that Christ was God in the flesh, as part of His triune nature. But from the words of a non-Trinitarian, I understand that you do not see it this way and thus, in context to your pretense, your words are false.

That doesn't alter the 'truth' in ANY way. By the simple statement offered above, Christ DID have a choice to follow the will of His Father or NOT.

You just contradicted yourself again… Manipulation of words will get you nowhere but exposed.

Otherwise He would NEVER have asked for 'some OTHER way out'. But, as was mandatory for the 'gift' to be offered,

Tell us of the ‘mandatory gift’. Mandatory denotes something due. Surely something that is freely given is not ‘mandatory’. Round and round we go…

Wow, I just re-read your post and boy what kind of 'double-talk' did you step in to offer: Let's deal with some personal manipulation. I spoke of the 'mandatory' indeed. But NOT of 'choice'. You deliberately left out the rest of the statement in order to 'try' to manipulate what I stated into what YOU wanted to portray it to mean, to others. Wow. It WAS mandatory that Christ follow the Will of The Father for the 'gift' to be offered. HOWEVER, as stated previous, Christ HAD/HAS 'freewill' JUST as WE Do. That means that IF He had NOT chosen to follow the will of The Father, the 'gift' would NOT have been able to BE FULFILLED through Christ. YOU, my friend ARE the manipulator. All I speak, I speak in 'truth'. If I have been decieved, it is through what has been offered by MEN and not that which has been offered through The Spirit. And those that 'truly' are led BY The Spirit can clearly see that I have offered NOTHING other than the 'truth' as I KNOW IT.

Christ followed the FATHER'S will rather than His OWN.

Sounds like he did it pretty ‘freely’ to me. (tongue in cheek humor)

There you go again. Trying to interject that Christ Had NO free will. That is a 'farce' and you know it. For the 'gift' to be offered it HAD to be OFFERED, get it? We took NOTHING from Christ and He gave EVERYTHING, FOR US. That He followed the WILL of The Father takes NOTHING from the freewill that Christ DID/DOES possess. See how twisted YOUR theology becomes when you refuse to accept the 'truth'. You have to twist and 'make up' things to 'fit' your theology. Why not follow what has been offered FREELY, instead. ACCEPT the 'simplicity' that IS Christ Jesus and LET Go of the 'man-made' tradition and theology that you have allowed to darken your path.

His was to 'avoid' what was coming and He ASKED for a reprieve from this responsibility; you offered the scripture that 'states' such YOURSELF. However, no matter HOW badly He wished to avoid what was coming, He chose INSTEAD to follow the will of His Father ALL THE WAY TO THE CROSS.

Here is a pearl for you. The cross had ONE purpose. It was to take the life of whoever was on it. The cross did not care that it was Jesus that hung there. All it cared about was taking a life.
But as far as this ‘responsibility’, God’s very nature is love (1 John 4:8) and through love we were both created and redeemed through our creator (Colossians 1:16) . It had ‘very little’ to do with responsibility for that is a human thought with mere human arguments, but rather, it had everything to do with LOVE. He created us in Love, and he redeemed us in that same love.

But, NO ONE FORCED HIM to make the statements that He did nor to 'take the cross'. He did this FREELY for we have the scriptures that PLAINLY state that He COULD have avoided this death by simply DENYING what He was accused of. ONE sentence could have set Him free; 'I am NOT the Son of God'. That's ALL it would have taken to avoid His confrontation with Pontius. His choice instead? He stood up and was obedient unto DEATH. This HE did FREELY. NO ONE WAS THERE TO 'MAKE' HIM DO ANYTHING. His Love for His Father and His love for mankind was STRONG enough for Him to offer WHAT He offered FREELY.

Human argument and I wont’ waist my time responding to it.

Now, what part of that did you misconstrue the first time? You would indicate that the 'gift' was NOT offered 'freely'. I did NOT say FREE, I said 'freely' as in an adverb, not FREE as in an adjective.

I’m glad that you showed your keen knowledge of the English language. I especially liked the ‘adverb’ ‘adjective’ touch as it fit nicely to make the distinction between FREE and FREELY. Kudo’s, as it clearly shows that you are paying attention to what is being written.

I am completely confused with your statement about MY foolishness.

Of course you are.

In one statement you exhibit the spirit that you follow and 'don't even realize it'. That IS the nature of following men or 'other gods' though. MOST do it UNAWARE.

You speak with such knowledge and wisdom, yet you admit to your own confusion. This dichotomy speaks of your lack of true understanding.

NO, Stove, my confusion is NOT with understanding of 'truth', my confusion consists of understanding how one could make a statement as if they UNDERSTOOD it's implications, and then turn RIGHT around and offer EXACTLY what had been commanded of you NOT to do as one that confesses an emulation of Our Savior. THAT, my friend, IS confusing.

You offer the words of Christ stating PLAINLY that to hate your brother is 'just as bad as murder' for one has already offered the 'same' emotion towards one's brother by simply 'thinking it' as they would by 'doing it'. and what else does this same scripture point out? That to call one's brother a 'fool' is 'the same as MURDER'. And what have you done? Called 'me' a fool for my offerings.

With such a great command of the English language that you have exhibited, (adverb, adjective) I can only conclude that you are once again manipulating portions of truth to fit your objective of deducing the deity of Christ. Clearly, I did not call, let alone infer that you were a fool as you very well know. As you know, ‘Fool’ is a noun. A noun is a person, place or thing. Foolish is an adjective. It describes an action.

I know this Stove, to DENY ones intention is to LIE. I know that to accuse someone of 'being foolish' is NO DIFFERENT than calling them 'a fool'. Manipulation of words is NOT what I do. I simply offer them as 'straight forward' as I am able. EVERYONE here that has followed my posts KNOWS this..........except you, for some odd reason. So, create your 'own' definitions as you will, but it changes nothing. Your intent and malice IS obvious and I pray that a 'change' is in store for your future. It does NOT have to be this way, my brother. Let it go.

But, just to make my point even clearer…

Now 'that' spirit is NOT The Spirit that I follow. I forgive you Stove and can only hope and pray that you too may one day find the truth and that THAT truth may set you free. For this spirit of hate is NOT born of the Father NOR His Son. You offered the scripture, now, do you even understand it?

Ahh, Satan’s tactics in play. First he attempts to decimate character through false accusations and misdirected responses in hope of creating doubt and adds a splash of scripture. I especially liked the ‘I forgive you Stove’ part. Tell me, does it feel good when your stroke yourself with such hollow words? Sorry, it didn’t work.

Stove, if ANYONE has decimated 'your' character, you have done quite a 'good' job yourself. I have not called you ANYTHING or accused you of ANYTHING falsely. I don't believe that it is needed for ME to offer ANYTHING to convince others of 'your nature'. You have done a 'fine' job of it yourself.
Stove, I have confronted DEMONS OUTRIGHT. Witches, Warlocks, and all sorts of 'sons and daughters' of Satan. And you know HOW I was able to 'walk' away from such confrontations? Those SPLASHES of scripture that you would 'make light' of. The Words of Christ and God have been the ONLY weapon needed to defeat these enemies in a 'battle of wits'. So, in answer to your question. there IS certainly an amount of satisfaction when one is able to PROVE the Words of God. For what I offer is NOT of mine own, but it ALWAYS brings about joy to be able to REALIZE the 'truth'. NOTHING LIKE IT. EXPECIALLY when one receives it through LOVE.

Now, to summarize. For one to sin is foolishness. 1 John 1:8-9 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

I am glad that you make the distinction that you do not follow the Spirit that I follow. (for clarity sake as it shows you know that there is a difference) However, I am not glad, nor does it give me joy that you choose the path you choose.

And you are absolutely RIGHT. It is 'obvious' to me that the spirit that you have chosen is NOT The Spirit that I have allowed to guide and strengthen me. AMEN.

But, if it's a fool for Christ I MUST be, then So be it. But I don't 'REALLY' think that one MUST be a fool to follow God through His Son and what is 'right'. Just different than the rest of the world.

Stove, you JUMPED in this one with such an obvious distaste for me and what I offer that you have done little other than outright SHOW this contempt. Even to the point of indicating that you are unable to understand 'simple english'. So fast to dispute my words that I don't believe that you even spent the little bit of time needed to discern their meanings. Do I offend you so? WOW. That's amazing. For all I have attempted to do is offer 'truth'. And 'that's' offensive to you?
You made a 'super' big deal of this 'fool' thing. Please re-read what I stated and see if you are able to undertand the ERROR with which you accuse. You accuse me of being the 'fool', I simply stated that if that's what I am to you, so be it. In my NEXT statement, I made it VERY clear that I PERSONALLY don't believe that it takes a 'fool' to follow God through His Son. One MUST accept that they will HAVE to look at things DIFFERENTLY than the world however. And to the 'world' a fool one probably appears that follows the 'truth'. Just like most consider those that are willing to forgive others FOOLISH in the eyes that are focused on the world. However, those that have experienced the 'truth' realize that this is NOT foolishness but UNDERSTANDING.

A fool cannot follow Christ. Another prime example of you manipulating words to fancy your own ears.
Isaiah 32:6 For the foolish person will speak foolishness, and his heart will work iniquity, to practice hypocrisy, and to utter error against the LORD, to make empty the soul of the hungry, and he will cause the drink of the thirsty to fail.
Now then, by your own testimony, you do not follow Christ.

Stove, hat's off to ya good buddy. I couldn't offer warning enough to those that are 'seeking' the truth, than what you have offered of yourself. I did NOT call myself a 'fool', (though I CERTAINLY am in the eyes of MANY I am SURE), what I STATED was that if it's a 'fool' that 'YOU' would call me, then by ALL means, IT'S a 'fool' I WILL be in your eyes. For if following the 'truth' makes me a fool in YOUR eyes, then I will 'GLADLY' play the part. All I tried to do was 'open' YOUR eyes. For YOU to call me the 'fool' for offering the 'truth' is proof in itself who is 'truthful' and who is offended BY the 'truth'. And I am NOT here to offend YOU or ANYONE else. But, if the 'truth' offends you, by ALL means, be OFFENDED if you WANT.

I also find it ironic that you did not dispute my other Jerusalem posts…

I don't know which posts to which you refer, but if you have offered such rubbish in them as you have here, by all means, PLEASE point them out so that I may attempt to keep them TOO from the possibility of leading others astray.

Stop your foolishness and repent.

I repent daily and most times by the hour. I am one of the BIGGEST sinners on the face of this planet. If not for the 'grace of God' I would ALSO be one of the most DOOMED sinners on the planet. Fortunately for me and others, there IS a God of Love that has offered forgiveness to those that are willing to ASK for and ACCEPT His gift. And I will state again, this time MORE clearly for those that have trouble understanding my words: 'IF it's a fool that I must be IN YOUR eyes, then a fool I WILL be', so long as what I offer IS the 'truth'. And Stove, MOST of what I offer WILL make me a 'fool' in the WORLD'S eyes. That is NO secret.

To summerize: Stove, they treated Christ the SAME way that you have treated me. They ridiculed Him, accused Him of following Satan, they called Him names, I'm sure that if we were face to face you would have 'spit' in mine as well. You have stated OUTRIGHT that I am NOT your neihbor. Wow, that's nice that YOU are able to 'pick and choose' yours, for mine are EVERY soul on the 'face of this planet'. Mine is NOT to judge but to offer FREELY the testimony and witness of my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Mine IS to Love my neighbor and mine ememies. REGARDLESS of their treatment of this 'body' of mine, mine is to LOVE them REGARDLESS. The WORSE they treat me, the MORE love they need from me. The worse they treat me, the MORE forgiveness they NEED, so the MORE I will pray that they receive Our Father's forgiveness and His Spirit INTO their hearts. So, even though you have tried really hard to bring about the 'same' spirit that moves you, I forgive you and love you all the MORE regardless. For this spirit is WEAK, and The Spirit IS STRONG. I will pray that The Spirit somehow be replaced with the spirit that would bring about such misunderstanding and lack of love towards your neighbors. Perhaps one day you will see the error of 'your' ways and submit to the Will of The Father instead. Util then.......

May God Bless You My Brother,

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Look folks. Let's make this REAL simple. Can ANYONE out there tell me WHO killed PAUL? Can ANYONE tell me WHO imprisoned John? Can ANYONE tell me WHO killed Peter? Can ANYONE tell me WHO imprisoned Paul? Now, if these questions have an answer SO does my original question.

Hey guys, those that MURDERED Christ are LONG dead and gone. The power structure that existed on this planet at the time of Christ is LONG DEAD. The Roman civilization LOST it's power HUNDREDS AND HUNDREDS of years ago. So WHY this defending of those that MURDERED Our Savior?

You KNOW the answer AS WELL AS I. Accept the 'truth' and the 'truth' WILL set you FREE. Live in lies and that is ALL you will EVER know. And, the 'TRUTH' IS obtainable. JUST ASK and YOU WILL RECEIVE.

Look at how one looks to others when they AVOID the truth at ALL costs. WHY would ANYONE do this? NO ONE led BY The Spirit is CAPABLE of DENYING the 'TRUTH' when it IS placed before them. There IS a 'father of lies'. His IS to alter the 'truth' and REPLACE it with lies. From MY perspective, he HAS DONE a VERY good job.

MEC

 

[Vic C.]

It really bothers you that out of 12 votes, only two voted for Rome. This is not even an issue of Truth. It has no bearing on one's salvation. I question whether or not this is really an issue of pride. You have been given some of the most honest, from the heart answers, yet you continue to disagree with all but one person.


You might want to ask yourself why it is so important that you be right. Your dislike for Rome is clouding yout thinking.

 

[BradtheImpaler]

Hey Brad, who killed Christ?

The Romans, of course

 

[stovebolts]

Mec,
Once again you distort and manipulate the meaning of scripture (though you give very little scripture anyway, but rather you seem to only comment on others view of scripture. Why is that?) and cover your hypocritical deceit in elusive language under the guise of love. Hence, you continue to multiply your words.

I thought it was going to be a trick question, you know, like, nobody killed him because, according to Trinitarians, he didn't really die?

:smt075

Brad, you also, will not get any pearls. Believe what you must as the truth stands firm regardless of what you believe or are capable of comprehending.

No, Brad, I don't ask 'trick' questions. It seems that it sometimes takes 'trickery' to get an answer to my questions, but the questions themselves have mostly 'obvious' answers.

Ok, so you openly admit that you use trickery, yet we are to ‘trust’ you? I know, I know… it’s what’s in the heart right? Let us tag things for what they are. This is called deceit and manipulation. Obvious isn’t it? Do you honestly believe that we are so blind? Again, stop this foolishness and repent.

Yes, I wonder about that exact point at times.

I believe you dwell on it as your obvious hatred for the RCC truly distorts your view and drives your craving to take away from others what you cannot gain through your own means. This is why you debate it so heavily. You seek not truth, but the pearls of those on this forum to feed your appetite that you might build your case against the kingdom of God. Trinitarians, stop throwing your pearls for it only strengthens the enemy.

IF Christ WAS God,

There’s the doubt folks. If…

then HOW could He POSSIBLY face death.

You clearly don’t understand death…

But then that mystic;

Bad grammar? a semicolon usually denotes an extended sentence right? In regard to the pronoun [that], what are you referring to? BTW, I’m working off a GED here and English really is one of my worst subjects.

But He gave UP being God to take on the 'personna' of a 'man', thing kicks in and then it becomes even MORE confusing.

Your statement starts in doubt [IF Christ WAS God] then it attempts to convolute the subject with subjective comments reinforced with suggestive language [confusing].

The bible is clear on this subject and it is your lack of biblical understanding that causes you to lean on your own understanding.

Then, when one realizes that God WAS God when, at the SAME time He WAS Christ, there is an indication that there HAD to be 'two' Gods instead of the ONE that we have been told By God Himself HE IS.

Actually, it’s I AM… but you knew that and thus, further distort scripture to meet your own subjective, skewed logic.
Folks, the pearls you throw under the guise of “defending the faith†as his ‘trickery’ attempts to seduce your pride, are what have given Imagician his current case against the trinity. The more pearls you throw, the further he will define his theology and the better he will be able to sway those less grounded in the faith.

I don't think we are allowed to offer questions concerning 'trinity' anymore though, so I will make every effort possible NOT to discuss 'trinity' any longer. Please take note that I did NOT bring 'trinity' into this discussion on this thread.

Because you do not use the word Trinity, does not mean that you do not speak about it through your ‘trickery’

Hey Brad, who killed Christ?

At least Brad answers with direct responses.

Do you still miss me?

 

[ttg]

Its probably a moot point on who killed Jesus. The prophecy was going to be fulfilled no matter what. If Pilate had gotten his way and Jesus had been freed, the Jews would have rioted and killed Him anyway.

Pilate's act of washing his hands and declaring himself innocent of having anything to do with the death of Jesus was done publically in front of the near rioting Jewish crowd. Pilate was a weak governor too easily influenced by those around him, including his wife and her dreams. The Jews wanted Jesus killed for blasphemy, Pilate didn't see what they were so upset about, but still ordered His execution after a feeble attempt to set Him free.

I flipped a coin and voted for the Romans.