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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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I
Imagican
Guest
Vic,
I will respond to your post first.
Since it obvious that those that 'know' me are NOT going to 'admit' to what IS obviously the 'truth' for that WOULD offer creedence to MUCH of what I have stated in OTHER threads. I don't fault you for that. But I won't praise you for it either.
And your argument that the MAJORITY MUST BE RIGHT fits 'right' in with the 'worlds' mentality and that of those that yelled loudest for the crucifiction of Our Savior. The majority of Christians on this planet ARE Catholic, Vic. Does that make them RIGHT? If they are right, then ALL the 'rest of us' ARE WRONG.
Nothing more to offer here except that I have NO hate that guides me. ONLY concern. For I HAVE seen how those that honestly attempt to learn the 'truth' have been manipulated by the 'organized' religions once they 'fall' for their 'games', (tradition, doctrine, theology, whatever you want to call it, I would call most of it man-made philosophical garbage. But then I'm just an ignorant, hateful, Catholic bashing, 'trinity denying, one man show kinda guy, so what could I possibly offer those that have been taught by the 'churches'? Majority IS right, right? Or at least 'they' make the 'rules')
Now, on to the 'other' Imagican basher.............
MEC
I will respond to your post first.
Since it obvious that those that 'know' me are NOT going to 'admit' to what IS obviously the 'truth' for that WOULD offer creedence to MUCH of what I have stated in OTHER threads. I don't fault you for that. But I won't praise you for it either.
And your argument that the MAJORITY MUST BE RIGHT fits 'right' in with the 'worlds' mentality and that of those that yelled loudest for the crucifiction of Our Savior. The majority of Christians on this planet ARE Catholic, Vic. Does that make them RIGHT? If they are right, then ALL the 'rest of us' ARE WRONG.
Nothing more to offer here except that I have NO hate that guides me. ONLY concern. For I HAVE seen how those that honestly attempt to learn the 'truth' have been manipulated by the 'organized' religions once they 'fall' for their 'games', (tradition, doctrine, theology, whatever you want to call it, I would call most of it man-made philosophical garbage. But then I'm just an ignorant, hateful, Catholic bashing, 'trinity denying, one man show kinda guy, so what could I possibly offer those that have been taught by the 'churches'? Majority IS right, right? Or at least 'they' make the 'rules')
Now, on to the 'other' Imagican basher.............
MEC
I
Imagican
Guest
Stove,
No, don't miss you now, for as the prodigal son, you have 'returned'. I did miss you though, and 'STILL' love you, my brother.
Once again, let me state, for the record: The ROMANS crucified JESUS CHRIST. The BIBLE PLAINLY states this. I have attempted to ALTER NOTHING. Just looking for a 'little' TRUTH is all.
You accuse my admission of 'trickery' of being deception. If it had 'truly' been deception, I would have denied it and tried to talk 'around it'. What I offered was NO different than what Christ QUITE often did. When those that came to Him and tried to 'trick' Him with the deceptive questions, often He would answer their questions with a question of His OWN. You would indicate that this is 'trickery' in the sense of deception. I contend that when confronted with deception, one is quite often forced into a position to 'play by the 'same' rules that the others have created.
Watch Stove; I KNOW that YOU know the answer to a question. But you insist on NOT answering it 'truthfully'. I have the ability and understanding to 'go around' YOUR deception and 'show others', the folly of 'this game', that you would 'play' with me. At least those that have the ability or desire to discern the 'truth'. You would call that 'trickery', I simply call it 'understanding'. For you see, I have NO USE for the 'games' that many would play and call 'religion'. I seek NOTHING more, NOTHING less than, the TRUTH. No, NOT 'your' truth, but THE TRUTH.
Now, your 'long-winded' tirades accusing me of 'an ulterior motive' may please your darkened heart. They phase me little. As a matter of fact, just as when one that is 'on the brink' of 'exposure' will resort to ANY method or means that they MUST, in order to MASK their intentions or the 'truth', you have brought encouragement rather than discouragement with you accusations. You see, the WORLD 'HATES' the TRUTH. Those that are 'bound' HATE to see those around them that ARE FREE. So, your hateful tirades do NOTHING other than show me and those that 'have a bit of understanding' that the 'truth' is pushing you to allow your 'true colors' to become manifest, RIGHT before our very eyes.
I am NOT here to 'learn' how to attack or defend ANYTHING. My understanding is NOT being developed. I have certainly grown daily, whether here or NOT here, but the understanding that I have been given has NOT faultered in the least. One thing that those on this forum will probably verify WITHOUT DOUBT is that I am NOT wishy-washy in my offering of MY understanding. I am direct and speak OPENLY of my understanding. And it has NOT faultered since I became a member of this forum. And if ANYTHING, through the love and acceptance that I have learned through The Spirit, there is MUCH that I would have offered that I have not for the sake of those that are UNABLE to bear it. I know, MORE 'one man show stuff' right? If that's the way you choose to interpret it, so be it.
NO, you will not entice me with your anger or your insults. Trinity is NOT the issue here with ME. I have stated OPENLY and without deciet that I DO NOT ACCEPT 'trinity' in the way many would present it. You, and 'some' others have tried to indicate that this leaves me 'void' of ANY true understanding. If that's what you must think then I am in NO position to try and 'force' you to 'think' otherwise. I simply offer what has been revealed and leave it up to the hearts of those that are exposed to it to discern the 'truth'.
I told you before, I repent DAILY for my shortcomings, most times 'hourly'. I am forced to 'work' for a living and AM exposed to the 'world' on a 'regular' basis, but rarely does this interfere for more than minutes at a time. So, your continued use of this intended insult really has no bearing on anything other than your own confusion. I forgive you though and pray that your understanding may be increased so that you may one day learn to love your brothers and sisters rather than condemn those that 'disagree' with you.
Oh, and for anyone that would like to discuss 'trinity', feel free to PM ANYTIME over this issue. But, since it has recently been shown that it WILL be cut or stiffled if offered, I will abide by the wishes of those that 'run' the show here. I will NOT openly 'attack' this 'trinity'. But, my understanding IS based on ONE God, and ONE Son. So, this WILL certainly place much of my offerings in a 'different' light than those that DO accept this doctrine. All I ask is that I be offered the 'same' respect that I am willing to offer others. Please don't attempt to 'goad' me into discussions of issues that the forum administrators frown upon. And I would 'hope' that those that are 'in charge' would frown upon this type of behavior as strictly as they have those that do not accept 'trinity'. In other words, I hope that those that would attempt to 'goad' one into discussing subversive topics would be 'warned' as well that this is UNACCEPTABLE behavior here on these forums.
Thanks,
Stove, God Bless You, my Brother,
MEC
No, don't miss you now, for as the prodigal son, you have 'returned'. I did miss you though, and 'STILL' love you, my brother.
Once again, let me state, for the record: The ROMANS crucified JESUS CHRIST. The BIBLE PLAINLY states this. I have attempted to ALTER NOTHING. Just looking for a 'little' TRUTH is all.
You accuse my admission of 'trickery' of being deception. If it had 'truly' been deception, I would have denied it and tried to talk 'around it'. What I offered was NO different than what Christ QUITE often did. When those that came to Him and tried to 'trick' Him with the deceptive questions, often He would answer their questions with a question of His OWN. You would indicate that this is 'trickery' in the sense of deception. I contend that when confronted with deception, one is quite often forced into a position to 'play by the 'same' rules that the others have created.
Watch Stove; I KNOW that YOU know the answer to a question. But you insist on NOT answering it 'truthfully'. I have the ability and understanding to 'go around' YOUR deception and 'show others', the folly of 'this game', that you would 'play' with me. At least those that have the ability or desire to discern the 'truth'. You would call that 'trickery', I simply call it 'understanding'. For you see, I have NO USE for the 'games' that many would play and call 'religion'. I seek NOTHING more, NOTHING less than, the TRUTH. No, NOT 'your' truth, but THE TRUTH.
Now, your 'long-winded' tirades accusing me of 'an ulterior motive' may please your darkened heart. They phase me little. As a matter of fact, just as when one that is 'on the brink' of 'exposure' will resort to ANY method or means that they MUST, in order to MASK their intentions or the 'truth', you have brought encouragement rather than discouragement with you accusations. You see, the WORLD 'HATES' the TRUTH. Those that are 'bound' HATE to see those around them that ARE FREE. So, your hateful tirades do NOTHING other than show me and those that 'have a bit of understanding' that the 'truth' is pushing you to allow your 'true colors' to become manifest, RIGHT before our very eyes.
I am NOT here to 'learn' how to attack or defend ANYTHING. My understanding is NOT being developed. I have certainly grown daily, whether here or NOT here, but the understanding that I have been given has NOT faultered in the least. One thing that those on this forum will probably verify WITHOUT DOUBT is that I am NOT wishy-washy in my offering of MY understanding. I am direct and speak OPENLY of my understanding. And it has NOT faultered since I became a member of this forum. And if ANYTHING, through the love and acceptance that I have learned through The Spirit, there is MUCH that I would have offered that I have not for the sake of those that are UNABLE to bear it. I know, MORE 'one man show stuff' right? If that's the way you choose to interpret it, so be it.
NO, you will not entice me with your anger or your insults. Trinity is NOT the issue here with ME. I have stated OPENLY and without deciet that I DO NOT ACCEPT 'trinity' in the way many would present it. You, and 'some' others have tried to indicate that this leaves me 'void' of ANY true understanding. If that's what you must think then I am in NO position to try and 'force' you to 'think' otherwise. I simply offer what has been revealed and leave it up to the hearts of those that are exposed to it to discern the 'truth'.
I told you before, I repent DAILY for my shortcomings, most times 'hourly'. I am forced to 'work' for a living and AM exposed to the 'world' on a 'regular' basis, but rarely does this interfere for more than minutes at a time. So, your continued use of this intended insult really has no bearing on anything other than your own confusion. I forgive you though and pray that your understanding may be increased so that you may one day learn to love your brothers and sisters rather than condemn those that 'disagree' with you.
Oh, and for anyone that would like to discuss 'trinity', feel free to PM ANYTIME over this issue. But, since it has recently been shown that it WILL be cut or stiffled if offered, I will abide by the wishes of those that 'run' the show here. I will NOT openly 'attack' this 'trinity'. But, my understanding IS based on ONE God, and ONE Son. So, this WILL certainly place much of my offerings in a 'different' light than those that DO accept this doctrine. All I ask is that I be offered the 'same' respect that I am willing to offer others. Please don't attempt to 'goad' me into discussions of issues that the forum administrators frown upon. And I would 'hope' that those that are 'in charge' would frown upon this type of behavior as strictly as they have those that do not accept 'trinity'. In other words, I hope that those that would attempt to 'goad' one into discussing subversive topics would be 'warned' as well that this is UNACCEPTABLE behavior here on these forums.
Thanks,
Stove, God Bless You, my Brother,
MEC
Vic C.
Member
Imagican,
Thanks so much for putting words in my "mouth"; words like majority and hate. What I suggested is that it is pride and not truth that is motivationg you to keep pushing and pushing this issue. I said this wasn't even a matter of salvation, yet you continue to argue. So, if it isn't a matter of salvation or wanting to right, what is it? Why do we have you adhere to your notion that it was Rome that killed Jesus? It does't affect my relationship with the Lord. Does it affect yours?
Thanks so much for putting words in my "mouth"; words like majority and hate. What I suggested is that it is pride and not truth that is motivationg you to keep pushing and pushing this issue. I said this wasn't even a matter of salvation, yet you continue to argue. So, if it isn't a matter of salvation or wanting to right, what is it? Why do we have you adhere to your notion that it was Rome that killed Jesus? It does't affect my relationship with the Lord. Does it affect yours?
I
Imagican
Guest
vic said:
Vic,
Your words NOT those that I 'chose' for you. Please note what you offered that I responded to: It really bothers you that out of 12 votes, only two voted for Rome. Thus indicating that I MUST be wrong for the 'majority' voted in a 'different' direction.
But, since those that have responded to this thread have OBVIOUS objections to the 'truth', I will make this my 'final' post on this thread. I am sorry that I have brought up such a 'touchy' subject. I didn't realize that it was SO contraversial.
Luke 18:31-33
31Then he took unto him the twelve, and said unto them, Behold, we go up to Jerusalem, and all things that are written by the prophets concerning the Son of man shall be accomplished.
32For he shall be delivered unto the Gentiles, and shall be mocked, and spitefully entreated, and spitted on:
33And they shall scourge him, and put him to death: and the third day he shall rise again.
He shall be 'DELIVERED' unto THE GENTILES. And they shall scourge him, and PUT HIM TO DEATH.
Now, I don't know how ANYONE that claims to have an understanding of scripture could POSSIBLY deny that which is offered PLAINLY. And I find it AMAZING that there would be those that offer DEFENSE of those that Murdered Christ. ABSOLUTELY AMAZING.
No, Vic, little to do with Salvation. But MUCH to do with UNDERSTANDING. Also goes a LONG way towards showing what I have offered through MOST of my posts. The churches and 'their ability' to 'WHITE WASH' some things and create others CONTRARY to The Word.
YES, I DO wish for others to UNDERSTAND. And if I must KEEP plugging UNTIL admission takes place, that is USUALLY what I will do.
Vic, there IS more to understanding than simply 'accepting' what someone else offers. And there is MORE to understanding than ONE simple 'idea'. Many times, it takes MANY 'pieces' of knowledge to come to an understanding of 'truth'. And if one or two of these 'pieces' is 'left out', one can EASILY create 'their OWN' truth. I have simply made an effort to place things in perspective in order for those that truly seek understanding to be able to grasp MUCH that has NEVER been offered through the 'churches'.
The churches have been NOTORIOUS LIARS. Vic. I did NOT make them this way. Don't blame me, I'm just a messenger. And the CC has probably LED the pack in their deception of the masses. I am NOT of the persuasion that 'chooses' to allow deception to flourish. Of course, to those that are led by their noses BY the churches, what I offer is straight from 'Satan', but then that's how they were ABLE to 'protect' their deceptions. Anytime someone came along and 'spoke out' against their teachings, they ostracised them OR WORSE, convincing 'thier FLOCK', to AVOID ANYONE that would 'speak out' against thier teachings or THEY TOO were LOST. Pretty nifty way of 'stiffling' the 'truth'. It has worked for THOUSANDS of years. It's nothing NEW.
Yes, over and over again in my arguments against 'trinity', I have brought up the MYSTERY of WHY God would reveal such an important doctrine to those that DIDN'T even KNOW Him. Hide it from His CHOSEN PEOPLE, but choose those that murdered Christ to reveal this to. Over and over again I have been accused of being 'hate driven' and WITHOUT understanding concerning these issues. I was simply curious as to how DEEPLY the churches had been able to ingrain this, 'WE KILLED' Christ thing. Obviously they have done a pretty impressive job for the replies in this thread speak for themselves.
And Vic, I think you know that I have MUCH respect for you and your offerings. We don't always agree but have been able to agree to disagree in a respectable manner. I hope that this NEVER changes and that we can BOTH benefit from the understandings of each other. But in this one, once again, we obviously disagree.
I didn't offer this thread to the fledglings. I HAVE offered MUCH for those that haven't yet made a decision to give their lives to God. But this one was intended for those that KNEW where I was heading with this thread to start with. They know who they are and a couple have shown that they would NOT accept the 'truth' REGARDLESS.
Now, I will leave it at this: I have offered scripture itself that STATES who KILLED Christ. That one would continue to deny this is NO SURPRISE. For there were almost 1000 people that followed James Jones to their deaths for the 'sake of lies'. NO SURPRISE my friend for there ARE many out there that are COMPLETELY reliant upon MEN to guide them. Even after being exposed to the WORD, there are those that will ignore IT, and accept the teachings of men instead.
Bless you My Brother,
MEC
stovebolts
Member
Imagician,
Let me again be frank.
You speak of love, that love is the center of everything. Your words are surrounded and lavished in love filled words and I applaud your perseverance. I believe that you honestly mean what you say and it is good to see you being straight forward.
But these are a few of my issues with your postings and tell me, are you able to understand them?
You say that I show hatred in my post. How are you to judge my motive (by what measure, please give book, chapter and verse)? How are you to judge my heart? You see Imagician, I am not moved by hatred, I am motivated through concern for you and thus I call you to repentance that you may know the full salvation in Christ Jesus.
I am aware how you may see my words toward you as hatred. Rest assured, there is no hatred in my words toward you, nor has there been. You speak of discernment. Can you discern the difference between hate and love? Yes, sometimes when we are being attacked, it can feel like hate. But that does not make it hatred. Likewise, other accounts could be looked at as love if we let each other do what they like, but in turn, could actually be hatred.
Tell me know if I am wrong, and I will apologize for my forward words toward you. But this, I want your direct response on.
You have made it obvious on this board that you have no respect for the Roman Catholic Church. You have made this so apparent at times that it looks to me like hate because within hate, is always a distorted view skewed in manipulation and half truths. Admit it, you hate the Roman Catholic Church don’t you? Am I wrong here? (please continue with straight talk, not clouded words multiplied by words written in grandure and eloquence)
Hatred for anything, especially in access is not healthy (Yet there are things that God even hates). It clouds our vision and keeps us from the Glory of God. You’ve heard the verse, For ALL have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God. Tell me, what do you ‘SEE’ when you read this verse? I see a fallen world that fails to give Honor to God. You see, when we fail to glorify God (this is an action, what we do and how we do it, it’s not just lip service), we loose our Glory because our Glory is in Christ Jesus. We are mere servants and we must serve through Christ if we are to bring honor to God. In serving Christ, we find our reward. Within the Trinity, we find our peace. The Trinity is not an evil RCC piece of dogma. It is a wonderful expression of God’s great love, for within it, we are able to see the very nature, the very heart of who God is. When I see the bent you have against the RCC, I am saddened because from what I see, it blinds you from the Glory of God.
So the question comes, how are we to serve Christ. (and this is a salvation issue). I do not believe that we can serve Christ through hate because hate is a veil that separates and hides us from Christ. (Not Christ from us) Which brings me to love. Love covers a multitude of sins, but there is a line when love becomes tough love. This is biblical and I could show you instance after instance. Look at Acts 7, Stephen had great love for his persecutors, but he didn’t beat around the bush either. He told them the way it was. Same thing with John the Baptist. Jesus even stated in Luke , ‘What did you go expecting to see? A reed blown by the wind?’. My words to you were not in hate, but in love and concern.
So tell me know. If I am wrong, I will apologize. Can you see how your extreme dislike for the RCC is limiting your own perception of who Christ is? I am not advocating that you jump in and embrace the RCC.
Also, tell me this. Why is it so important to you, that the Romans take what appears to be the full blame for the death of Christ? Rome at this point has nothing to do with the RCC right? (…you know there are some southerners that are still talking about the civil war…) What is your full angle on this matter and why wasn’t most of the peoples responses acceptable to you?
Jeff
Let me again be frank.
You speak of love, that love is the center of everything. Your words are surrounded and lavished in love filled words and I applaud your perseverance. I believe that you honestly mean what you say and it is good to see you being straight forward.
But these are a few of my issues with your postings and tell me, are you able to understand them?
You say that I show hatred in my post. How are you to judge my motive (by what measure, please give book, chapter and verse)? How are you to judge my heart? You see Imagician, I am not moved by hatred, I am motivated through concern for you and thus I call you to repentance that you may know the full salvation in Christ Jesus.
I am aware how you may see my words toward you as hatred. Rest assured, there is no hatred in my words toward you, nor has there been. You speak of discernment. Can you discern the difference between hate and love? Yes, sometimes when we are being attacked, it can feel like hate. But that does not make it hatred. Likewise, other accounts could be looked at as love if we let each other do what they like, but in turn, could actually be hatred.
Tell me know if I am wrong, and I will apologize for my forward words toward you. But this, I want your direct response on.
You have made it obvious on this board that you have no respect for the Roman Catholic Church. You have made this so apparent at times that it looks to me like hate because within hate, is always a distorted view skewed in manipulation and half truths. Admit it, you hate the Roman Catholic Church don’t you? Am I wrong here? (please continue with straight talk, not clouded words multiplied by words written in grandure and eloquence)
Hatred for anything, especially in access is not healthy (Yet there are things that God even hates). It clouds our vision and keeps us from the Glory of God. You’ve heard the verse, For ALL have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God. Tell me, what do you ‘SEE’ when you read this verse? I see a fallen world that fails to give Honor to God. You see, when we fail to glorify God (this is an action, what we do and how we do it, it’s not just lip service), we loose our Glory because our Glory is in Christ Jesus. We are mere servants and we must serve through Christ if we are to bring honor to God. In serving Christ, we find our reward. Within the Trinity, we find our peace. The Trinity is not an evil RCC piece of dogma. It is a wonderful expression of God’s great love, for within it, we are able to see the very nature, the very heart of who God is. When I see the bent you have against the RCC, I am saddened because from what I see, it blinds you from the Glory of God.
So the question comes, how are we to serve Christ. (and this is a salvation issue). I do not believe that we can serve Christ through hate because hate is a veil that separates and hides us from Christ. (Not Christ from us) Which brings me to love. Love covers a multitude of sins, but there is a line when love becomes tough love. This is biblical and I could show you instance after instance. Look at Acts 7, Stephen had great love for his persecutors, but he didn’t beat around the bush either. He told them the way it was. Same thing with John the Baptist. Jesus even stated in Luke , ‘What did you go expecting to see? A reed blown by the wind?’. My words to you were not in hate, but in love and concern.
So tell me know. If I am wrong, I will apologize. Can you see how your extreme dislike for the RCC is limiting your own perception of who Christ is? I am not advocating that you jump in and embrace the RCC.
Also, tell me this. Why is it so important to you, that the Romans take what appears to be the full blame for the death of Christ? Rome at this point has nothing to do with the RCC right? (…you know there are some southerners that are still talking about the civil war…) What is your full angle on this matter and why wasn’t most of the peoples responses acceptable to you?
Jeff
For sake of this discussion I would like to change “killed†to crucify because I don’t believe Jesus to be dead.
This topic is sad and humorous at the same time. I thought it might be wise to take a good look at what the Bible has to say about this.
Matthew 27
15 Now at the feast the governor was accustomed to releasing to the multitude one prisoner whom they wished.
16 And at that time they had a notorious prisoner called Barabbas.
17 Therefore, when they had gathered together, Pilate said to them, “Whom do you want me to release to you? Barabbas, or Jesus who is called Christ?â€Â
18 For he knew that they had handed Him over because of envy.
19 While he was sitting on the judgment seat, his wife sent to him, saying, “Have nothing to do with that just Man, for I have suffered many things today in a dream because of Him.â€Â
20 But the chief priests and elders persuaded the multitudes that they should ask for Barabbas and destroy Jesus.
21 The governor answered and said to them, “Which of the two do you want me to release to you?â€Â
They said, “Barabbas!â€Â
22 Pilate said to them, “What then shall I do with Jesus who is called Christ?â€Â
They all said to him, “Let Him be crucified!â€Â
23 Then the governor said, “Why, what evil has He done?â€Â
But they cried out all the more, saying, “Let Him be crucified!â€Â
24 When Pilate saw that he could not prevail at all, but rather that a tumult was rising, he took water and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, “I am innocent of the blood of this just Person. You see to it.â€Â
25 And all the people answered and said, “His blood be on us and on our children.â€Â
26 Then he released Barabbas to them; and when he had scourged Jesus, he delivered Him to be crucified.
So what do we get from this. Pilate (a Roman) knew Jesus was a just man and the charges brought against him were nothing more than envy. Pilate’s wife (a Roman) also begged her husband to have nothing to do with this. Pilate then washed his hands of the matter (physically and spiritually) stating he was “innocent of the blood of this just personâ€Â. By today’s standards we know he wasn’t completely innocent because he still allowed Jesus to be crucified.
The chief priests and elders incited the crowd to pick Jesus over Barabbas. The crowd then goes on to say “His blood be on us and on our children.†Here we clearly see the Jews taking full responsibility for the choice they made.
Let’s continue on…
27 Then the soldiers of the governor took Jesus into the Praetorium and gathered the whole garrison around Him.
28 And they stripped Him and put a scarlet robe on Him.
29 When they had twisted a crown of thorns, they put it on His head, and a reed in His right hand. And they bowed the knee before Him and mocked Him, saying, “Hail, King of the Jews!â€Â
30 Then they spat on Him, and took the reed and struck Him on the head.
31 And when they had mocked Him, they took the robe off Him, put His own clothes on Him, and led Him away to be crucified.
So here we have a garrison of Romans torturing and mocking Jesus and leading him to be crucified. Notice it doesn’t say all Roman did this but only a garrison of Roman soldiers. We also know from before that not all Romans felt the way this particular garrison of soldiers did. We know at least Pilate and his wife were against this and I can only assume there were more who felt this way.
So what do we know so far:
1) It was the Jews who falsely accused Jesus and decided he should be the one crucified.
2) It was a handful of Romans who carried out the crucifixion.
The underlying understanding here is that it was not all Jews or Romans in either case.
So back to the original question.
Who crucified Christ?
From the OP it is clear (at least to me) that Imagican is asking who physically crucified Jesus. That being the case the only possible answer is the Romans. But again only a handful would be considered responsible and not all Romans.
Who was responsible for Jesus being crucified?
Here it is plain that the chief priests and elders along with the crowd they managed to entice who chose Jesus over Barabbas. Again it must be noted that this does not include all Jews.
Notice to this point you or I are not part of the equation. We were not physically responsible to the crucifixion of Jesus but we are the reason he was crucified.
Romans 3
21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference,
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunishedâ€â€
26 he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
This is the gift that Jesus gave us freely. He took the punishment we deserve (death) because of our sins against each other and more specifically our sins against God. This gift was also given all people equally and is not diminished because of your nationality or your denomination.
What saddens me most about this people are arguing about this instead of rejoicing in the sacrifice Jesus made for us. This is also one of the reasons I so seldom post here. We should be spending our time glorifying God and building up others in Jesus. Not tearing each other down with hidden motives to try and convince people we are right. We should correct when we believe people have strayed but not be so arrogant that we believe we have the full truth of God and everyone else is wrong.
Sorry this is so long but I had a lot to say and I’ve only covered a small portion of it here.
This topic is sad and humorous at the same time. I thought it might be wise to take a good look at what the Bible has to say about this.
Matthew 27
15 Now at the feast the governor was accustomed to releasing to the multitude one prisoner whom they wished.
16 And at that time they had a notorious prisoner called Barabbas.
17 Therefore, when they had gathered together, Pilate said to them, “Whom do you want me to release to you? Barabbas, or Jesus who is called Christ?â€Â
18 For he knew that they had handed Him over because of envy.
19 While he was sitting on the judgment seat, his wife sent to him, saying, “Have nothing to do with that just Man, for I have suffered many things today in a dream because of Him.â€Â
20 But the chief priests and elders persuaded the multitudes that they should ask for Barabbas and destroy Jesus.
21 The governor answered and said to them, “Which of the two do you want me to release to you?â€Â
They said, “Barabbas!â€Â
22 Pilate said to them, “What then shall I do with Jesus who is called Christ?â€Â
They all said to him, “Let Him be crucified!â€Â
23 Then the governor said, “Why, what evil has He done?â€Â
But they cried out all the more, saying, “Let Him be crucified!â€Â
24 When Pilate saw that he could not prevail at all, but rather that a tumult was rising, he took water and washed his hands before the multitude, saying, “I am innocent of the blood of this just Person. You see to it.â€Â
25 And all the people answered and said, “His blood be on us and on our children.â€Â
26 Then he released Barabbas to them; and when he had scourged Jesus, he delivered Him to be crucified.
So what do we get from this. Pilate (a Roman) knew Jesus was a just man and the charges brought against him were nothing more than envy. Pilate’s wife (a Roman) also begged her husband to have nothing to do with this. Pilate then washed his hands of the matter (physically and spiritually) stating he was “innocent of the blood of this just personâ€Â. By today’s standards we know he wasn’t completely innocent because he still allowed Jesus to be crucified.
The chief priests and elders incited the crowd to pick Jesus over Barabbas. The crowd then goes on to say “His blood be on us and on our children.†Here we clearly see the Jews taking full responsibility for the choice they made.
Let’s continue on…
27 Then the soldiers of the governor took Jesus into the Praetorium and gathered the whole garrison around Him.
28 And they stripped Him and put a scarlet robe on Him.
29 When they had twisted a crown of thorns, they put it on His head, and a reed in His right hand. And they bowed the knee before Him and mocked Him, saying, “Hail, King of the Jews!â€Â
30 Then they spat on Him, and took the reed and struck Him on the head.
31 And when they had mocked Him, they took the robe off Him, put His own clothes on Him, and led Him away to be crucified.
So here we have a garrison of Romans torturing and mocking Jesus and leading him to be crucified. Notice it doesn’t say all Roman did this but only a garrison of Roman soldiers. We also know from before that not all Romans felt the way this particular garrison of soldiers did. We know at least Pilate and his wife were against this and I can only assume there were more who felt this way.
So what do we know so far:
1) It was the Jews who falsely accused Jesus and decided he should be the one crucified.
2) It was a handful of Romans who carried out the crucifixion.
The underlying understanding here is that it was not all Jews or Romans in either case.
So back to the original question.
Who crucified Christ?
From the OP it is clear (at least to me) that Imagican is asking who physically crucified Jesus. That being the case the only possible answer is the Romans. But again only a handful would be considered responsible and not all Romans.
Who was responsible for Jesus being crucified?
Here it is plain that the chief priests and elders along with the crowd they managed to entice who chose Jesus over Barabbas. Again it must be noted that this does not include all Jews.
Notice to this point you or I are not part of the equation. We were not physically responsible to the crucifixion of Jesus but we are the reason he was crucified.
Romans 3
21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference,
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunishedâ€â€
26 he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
This is the gift that Jesus gave us freely. He took the punishment we deserve (death) because of our sins against each other and more specifically our sins against God. This gift was also given all people equally and is not diminished because of your nationality or your denomination.
What saddens me most about this people are arguing about this instead of rejoicing in the sacrifice Jesus made for us. This is also one of the reasons I so seldom post here. We should be spending our time glorifying God and building up others in Jesus. Not tearing each other down with hidden motives to try and convince people we are right. We should correct when we believe people have strayed but not be so arrogant that we believe we have the full truth of God and everyone else is wrong.
Sorry this is so long but I had a lot to say and I’ve only covered a small portion of it here.
stovebolts
Member
NRoof said:
Well said,.. and point taken.
stovebolts
Member
[/quote:4321b]FineLinen said:
Imagician,
Ok, well… FineLinen’s post hit a cord with me.
Apologetics isn’t for me. I don’t hate you, and I haven’t attempted to bash you for my own pleasure.
Love covers a multitude of sins. It’s easy to say, but hard to put in practice at times. With our greatest strengths, are our greatest weaknesses? Perhaps you are not my enemy, I am struggling with this, let me explain as I attempt to discern the truth.
I don’t really care if you believe in the trinity or not (Though I believe the trinity can enrich ones life) . What I do care about is if you adamantly oppose it and purposfully lead others away from it. I also don’t really care if you’re against the RCC, as long as you’re constructive in your battle. But what I do care about is when I see somebody such as yourself who has such great potential wasting that potential and getting duped by who I believe is Satan, to do his bidding and not even realize it. (and I honestly believe that you have great potential and yes, I have read many of your posts). You see, where I struggle, is when a person directly goes out of his way to oppose the Trinity, which to me, is a direct attack on God. A neighbor is defined by the one that extends grace to another in need. We all need to be a neighbor. A brother is one who is justified in Christ and belongs to the true Church of Christ. An enemy is one who is against Christ. So, can you understand why I call you enemy? If not, let me add to my words. When you look at the RCC, what do you see? I’ll tell you what I see. I see people striving to honor God just like you and I. Some things I agree with while others I don’t. But the fact remains, that we all need help.
Trust me; I would rather call you brother.
But the fact remains that you have went out of your way to disprove the Trinity for what I perceived as for no other reason than to attack the RCC. This is what I mean when I call out your hatred. From my perspective, it clouds your thinking. Again, key word being ‘from my perspective’.
A quick history lesson. The RCC was never truly or officially established until the great schism of 1054. (10??) Before then, it was divided by region. East and West. At that time, they were considered the One Catholic Church, which meant the one Universal Church. In other words, God was not a respecter of men and salvation was for anyone who would call upon the name of the Lord. Most of what I’ve heard you speak against in regard to the RCC, stem from after the schism and does not trickle down earlier than the 1200’s. Some of it dabbles around 250. Today, it may appear that there is much diversity within the Orthodox Church, yet they remain unified through grace for one another (and this includes the RCC). I believe this speaks volumes.
My point is this though. You are fallible, I am fallible. The RCC is no exception. But to strike a balance, why is it so hard to give credit to the RCC for preserving the gospels to the point where Martin Luther could reform it? Fact is, the way history worked out, you probably wouldn’t have heard the gospel if it wasn’t for the RCC. I look at it kind of like how Paul looked at the Jews.
Romans 3:1-2 What advantage then has the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because unto them were committed the oracles of God.
I struggled with psychology much in the way you struggle with the RCC. It wasn’t until I learned that Paul (among some other great folk in history) were well versed in the ‘psychology’ of the day and actually overlaid the gospel into modern day thought that my animosity for psychology simmered down.
Regardless of my struggles, do you see the similarities between the Jews and the RCC? Currently, both the Orthodox Christians and RCC holds much truth that mainstream Christianity will never enjoy simply because ‘WE’ don’t want to be ‘LIKE’ them…and it is much easier to rage against one another than it is to resolve our petty differences. What a sad, sad reason…
But you know what bugs me the most? Perhaps you’re a brother that has fallen, or one that is raising himself up and this is your journey. MEC, we all have our journeys and in that regard, I am no better than you. It does me good to be reminded of this. Philippians 2:12-16 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God who works in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmuring and disputing: That you may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom you shine as lights in the world; Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither labored in vain.
If this is the case, then I have sinned greatly. I will pray that this is the case and that the Spirit will guide you to resolution through God's word.
From here on out, I give my word publiclly to never go after you in ‘attack’ mode. Also, I know myself enough to keep my nose out of apologetics. Shame on me, and shame on you.
Perhaps one day we can come together unified to edify one another in a different thread.
Peace,
In Christ,
Jeff
I
Imagican
Guest
Nroof,
Nice post.
Stove,
Welcome home, my brother. We may not be as 'different' as you have supposed. Each of us IS different and that's why we were refered to as 'A BODY', each part with it's INDIVIDUAL purpose for the benefit of THE BODY. I know that from a 'traditional' perspective, much of what I offer may NOT 'seem' to edify. I can ONLY say that my means DO have an end. I can do NOTHING without being led. You may think that I am led by something 'other than' God. That is certainly your perogative. No hard feelings there.
Guys and Gals that have been offended or have misunderstood the 'meaning' behind my post, forgive me if you don't understand. Those that DO know what I am refering to KNOW what I am talking about. There WAS/IS a 'reason' for this thread. You may not like it, but I am NOT here to make friends with the WORLD. Far from it. I am here to offer the 'truth' as I understand it. I know, I know, MY TRUTH, right. If that's what you gather from it, so be it.
So, as stated previous, what has been offered here has been fulfilled. Nothing lost, but perhaps a little gained. That's ALL I am able to do. Just do yourselves a favor; simply consider this a continuation, of sorts, to 'other' posts similarly related, and there IS understanding of 'truth' to be found here.
I did NOT come here with the intention of BASHING anyone or anything. I came in the hopes of 'opening eyes'. NO, not to persecute or point fingers, simply to offer understanding that goes WAY beyond simply accusations or finger pointing. For those that 'truly' seek knowledge, perhaps I have planted a seed that will one day blossom. NO, not into HATE, but the TRUTH.
Stove, apology un-needed. I love you man. That wasn't false humility, IT"S the TRUTH. It's good that you are willing to humble yourself? and open your mind and your heart in such a manner. God Bless You, my friend,
MEC
Nice post.
Stove,
Welcome home, my brother. We may not be as 'different' as you have supposed. Each of us IS different and that's why we were refered to as 'A BODY', each part with it's INDIVIDUAL purpose for the benefit of THE BODY. I know that from a 'traditional' perspective, much of what I offer may NOT 'seem' to edify. I can ONLY say that my means DO have an end. I can do NOTHING without being led. You may think that I am led by something 'other than' God. That is certainly your perogative. No hard feelings there.
Guys and Gals that have been offended or have misunderstood the 'meaning' behind my post, forgive me if you don't understand. Those that DO know what I am refering to KNOW what I am talking about. There WAS/IS a 'reason' for this thread. You may not like it, but I am NOT here to make friends with the WORLD. Far from it. I am here to offer the 'truth' as I understand it. I know, I know, MY TRUTH, right. If that's what you gather from it, so be it.
So, as stated previous, what has been offered here has been fulfilled. Nothing lost, but perhaps a little gained. That's ALL I am able to do. Just do yourselves a favor; simply consider this a continuation, of sorts, to 'other' posts similarly related, and there IS understanding of 'truth' to be found here.
I did NOT come here with the intention of BASHING anyone or anything. I came in the hopes of 'opening eyes'. NO, not to persecute or point fingers, simply to offer understanding that goes WAY beyond simply accusations or finger pointing. For those that 'truly' seek knowledge, perhaps I have planted a seed that will one day blossom. NO, not into HATE, but the TRUTH.
Stove, apology un-needed. I love you man. That wasn't false humility, IT"S the TRUTH. It's good that you are willing to humble yourself? and open your mind and your heart in such a manner. God Bless You, my friend,
MEC
Thank you for the kind words.Imagican said:
Being that you said there is a reason for this topic I was wondering if you would explain it for my edification. Please be straight forward as I don't read between the lines very well. I am truly interested in what you have to say but I personally prefer getting right to the point and discussing that as opposed to taking the scenic tour.Imagican said:
Thanks,
Norm
Sounds good- but the churches teach he NEVER died....