Who raised Christ from the dead?

[RND]

Not much time so a quick question:
I think we all know why His body had to die but why did His spirit have to die as well? For what purpose?

Why do you believe His spirit died?

I can't answer for Rick, but I can only answer for myself. Jesus Christ was a man, God in the flesh. He never relied on His divinity but used that divinity to completely keep the connection with the Father.

Jesus did not possess a "dual" nature. Body and soul. That is pagan and stems from the Greeks which inherited it from ancient Babylon. Jesus was a "living soul" as you and I are as well.

 

[RND]

Note: francisdesales you believe something entirely different than I do. You believe that man enjoys "immortality" outside the presence and power of God....I do not. Man is a "living soul" he does not possess a "living soul" outside the work of God.

Clearly, God "raised" Jesus Christ from the grave by the power of the Holy Spirit.

The Word of God died? Can you point to me where Scriptures make this assertion?

Sure.

Jhn 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Jhn 18:32 That the saying of Jesus might be fulfilled, which he spake, signifying what death he should die.

Rom 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

The flesh that the Word took the form of died. Death is a separation of spirit from the body.

No, death is when a person, a "living soul" dies.

Thus, it is theologically incorrect (although liturgically and devotionally, it can be said that "God died") to say that the Word of God died and required resurrection.

God did die.

The Word never left the "side of the Father".

Christ wasn't in heaven and on earth at the same time.

That is a human anthroporphism, since God is EVERYWHERE.

God is certainly "omnipresent." But now, you'll have to explain to me why Christ taught us to pray and why He Himself prayed, just as we do.

God did not send His Wisdom somewhere while He remained in heaven without It.

Right....He sent His Son.

The Word took on human form, entered time and space, etc.

And that "form" died.

HOWEVER, the Word ALSO remained with the Father and the Spirit, KEEPING all things in existence and eternally being begotten.

Then why did Jesus have to die to make way for the Spirit?

And never died. Jesus died in the flesh. His Divinity that took up flesh never died.

Jesus never relied on "His" divinity on earth....He relied on the Father's.

 

[Sinthesis]

Not much time so a quick question:
I think we all know why His body had to die but why did His spirit have to die as well? For what purpose?

Why do you believe His spirit died?

I can't answer for Rick, but I can only answer for myself. Jesus Christ was a man, God in the flesh. He never relied on His divinity but used that divinity to completely keep the connection with the Father.

Jesus did not possess a "dual" nature. Body and soul. That is pagan and stems from the Greeks which inherited it from ancient Babylon. Jesus was a "living soul" as you and I are as well.

Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

 

[francisdesales]

Note: francisdesales you believe something entirely different than I do. You believe that man enjoys "immortality" outside the presence and power of God....I do not. Man is a "living soul" he does not possess a "living soul" outside the work of God.

No, RND, I do not believe that, nor do I know where you got that idea, since I have not said I possess a living soul "outside the work of God".

Jhn 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Jhn 18:32 That the saying of Jesus might be fulfilled, which he spake, signifying what death he should die.

Rom 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

None of these say "the Word of God" died...

It says the CHRIST died. The visible form taken up by the Word, mentioned in your first verse. The Word of God CANNOT die, for He is LIFE ITSELF!

That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; (For the life was manifested, and we have seen [it], and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;) 1 John 1:1-2

No, death is when a person, a "living soul" dies.

A person is not a "living soul" in the manner that I am using the term. Scripture often mixes up the terminology between spirit, soul, and body.

Christ wasn't in heaven and on earth at the same time.

I didn't say He was. I said the Word of God was in heaven with the Father. God is present everywhere, so there is no need to subject God to the laws of space.

God is certainly "omnipresent." But now, you'll have to explain to me why Christ taught us to pray and why He Himself prayed, just as we do.

As an example - and that the Christ was HUMAN, as well as God. He said as much when He prayed before raising Lazarus in John's Gospel.

Right....He sent His Son.

So His Son, the Word of God, left the Father???

And that "form" died.

Just the form that the Word took on, not the Word Himself.

Then why did Jesus have to die to make way for the Spirit?

Make way for the Spirit? Please explain.

Jesus never relied on "His" divinity on earth....He relied on the Father's.

There is only ONE divinity. The Word of God in the form of Jesus Christ "muted" it, although, from time to time, this divinity emerged, such as when HE forgave sins (didn't ask God), performed miracles (didn't ask God), or rose from the dead (didn't ask God). Under His own abiliity AS God, He did all these things. His divinity was not separate from the God in heaven. The Word in the flesh drew on His Divinity - since He only does what the Father does and it is through this Word that all creation was created and is maintained...

Regards

 

[RND]

Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

spirit = pnuema (it's where the English "pnuematic" comes from) = from pnew - pneo 4154; a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit:--ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind. Compare yuch - psuche 5590.

He commended His "breath."

ghost = ekpneo = from ek - ek 1537 and pnew - pneo 4154; to expire:--give up the ghost.

Figurative language "to die."

 

[Sinthesis]

Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

spirit = pnuema (it's where the English "pnuematic" comes from) = from pnew - pneo 4154; a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit:--ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind. Compare yuch - psuche 5590.

He commended His "breath."

ghost = ekpneo = from ek - ek 1537 and pnew - pneo 4154; to expire:--give up the ghost.

Figurative language "to die."

Yeah, keep reading, lest you believe Christ bequeathed His last 'carbon dioxide and nitrogen' into God's airtight 'hands'.

 

[RND]

No, RND, I do not believe that, nor do I know where you got that idea, since I have not said I possess a living soul "outside the work of God".

Hmmm, so believe what then?

None of these say "the Word of God" died...

Yes they do! If you want to play games of "semantics" I'm not interested. Jesus Christ is the "Word of God." Jesus Christ died on the cross at Calvary. Jesus Christ was "resurrected."

David, by the power of the Holy Spirit, even wrote about this:

Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Psa 86:13 For great [is] thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.

It says the CHRIST died.

Jesus Christ, the "Word of God."

A person is not a "living soul" in the manner that I am using the term. Scripture often mixes up the terminology between spirit, soul, and body.

"Scripture" never "mixes" anything up....men do this, not scripture.

I didn't say He was. I said the Word of God was in heaven with the Father. God is present everywhere, so there is no need to subject God to the laws of space.

Jesus was a "man" on earth and completely subject to every law of God. Gravity, etc.

As an example - and that the Christ was HUMAN, as well as God. He said as much when He prayed before raising Lazarus in John's Gospel.

Prayer is direct communication with God.

So His Son, the Word of God, left the Father???

Yes! Was Jesus in heaven while on earth?

Phil 2:6-8 NLT "Though he was God, he did not demand and cling to his rights as God. He made himself nothing; he took the humble position of a slave and appeared in human form. And in human form he obediently humbled himself even further by dying a criminal's death on a cross."

Just the form that the Word took on, not the Word Himself.

Yes, even the "form" of the "Word" itself died.

Make way for the Spirit? Please explain.

Are you serious?

Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Jhn 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

There is only ONE divinity. The Word of God in the form of Jesus Christ "muted" it, although, from time to time, this divinity emerged, such as when HE forgave sins (didn't ask God), performed miracles (didn't ask God), or rose from the dead (didn't ask God). Under His own abiliity AS God, He did all these things. His divinity was not separate from the God in heaven. The Word in the flesh drew on His Divinity - since He only does what the Father does and it is through this Word that all creation was created and is maintained...

What? What book are you reading? Jesus never did anything that wasn't done in the Father's name, to glorify the Father.

Jhn 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

Jhn 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. Jhn 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father [is] in me, and I in him.

Jhn 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

 

[RND]

Yeah, keep reading, lest you believe Christ bequeathed His last 'carbon dioxide and nitrogen' into God's airtight 'hands'.

Interesting. So, if Jesus flew off to Heaven at death why the need for the resurrection? After death, after the cross, did Jesus come down from heaven, reenter into His physical body, and appear before men?

Tell me, do you think a "Christian" would use this symbol to describe another Christian?

 

[Rick W]

Not much time so a quick question:
I think we all know why His body had to die but why did His spirit have to die as well? For what purpose?

Why do you believe His spirit died?

I don't.

Please, a little less opinion on the poster.
I don't think is going to help.
:nod

 

[francisdesales]

Hmmm, so believe what then?

On what subject? The soul is certainly not something we get without God, which is what you accuse me of believing...

None of these say "the Word of God" died...

Yes they do! If you want to play games of "semantics" I'm not interested. Jesus Christ is the "Word of God." Jesus Christ died on the cross at Calvary. Jesus Christ was "resurrected."

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of what happened when the "Word took flesh". The Word was not CONFINED to this flesh! Thus, when the flesh died, what makes you think the ENTIRE WORD also died with Jesus on the cross??? Note that the Scriptures do not say that the Word of God died. There is a reason for that, and it is not "semantics". I am not playing games. Jesus was resurrected, which means that the flesh was vivified again.

Now, if the Word had died with the Christ on the cross, how is it that the universe STILL existed? The Scriptures tell us that it is through the Word that existence of creation continues.

Furthermore, God does not consist of parts. Thus, part of Him, His Wisdom, did not die while the Spirit and the Father remained alive. God is simple and ineffable. God is impassible. There is never a time where God exists without His Word, His Logos, His Intellect.

When speaking liturgically, we CAN say "God died", since it is a recognition of who the CHRIST was - God in the flesh. However, it is NOT the other way around. The Word was not fully contained within the time and space of the body of flesh of Christ!

David, by the power of the Holy Spirit, even wrote about this:

Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Psa 86:13 For great [is] thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.

Again, refering to the Messiah, the Son of God in the flesh.

Jesus was a "man" on earth and completely subject to every law of God. Gravity, etc.

That is not under scrutiny. We are viewing things from the point of view of the pre-existent Word, not the composite Being called Jesus Christ who was God and man.

Prayer is direct communication with God.

Prayer is mediated through the Word, which is God, of course. But can't a Person speak to Himself?

Yes! Was Jesus in heaven while on earth?

No! I never said He was. The Word of God was with the Father AND in the flesh.

Phil 2:6-8 NLT "Though he was God, he did not demand and cling to his rights as God. He made himself nothing; he took the humble position of a slave and appeared in human form. And in human form he obediently humbled himself even further by dying a criminal's death on a cross."

That is an incorrect citation of the Word of God.

It says "though He was in the form of God", not "He was God".

That being said, don't forget God's omnipresence...

Yes, even the "form" of the "Word" itself died.

How does an invisible Being who is not subject to time and space die from lack of oxygen or blood??? Please. You are taking liturgical proclamations way too literally. The FLESH taken up by the Word died, not the Word Himself!!! The form TAKEN UP died...

Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Jhn 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

I was serious, I didn't know what you meant by 'make way for'.

This is all quite easy. Jesus was going to rise under His own power. An incredible teaching that was doubted. Only with that actually HAPPENING and the coming of the Spirit to explain the cognitive dissonance that occured by God appearing in FLESH would they be able to handle such truths...

There is only ONE divinity. The Word of God in the form of Jesus Christ "muted" it, although, from time to time, this divinity emerged, such as when HE forgave sins (didn't ask God), performed miracles (didn't ask God), or rose from the dead (didn't ask God). Under His own abiliity AS God, He did all these things. His divinity was not separate from the God in heaven. The Word in the flesh drew on His Divinity - since He only does what the Father does and it is through this Word that all creation was created and is maintained...

What? What book are you reading? Jesus never did anything that wasn't done in the Father's name, to glorify the Father.

Did I say otherwise???

Again, you are inventing arguments that I never make...

Jesus proved His power, His DIVINE power by doing things that God does without calling upon God, since He Himself was God. Divinity lay hidden within the Christ and it manifested Itself for the Apostles to see, as per 1 John 1:1-2.

Regards

 

[Rick W]

Rick, as a Seventh-day Adventist you know that I believe that when then "body" dies the "person" dies.

No, I didn't know that.

 

[Rick W]

Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

spirit = pnuema (it's where the English "pnuematic" comes from) = from pnew - pneo 4154; a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit:--ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind. Compare yuch - psuche 5590.

He commended His "breath."

ghost = ekpneo = from ek - ek 1537 and pnew - pneo 4154; to expire:--give up the ghost.

Figurative language "to die."

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

OK, so God is a breath or a current of air, a breeze.
:o

 

[RND]

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

OK, so God is a breath or a current of air, a breeze.
:o

Notice the "capitalization" of the "S" signifying that this is a "Holy Spirit?" Let's read the definition again.

from pnew - pneo 4154; a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit:--ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind. Compare yuch - psuche 5590.

The "figurative implication" Rick is that this is simply referring to God. Now, is God a "Spirit?" Yes. A "breath of air?" Yes, of course! What keeps your lungs filled? Who put that oxygen there?

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

God "breathed" the "breath of life."

 

[Rick W]

Show me one bible version that translates the Greek word pnuema in Luke 23:46 as "breath" and you may have a case.


Matthew 14:26 And when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, It is a spirit; and they cried out for fear.

Luke 24:37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
Luke 24:38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Acts 23:6 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.
Acts 23:7 And when he had so said, there arose a dissension between the Pharisees and the Sadducees: and the multitude was divided.
Acts 23:8 For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both.

Paul said, "I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee"
Paul believed spirits existed.

RND, was Paul wrong?

 

[RND]

Show me one bible version that translates the Greek word pnuema in Luke 23:46 as "breath" and you may have a case.

Rick, I gave it to you.

from pnew - pneo 4154; a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit:--ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind. Compare yuch - psuche 5590.

There are two "spirits" used in Luke 23:46. "Spirit" in the captial, meaning the "Holy Spirit" and "spirit" meaning in a state of being, i.e. "mental disposition."

Matthew 14:26 And when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, It is a spirit; and they cried out for fear.

Luke 24:37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
Luke 24:38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

Acts 23:6 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.
Acts 23:7 And when he had so said, there arose a dissension between the Pharisees and the Sadducees: and the multitude was divided.
Acts 23:8 For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both.

Paul said, "I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee"
Paul believed spirits existed.

RND, was Paul wrong?

Not at all. I believe there are "spirits" all around. Evil spirits and good spirits. I believe people can have an "evil" spirit residing in them or with them, such as the demoniac did or I do or you do in the form of the Holy Spirit.

Satan and his angels are on earth and Satan is, "....the prince of the power of the air...." - Eph 2:2

air = aer = from aemi (to breathe unconsciously, i.e. respire; by analogy, to blow); "air" (as naturally circumambient):--air. Compare yucw - psucho 5594.

spirit = pneuma = from pnew - pneo 4154; a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit:--ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind. Compare yuch - psuche 5590.

 

[Sinthesis]

Yeah, keep reading, lest you believe Christ bequeathed His last 'carbon dioxide and nitrogen' into God's airtight 'hands'.

Tell me, do you think a "Christian" would use this symbol to describe another Christian?

Sorry, I didn't intend as a personal attack, but only as commentary on the absurdity of the verse as I had 'translated' it. By choosing the meaning of 'spirit' as 'breath' rather than the other definitions available, the entire verse's meaning becomes screwy. Hence
What could be seen (given an alternative definition of 'spirit') as a dramatic moment in the Passion of Christ becomes a verse about a bodily function. However, as you are a Seventh-day Adventist, I can see that you would have other reasons for choosing 'breath', possibly related to psychopannychism or thnetopsychism; big words which I can only cut-and-paste.

Interesting. So, if Jesus flew off to Heaven at death why the need for the resurrection? After death, after the cross, did Jesus come down from heaven, reenter into His physical body, and appear before men?

Well, for starters it was to full fill prophecy and let his followers know that indeed something new had happened under the sun. So, yes, after death, after the cross, Jesus did come down from heaven, reenter into His physical body, and appear before men.

 

[Sinthesis]

[quote="Rick W":aco2vaf3]Not much time so a quick question:
I think we all know why His body had to die but why did His spirit have to die as well? For what purpose?

Why do you believe His spirit died?

I don't.
[/quote:aco2vaf3]
Sorry, I thought you were being rhetorical.

 

[RND]

Sorry, I didn't intend as a personal attack, but only as commentary on the absurdity of the verse as I had 'translated' it. By choosing the meaning of 'spirit' as 'breath' rather than the other definitions available, the entire verse's meaning becomes screwy. Hence

Your apology has been accepted. As far as the east is from the west....

I see your "interpretation" just as incorrect as you may view mine. I look at things that everyone is entitled to be wrong and your belief system doesn't interfere with mine. If we have to attack people, call them names or use icons that insinuate they have a "screw loose" it may be an indication that our beliefs are not as secure as we may think they are.

What could be seen (given an alternative definition of 'spirit') as a dramatic moment in the Passion of Christ becomes a verse about a bodily function. However, as you are a Seventh-day Adventist, I can see that you would have other reasons for choosing 'breath', possibly related to psychopannychism or thnetopsychism; big words which I can only cut-and-paste.

Right. I let the Bible be my guide. If you can find a way to convince me that those in Matthew 27:52-53 had their dead bodies "re-energized" from a spirit that was in heaven that came back to earth, and transformed those bodies into "glorified" bodies when all evidence in the Bible would suggest otherwise have at it, you may very well change my mind.

Was anyone that Jesus "resurrected" given a "glorified" body? Lazarus, the little girl, etc.

Well, for starters it was to full fill prophecy and let his followers know that indeed something new had happened under the sun.

That doesn't answer the question however.

So, yes, after death, after the cross, Jesus did come down from heaven, reenter into His physical body, and appear before men.

Really? Any scripture you'd care to hang your hat in confirming this POV? I seem to recall Jesus Christ ascension to heaven as being an extremely visible, not secret.

Act 1:9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. Act 1:10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Act 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

His "departure" was visible and His "return" will be visible as well.

 

[Rick W]

Rick,

Do you remember the words of Christ upon His death? "My Father, why hath thou foraken me?" Doesn't this SHOW that The Spirit of God was, by FATE, forced to ABANDON Christ upon His DEATH. That Jesus HAD to ACTUALLY DIE. That means, for at least tha moment before until AFTER His death, Christ was ALONE AS A MAN. Abandoned by The Spirit of God for the sake of SIN. For Christ to literally DIE for the sins of mankind, God, who WILL NOT ACCEPT SIN, HAD to literally ABANDON Christ and allow Him to LITERALLY DIE for sin.

Now, at WHAT point did the Spirit of God RETURN to Christ? I believe that it was upon the MOMENT that The Spirit 'brought Him BACK'. That at that MOMENT of His ressurection, The Spirit RETURNED.

Now, IF Chirst TRULY were dead, He could NOT have brought HIMSELF back to LIFE. NOT if He were TRULY DEAD.

While there has been much discussion of Flesh, Spirit and Soul, The Spirit of God was NOT IN CHRIST at the moment PRIOR to His death when the above mentioned words were uttered. Otherwise, these words are FALSE. Either God DID abandon Christ, or He didn't. But the words uttered out of HIs own mouth plainly point to a moment when Christ was "ON HIS OWN" in the flesh. He was a MAN. Subject to the sin, the pain, EVERYTHING that EVERY ONE of us is subject to. The power bestowed upon HIm previous was GONE. He was LEFT to deal with the weight of the world ON HIS OWN.

It wasn't the PAIN and SUFFERING that Christ FEARED when He prayed in the garden. It was the KNOWLEDGE that for 'a time', He would BE ALONE. UTTERLY. Without the love of God to comfort Him. It was THIS that terrified Him. So long as The Spirit comforted Him, He had little problem dealing with the physical aspects of torture and death. But the Spiritual aspect MUST have been TERRIFYING. Think about it. Talk about FAITH................
Blessings,

MEC

Abandonment? Maybe that's what it looks like to you but it's not.
Jesus Christ, ever the teacher, even unto death, those words are to remind us of a Psalm of David...


Psa 22:1 <To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David.> My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

Psa 22:24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.

Read the entire psalm. It's superb!

I think there's a lesson here for all of us from the words uttered on the cross by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. :yes
I see no abandonment. I see trust and knowledge of a faithful God from Jesus and I believe He knew scripture. And I don't doubt one bit that those who heard Him knew exactly what He was telling them.

Those were the last words said to mankind from Christ while He was with us. What better words than those could He have spoken... to trust in God even during adversity by reminding us of what is written in a psalm of David.
THAT is wisdom!! And a prophesy fulfilled.

 

[epistemaniac]

John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
John 2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
John 2:21 But he spake of the temple of his body.

John 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
John 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.



Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

Acts 10:40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;

Who?

God.

That Jesus must be God, that the Trinity is true is exactly why this is not a "problem" passage. For those who DO deny the deity of Christ, and thus the Trinity, they have an unsolvable problem. Unless Jesus is God, the Bible contradicts itself.

blessings,
ken