Who raised Christ from the dead?

[Rick W]

I have answered your questions.
The problem of acceptance lies in the fact you believe The Word died as well as Christ's body.
Therefore Christ does not have the power He said He has and He didn't raise it up as He said He would.

Christ had a body AND spirit, The Word.

 

[RND]

I have answered your questions.

Not very well Rick.

The problem of acceptance lies in the fact you believe The Word died as well as Christ's body.

I believe that Jesus Christ died and was raised again by the word of God.

Therefore Christ does not have the power He said He has and He didn't raise it up as He said He would.

That's right, that all came from the Father Rick.....do you deny that? Christ didn't do any of this on His own.

Christ had a body AND spirit, The Word.

What was He baptized with Rick? Words or the actual living, breathing Holy Spirit of God? Rick, look at it this way. If Christ raised Himself from the grave then He had no need for the Father. If that's the case, why did Jesus pray to the Father?

Rick, are you suggesting that God in Christ didn't die? Are you suggesting that Jesus never truly divested Himself of His divine nature? That Christ never had to completely rely on the Promise of God the Father?

I think all you've managed to do Rick is bring up more questions that call into question your understanding of scripture. One thin I might suggest is doing a word search and study on the word: "raised."

Since you like to quote John alot Rick also do a word study and search on the word: "glorify." Did Jesus ever do anything to Glorify Himself or God the Father? Even once?

 

[Rick W]

Did The Word die?

 

[RND]

Did The Word die?

No. Of course not. Did Jesus Christ die?

John 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

John 18:32 That the saying of Jesus might be fulfilled, which he spake, signifying what death he should die.

1Cr 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 1Cr 15:13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 1Cr 15:14 And if Christ be not risen, then [is] our preaching vain, and your faith [is] also vain. 1Cr 15:15 Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 1 Cr 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 1Cr 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins.

Christ Jesus died and was raised again by God the Father through the Holy Spirit. At least Rick, that's what the "Word" tells me.

 

[Rick W]

So what is your take on His statement, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."

 

[RND]

So what is your take on His statement, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."

Raised by God by the Father through the Holy Spirit. The "old" temple was definitely destroyed and His body is now the entire collection of believers that have ever lived or who will ever live.

Rom 12:5 So we, [being] many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

1Cr 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

1Cr 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

 

[Rick W]

The body Christ referred to was His physical body, the temple in which a spirit dwelt, as Paul wrote about, a place for the indwelling of spirit.
A temple is always a place, a thing, whether earthly or heavenly. Nowhere is the word "temple" used to mean a collection of believers. A congregation of believers, yes. A collection of believers as a church, yes. A body of believers, yes. But never a temple of believers.
Nowhere in the definition of temple will you find it's meaning as a collection of believers.
You're saying the word "temple" means "church". It doesn't. Christ did not say "church", He said "temple"... a place whether considered earthly or heavenly.



TEMPLE

–noun
1. an edifice or place dedicated to the service or worship of a deity or deities.
2. (usually initial capital letter) any of the three successive houses of worship in Jerusalem in use by the Jews in Biblical times, the first built by Solomon, the second by Zerubbabel, and the third by Herod.
3. a synagogue, usually a Reform or Conservative one.
4. an edifice erected as a place of public worship; a church, esp. a large or imposing one.
5. any place or object in which God dwells, as the body of a Christian. I Cor. 6:19.
6. (in France) a Protestant church.
7. (in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) a building devoted to administering sacred ordinances, principally that of eternal marriage.
8. a building, usually large or pretentious, devoted to some public use: a temple of music.
9. (initial capital letter) either of two establishments of the medieval Templars, one in London and the other in Paris.
10. (initial capital letter) either of two groups of buildings (Inner Temple and Middle Temple) on the site of the Templars' former establishment in London, occupied by two of the Inns of Court.
11. a building used by the Templars in the U.S.
12. a building used by any of various fraternal orders.

 

[RND]

The body Christ referred to was His physical body, the temple in which a spirit dwelt, as Paul wrote about, a place for the indwelling of spirit.

So then are you saying that members, individuals of the church, aren't part of Christ's "physical" body? Are members of the "church" not a "physical?"

A temple is always a place, a thing, whether earthly or heavenly. Nowhere is the word "temple" used to mean a collection of believers. A congregation of believers, yes. A collection of believers as a church, yes. A body of believers, yes. But never a temple of believers.

I said the "body" that of the individual is home of the "Holy Spirit." I think I was fairly clear on that.

Nowhere in the definition of temple will you find it's meaning as a collection of believers.

Individual stones in a "spiritual" temple brother.

You're saying the word "temple" means "church".

I said to such a thing Rick.

It doesn't. Christ did not say "church", He said "temple"... a place whether considered earthly or heavenly.

Rick, I think you need to read the verses I quoted one more time. Go slower this time.

Raised by God by the Father through the Holy Spirit. The "old" temple was definitely destroyed and His body is now the entire collection of believers that have ever lived or who will ever live.

Rom 12:5 So we, [being] many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

1Cr 12:27 Now ye (you) are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

1Cr 3:16 Know ye not that ye (you) are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

 

[Sinthesis]

It seems to me this is all a big furball about the nature of Christ.

Christ raised Himself from the dead. This means His own Spirit raised His own body. If Christ was but a human raised from the dead by the Father or the Holy Spirit, then He is no different from Lazarus. Go worship Lazarus, as he also was raised by God. Which of course is the point; when you deny that Christ raised Himself, you deny His Divinic nature.

 

[RND]

It seems to me this is all a big furball about the nature of Christ.

Christ raised Himself from the dead.

Then why did He ask for the Father to glorify Him?

This means His own Spirit raised His own body.

As a man on earth who did Christ rely on and why then is Christ our example?

If Christ was but a human raised from the dead by the Father or the Holy Spirit, then He is no different from Lazarus.

That just it, Christ was fully a man and fully divine. Yet Christ never relied on His divinity but that of His Father's. That, in essence, is what made Christ divine and able to be our example....He fully and completely surrendered Himself to the will of the Father.

Go worship Lazarus, as he also was raised by God.

That's true.....but what did Lazarus do to deserve worship?

Which of course is the point; when you deny that Christ raised Himself, you deny His Divinic nature.

Not at all! I believe just the opposite. By recognizing Jesus Christ's desire and willingness to surrender to the will of the Father it underscores His divinity which enabled Him to do the Father's will completely.

Gal 1:3 Grace [be] to you and peace from God the Father, and [from] our Lord Jesus Christ, Gal 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

Jesus gave Himself, of Himself, "according to the will of God and our Father."

 

[shad]

It seems to me this is all a big furball about the nature of Christ.

Christ raised Himself from the dead. This means His own Spirit raised His own body. If Christ was but a human raised from the dead by the Father or the Holy Spirit, then He is no different from Lazarus. Go worship Lazarus, as he also was raised by God. Which of course is the point; when you deny that Christ raised Himself, you deny His Divinic nature.

Jesus is the Lamb of God, not anyone else. Besides, Lazarus was not sinless man; there is no comparison, there is no one like Jesus as the Lamb of God. There is no less value just because His Father raised Him up whatsoever.

 

[Paidion]

1 Peter 3:18 (New International Version)
18For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit,

Simply a false translation!

Both the word "body" (actually "flesh") and the word "spirit" are in the dative case, and are thus parallel. It should be "put to death in the flesh and made alive in the spirit" (or would you have it "put to death by the flesh but made alive by the spirit"?)

The following translations render the last three words "in the spirit":
ASV, Murdoch, NASB, RSV, NRSV, ESV, ERV, JB2000, Philips, Rotherham, YLT, Darby, and Douay.

The few who render it "by the Spirit" have been influenced a little too much by the AV (King James):

AV, Calvin, NKJV, KJ21, and NIV

 

[Imagican]

Rick,

Do you remember the words of Christ upon His death? "My Father, why hath thou foraken me?" Doesn't this SHOW that The Spirit of God was, by FATE, forced to ABANDON Christ upon His DEATH. That Jesus HAD to ACTUALLY DIE. That means, for at least tha moment before until AFTER His death, Christ was ALONE AS A MAN. Abandoned by The Spirit of God for the sake of SIN. For Christ to literally DIE for the sins of mankind, God, who WILL NOT ACCEPT SIN, HAD to literally ABANDON Christ and allow Him to LITERALLY DIE for sin.

Now, at WHAT point did the Spirit of God RETURN to Christ? I believe that it was upon the MOMENT that The Spirit 'brought Him BACK'. That at that MOMENT of His ressurection, The Spirit RETURNED.

Now, IF Chirst TRULY were dead, He could NOT have brought HIMSELF back to LIFE. NOT if He were TRULY DEAD.

While there has been much discussion of Flesh, Spirit and Soul, The Spirit of God was NOT IN CHRIST at the moment PRIOR to His death when the above mentioned words were uttered. Otherwise, these words are FALSE. Either God DID abandon Christ, or He didn't. But the words uttered out of HIs own mouth plainly point to a moment when Christ was "ON HIS OWN" in the flesh. He was a MAN. Subject to the sin, the pain, EVERYTHING that EVERY ONE of us is subject to. The power bestowed upon HIm previous was GONE. He was LEFT to deal with the weight of the world ON HIS OWN.

It wasn't the PAIN and SUFFERING that Christ FEARED when He prayed in the garden. It was the KNOWLEDGE that for 'a time', He would BE ALONE. UTTERLY. Without the love of God to comfort Him. It was THIS that terrified Him. So long as The Spirit comforted Him, He had little problem dealing with the physical aspects of torture and death. But the Spiritual aspect MUST have been TERRIFYING. Think about it. Talk about FAITH................
Blessings,

MEC

 

[RND]

"...and made alive in the spirit..."

By whom?

Also, it would be helpful to examine what the various translations say....

NLT - 1Pe 3:18 -
Christ also suffered when he died for our sins once for all time. He never sinned, but he died for sinners that he might bring us safely home to God. He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit

NIV - 1Pe 3:18 -
For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit

ESV - 1Pe 3:18 -
For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit

The bottom line?

oti kai cristoV apax peri amartiwn epaqen dikaioV uper adikwn ina hmaV prosagagh tw qew qanatwqeiV men sarki zwopoihqeiV de tw pneumati

He was made alive, that which was once dead, zwopoihqeiV by, through, in, from, the Holy Spirit. It almost goes without saying frankly.

 

[Rick W]

RND,
I'm not pointing out any error or contradiction but am still getting an idea of what it is you believe. Please, with that in mind could you clarify a misunderstanding I may have with the following. Is there something you meant to say but didn't?

But the word "did" die.....It was "raised" again by God the Father, through the Holy Spirit.

Did The Word die?

No. Of course not. Did Jesus Christ die?

 

[RND]

RND,
I'm not pointing out any error or contradiction but am still getting an idea of what it is you believe. Please, with that in mind could you clarify a misunderstanding I may have with the following. Is there something you meant to say but didn't?

But the word "did" die.....It was "raised" again by God the Father, through the Holy Spirit.

[quote="Rick W":3vyrgwet]Did The Word die?

No. Of course not. Did Jesus Christ die?

[/quote:3vyrgwet]

Yes, Rick - I was aware I did this the minute I hit the submit button and knew some explanation would be in order. Jesus Christ is indeed the "Word of God" and on the day Jesus Christ died on the cross He actually died physically - it would be unnecessary to be resurrected if He didn't die. Paul tells us plainly: "Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:" - 2 Timothy 2:8 "And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, [even] Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come." 1 Thess 1:10 It can't be any more plain that Jesus Christ, "The Word of God" died, was buried in the tomb and was raised from the grave. The "Word" died.

But the "Word" was raised from the dead......the "Word" didn't stay dead. The "Word" lived again. The "Word" took His place on the right hand of the Father, etc. etc. The "Word" died, the "Word" was raised from the dead, the "Word" lived again, and the "Word" lives today in the hearts of those who accept the "Word" as their Lord and Savior. As the old hymnal goes, "You ask me how I know He lives....He lives, He lives within my heart!"

The "Word" is alive.

 

[Rick W]

Not much time so a quick question:
I think we all know why His body had to die but why did His spirit have to die as well? For what purpose?

 

[Sinthesis]

Not much time so a quick question:
I think we all know why His body had to die but why did His spirit have to die as well? For what purpose?

Why do you believe His spirit died?

 

[RND]

Not much time so a quick question:
I think we all know why His body had to die but why did His spirit have to die as well? For what purpose?

Rick, as a Seventh-day Adventist you know that I believe that when then "body" dies the "person" dies. Man does not possess a "dual" nature of body and "soul." Man is a "living soul." I consider the evidence in both the Torah and Tanakh as well as the New Testament as overwhelming that at death life ceases to exist and that the Hellenistic "dually of man" is simple paganism.

That said, to me it makes even more noteworthy and more remarkable the power of God to resurrect the person in his "glorified body." Jesus Christ was resurrected into a "glorified" body (just as we will be), that got hungry and yet could walk through walls. He didn't come back from heaven after three days in paradise only to be "reinserted" into a "glorified" body. In other words, Jesus didn't have a "spirit" or a "spiritual man" that floated off to heaven at death only to come back later, in this case shortly less than 3 days.

That's why the "resurrection" of Jesus Christ by God the Father of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob through the work of the Holy Spirit is so remarkable, so incredibly fascinating, and so desirable to me that it is almost inconceivable how people can miss this.

One question that has never been answered in any satisfactory way to me is simply this: If Jesus Christ didn't go straight to heaven at death, why do we assume we do when we die?

 

[francisdesales]

But the "Word" was raised from the dead......the "Word" didn't stay dead.

The Word of God died? Can you point to me where Scriptures make this assertion?

The flesh that the Word took the form of died. Death is a separation of spirit from the body. What died (or separated) was the HUMAN flesh, separated from its human spirit. But the Word of God did not itself die. It EXPERIENCED death because it was intimately joined to the flesh. However, we should be careful in making such statements - since God cannot literally die, nor can His Word, His Logos, Reasoning, etc., die, since it is THIS WORD that keeps the universe in existence. (eg. Col 1:17)

Would anyone say that the Word of God "increased in wisdom and stature (Luke 2:52)" because Jesus, as a young boy, increased in wisdom and stature??? i should hope we can make the distinction!

Thus, it is theologically incorrect (although liturgically and devotionally, it can be said that "God died") to say that the Word of God died and required resurrection. According to Scriptures, the universe would then cease to exist. What required resurrection was that component of the compound Being of Jesus Christ that DID die, His human flesh. It was His FLESH that was resurrected and glorified - as seen in the Transfiguration.

The "Word" took His place on the right hand of the Father, etc. etc.

The Word never left the "side of the Father". That is a human anthroporphism, since God is EVERYWHERE. God did not send His Wisdom somewhere while He remained in heaven without It. The Word took on human form, entered time and space, etc. HOWEVER, the Word ALSO remained with the Father and the Spirit, KEEPING all things in existence and eternally being begotten.

The "Word" is alive.

And never died. Jesus died in the flesh. His Divinity that took up flesh never died.

Regards