Bible Study Whom do I need to pray to for being saved? Either Jehovah or Jesus?

[JLB]

The Hebrew can easily be translated, "the form of the fourth was like a son of the gods" as all the following versions do:

New International Version
He said, "Look! I see four men walking around in the fire, unbound and unharmed, and the fourth looks like a son of the gods."

New Living Translation
"Look!" Nebuchadnezzar shouted. "I see four men, unbound, walking around in the fire unharmed! And the fourth looks like a god!"

English Standard Version
He answered and said, “But I see four men unbound, walking in the midst of the fire, and they are not hurt; and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods.”

New American Standard Bible
He said, "Look! I see four men loosed and walking about in the midst of the fire without harm, and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods!"

Holman Christian Standard Bible
He exclaimed, "Look! I see four men, not tied, walking around in the fire unharmed; and the fourth looks like a son of the gods."

International Standard Version
"Look!" he told them, "I see four men walking untied and unharmed in the middle of the fire, and the appearance of the fourth resembles a divine being."

NET Bible
He answered, "But I see four men, untied and walking around in the midst of the fire! No harm has come to them! And the appearance of the fourth is like that of a god!"

GOD'S WORD® Translation
The king replied, "But look, I see four men. They're untied, walking in the middle of the fire, and unharmed. The fourth one looks like a son of the gods."

JPS Tanakh 1917
He answered and said: 'Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods.'

New American Standard 1977
He answered and said, “Look! I see four men loosed and walking about in the midst of the fire without harm, and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods!”

King James 2000 Bible
He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they are not hurt; and the form of the fourth is like a son of the gods.

American Standard Version
He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the aspect of the fourth is like a son of the gods.

English Revised Version
He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the aspect of the fourth is like a son of the gods.

World English Bible
He answered, Look, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they are unharmed; and the aspect of the fourth is like a son of the gods.

Young's Literal Translation
He answered and hath said, 'Lo, I am seeing four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the appearance of the fourth is like to a son of the gods.'

So you believe 'elahh here in this verse should refer to pagan gods, and not the Son of God?

God - Strong's H426 - 'elahh
god, God

1. god, heathen deity
   
   
2. God (of Israel)
   

These are the choices for this word -

Heathen deity or God of Israel.

Your interpretation then would be, a pagan god rescued the three Hebrew children from the fiery furnace.

He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God. Daniel 4:25 KJV

My confession is: The Son of God, rescued the three Hebrew children from the fiery furnace.

If you want to teach your children that pagan gods rescued them, then that is sad.


The context is what dictates.

Here this same Aramaic word is used for both by king Nebuchadnezzar , a couple of verses later.

Nebuchadnezzar spoke, saying, “Blessed be the God [H426] of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego, who sent His Angel and delivered His servants who trusted in Him, and they have frustrated the king’s word, and yielded their bodies, that they should not serve nor worship any god [H426] except their own God! [H426] Daniel 3:28

The Son of God appeared as the Angel of the Lord, in the midst of the fire to Moses also. Exodus 3:2-6

The Angel of the Lord is Jesus before He became flesh.

The Angel of the Lord is both Lord and God.

9 The Angel of the Lord said to her, “Return to your mistress, and submit yourself under her hand.” 10 Then the Angel of the Lord said to her, “I will multiply your descendants exceedingly, so that they shall not be counted for multitude.” 11 And the Angel of the Lord said to her:

“Behold, you are with child,
And you shall bear a son.
You shall call his name Ishmael,
Because the Lord has heard your affliction.
12 He shall be a wild man;
His hand shall be against every man,
And every man’s hand against him.
And he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.”

13 Then she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, You-Are-the-God-Who-Sees; for she said, “Have I also here seen Him who sees me?” Genesis 16:9-13

The Angel of the Lord is the pre-incarnate Son of God, who is the Lord God. Exodus 3:2-6


JLB

 

[jocor]

So you believe 'elahh here in this verse should refer to pagan gods, and not the Son of God?

God - Strong's H426 - 'elahh
god, God

1. god, heathen deity
   
   
2. God (of Israel)

These are the choices for this word -

Heathen deity or God of Israel.

Your interpretation then would be, a pagan god rescued the three Hebrew children from the fiery furnace.

He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God. Daniel 4:25 KJV

My confession is: The Son of God, rescued the three Hebrew children from the fiery furnace.

If you want to teach your children that pagan gods rescued them, then that is sad.


The context is what dictates.

Here this same Aramaic word is used for both by king Nebuchadnezzar , a couple of verses later.

Nebuchadnezzar spoke, saying, “Blessed be the God [H426] of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego, who sent His Angel and delivered His servants who trusted in Him, and they have frustrated the king’s word, and yielded their bodies, that they should not serve nor worship any god [H426] except their own God! [H426] Daniel 3:28

The Son of God appeared as the Angel of the Lord, in the midst of the fire to Moses also. Exodus 3:2-6

The Angel of the Lord is Jesus before He became flesh.

The Angel of the Lord is both Lord and God.

9 The Angel of the Lord said to her, “Return to your mistress, and submit yourself under her hand.” 10 Then the Angel of the Lord said to her, “I will multiply your descendants exceedingly, so that they shall not be counted for multitude.” 11 And the Angel of the Lord said to her:

“Behold, you are with child,
And you shall bear a son.
You shall call his name Ishmael,
Because the Lord has heard your affliction.
12 He shall be a wild man;
His hand shall be against every man,
And every man’s hand against him.
And he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.”

13 Then she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, You-Are-the-God-Who-Sees; for she said, “Have I also here seen Him who sees me?” Genesis 16:9-13

The Angel of the Lord is the pre-incarnate Son of God, who is the Lord God. Exodus 3:2-6


JLB

Thanks for proving my point. This pagan king most likely thought it was an angel and he was correct. YHWH sent His angel to save the Hebrews.

In past posts you tried to prove Jesus is YHWH. Now your trying to prove he is only the "angel of YHWH"?

Hebrews 1:4-14 and 2:2-9, especially verse 5, teaches us that Yeshua was NOT an angel.

Heb 2:5 Now it was not to angels that God subjected the world to come, of which we are speaking.
​

The world to come is subject to Yeshua, NOT to angels.

 

[Jim Parker]

Jesus stated the Father is greater then Him. Did you believe HIM?

Yes, I do. I just do not claim to be able to precisely define exactly who/what God is. Neither can any other human being make such a claim.

No, He has always been the Son (firstborn at some point in history before the world began)

The words "in the beginning" along with the aorist tense (past, continuous) of the words "WAS the word" communicate that the Logos, who took on flesh as Jesus of Nazareth, the Messiah, was already there before there was space-time. That idea is confirmed by the statement that all things were made by him (Jn 1:3) What was made was the heavens and the earth. (Gen 1) Since Einstein we call that "space-time." Prior to the creation, there was no "time." So there is no "point in history before the world began" when the Logos came into being. That idea was the heresy of Arius who taught that {"there was a time when the son was not."

The divinity in the Son is the fullness of God the Father. Jesus is not that fullness.

Became flesh? Yes in that a body was prepared for Him. Its clear to me the Son that was (His spirit) was in the tent of the body that God prepared for Him. Jesus was not emptied of the Father.

The scripture does not say "the fullness of God the Father." It uses the word θεότης (theotēs) which is quite properly translated "deity" or "Godhead." What Col 2:9 tells us is the same that message that john 1:14 tells us; that Jesus is God in flesh, not as a parasite or a spirit possessing a human being, but as God having the nature of both creator and creature. The definition of Chalcedon includes:

Following, then, the holy Fathers, we all unanimously teach that our Lord Jesus Christ is to us One and the same Son, the Self-same Perfect in Godhead, the Self-same Perfect in Manhood; truly God and truly Man; the Self-same of a rational soul and body; co-essential with the Father according to the Godhead, the Self-same co-essential with us according to the Manhood; like us in all things, sin apart; before the ages begotten of the Father as to the Godhead, but in the last days, the Self-same, for us and for our salvation (born) of Mary the Virgin Theotokos as to the Manhood; One and the Same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten; acknowledged in Two Natures unconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; the difference of the Natures being in no way removed because of the Union, but rather the properties of each Nature being preserved, and (both) concurring into One Person and One Hypostasis; not as though He were parted or divided into Two Persons, but One and the Self-same Son and Only-begotten God, Word, Lord, Jesus Christ; even as from the beginning the prophets have taught concerning Him, and as the Lord Jesus Christ Himself hath taught us, and as the Symbol of the Fathers hath handed down to us.

That is Biblical and historic Christian doctrine.

The idea of deity "inhabiting" the human body of Jesus as an entity separate from the human being, Jesus of Nazareth, is the heresy called "Ebionitism." It is also known as "Dynamic" or "Adoptionist" monarchianism.

The Holy Spirit or Spirit of the Sovereign Lord or Spirit of truth is the Spirit God claims as His own and Gods very own Spirit is Devine as God is Spirit. Jesus does not make that claim.

Are you saying that Jesus is not divine? That He is not God, the second person of the Trinity?

If that is your position then it is different from Biblical and historic Christianity. It is another opinion, ie: heresy.

And that is what we regularly get when we assume that all we need is our "sola scriptura" and our meager ability to be led of the Holy Spirit to fabricate an alternative system from what the Church has taught for 2000 years. It's what Charles Taze Russell and Joseph Smith did. I fear to tread on that path. You seem to lack my trepidation.

iakov the fool

 

[JLB]

In past posts you tried to prove Jesus is YHWH. Now your trying to prove he is only the "angel of YHWH"?

The Angel of the Lord is God. The Son of God. God the Son who has the same Name as His Father.The name above every Name.

If you have some scripture that proves the Angel of the Lord is not the Lord, or God then post them.

2 And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. 3 Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”4 So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!” And he said, “Here I am.”
5 Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” 6 Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:2-6

Who appeared to Moses, the Angel of the Lord or God the Father.

The Angel of the Lord said His Name was I AM.

And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ Exodus 3:14



Unless you think YHWH doesn't have wings?

He who dwells in the secret place of the Most High
Shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
2 I will say of the Lord, “He ismy refuge and my fortress;
My God, in Him I will trust.”

3 Surely He shall deliver you from the snare of the fowler
And from the perilous pestilence.
4 He shall cover you with His feathers,
And under His wings you shall take refuge;
His truth shall be your shield and buckler. Psalm 91:1-4

JLB

 

[jocor]

The Angel of the Lord is God. The Son of God. God the Son who has the same Name as His Father.The name above every Name.

If you have some scripture that proves the Angel of the Lord is not the Lord, or God then post them.

H4397
מלאך
mal'âk

From an unused root meaning to dispatch as a deputy; a messenger; specifically of God, that is, an angel (also a prophet, priest or teacher): - ambassador, angel, king, messenger.

The very definition of "angel" means to dispatch as a messenger. The angel of YHWH is an angel belonging to YHWH that He sent as a messenger. YHWH did not send Himself, but a messenger.

Act 7:35 This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? the same did God send to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush.
​

"Angel" here is the Greek word "aggelos".

G32
ἄγγελος
aggelos

From ἀγγέλλω aggellō (probably derived from G71; compare G34; to bring tidings); a messenger; especially an “angel”; by implication a pastor: - angel, messenger.

In both Hebrew and Greek, an angel is a messenger sent by God.

2 And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. 3 Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”4 So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!” And he said, “Here I am.”
5 Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” 6 Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:2-6

Who appeared to Moses, the Angel of the Lord or God the Father.

The Angel of the Lord said His Name was I AM.

And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’ Exodus 3:14

An angel appeared to Moses; not God the Father nor the Son.

If we try to understand this from a Western mind set, from our cultural perspective, it is difficult to understand. Not so from Middle Eastern thought. This is what is known as the "law of agency". "The main point of the Jewish law of agency is expressed in the dictum "A person's agent is regarded as the person himself" (Ned.72b; Kidd.41b)." The Encyclopedia of the Jewish Religion, Adama Books, New York, NY, 1986, pg.15. The angel that spoke from the bush was Yahweh's agent or representative. As such, he had full authority to not only speak in His name, but to appropriate His name as in Exodus 3:14-15;

And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Exo 3:15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, YHWH God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.​

He was speaking exactly what Yahweh wanted him to say.

Consider Ex.23:20-23;

"Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him. But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries. For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off."
​

The "angel" (Heb. malak - messenger) would actually speak to Israel, but Yahweh says, "all that I speak." Yahweh would command the angel what to say and he would say it.

Also, consider John 5:37;

"And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape."​

 

[JLB]

H4397
מלאך
mal'âk

From an unused root meaning to dispatch as a deputy; a messenger; specifically of God, that is, an angel (also a prophet, priest or teacher): - ambassador, angel, king, messenger.

The very definition of "angel" means to dispatch as a messenger. The angel of YHWH is an angel belonging to YHWH that He sent as a messenger. YHWH did not send Himself, but a messenger.

Act 7:35 This Moses whom they refused, saying, Who made thee a ruler and a judge? the same did God send to be a ruler and a deliverer by the hand of the angel which appeared to him in the bush.
"Angel" here is the Greek word "aggelos".

G32
ἄγγελος
aggelos

From ἀγγέλλω aggellō (probably derived from G71; compare G34; to bring tidings); a messenger; especially an “angel”; by implication a pastor: - angel, messenger.

In both Hebrew and Greek, an angel is a messenger sent by God.

Hebrews says it this way -

For to which of the angels did He ever say:

“You are My Son,today I have begotten You”? Hebrews 1:5

and again

But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
Hebrews 1:8

Does a messenger bring a Word?

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1

And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush...And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:2,6

Did Moses look upon the Angel of the Lord or God the Father?


What is an angel of the Lord? Answer: a spirit of the Lord

What is the Angel of the Lord? Answer: The Spirit of the Lord.

Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 2 Corinthians 3:17

The Angel of the Lord was The Son of God, before He became flesh.




JLB

 

[JLB]

An angel appeared to Moses; not God the Father nor the Son.

You deny the truth that the scripture plainly state.

And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:6

and again

21 When the Angel of the Lord appeared no more to Manoah and his wife, then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the Lord.
22 And Manoah said to his wife, “We shall surely die, because we have seen God!”
Judges 13:21-22

and again

11 And the Angel of the Lord said to her:

“Behold, you are with child, and you shall bear a son.
You shall call his name Ishmael, because the Lord has heard your affliction.
12 He shall be a wild man; his hand shall be against every man,
And every man’s hand against him. and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.”
13 Then she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, You-Are-the-God-Who-Sees; for she said, “Have I also here seen Him who sees me?” Genesis 16:11-13


“By the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established.”


JLB

 

[Randy]

Bold and Red for emphasis.

I agree with some of what you say, However The Spirit of Christ, is the Spirit of the Lord God.

Do you see a difference in:

The Spirit of God
The Holy Spirit
The Spirit of the Lord [Spirit of Christ]

Is One of these not Divine ?

But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. Romans 8:9

The Old Testament prophets were speaking by the Spirit of the Lord. [Spirit of Christ]

Example:

“And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.
Zechariah 12:10

For I am the Lord your God, The Holy One of Israel, your Savior; Isaiah 43:3

• This was the Lord God [Spirit of Christ] speaking through these two different prophets.

Peter says it this way -

10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, 11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow.

• These scriptures also indicate the Omnipresence of the spirit of Christ, being in all the Church or all the Old Testament Prophets at the same time, as it is written... I will never leave you nor forsake you.

The Spirit of Christ, The Holy Spirit and the Spirit of God are all Divine and are all God.

God the Father beget God the Son, before the foundation of the world.

Jesus appeared to those in the Old Testament, before He became flesh as The Angel of the Lord, The Lord, God.


Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. 2 And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. 3 Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”4 So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
5 Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” 6 Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God...13 Then Moses said to God, “Indeed, when I come to the children of Israel and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they say to me, ‘What is His name?’ what shall I say to them?”

14 And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM.” And He said, “Thus you shall say to the children of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”
Exodus 3:1-6, 13-14


JLB

The Fathers promise=>In the last days I will pour out MY SPIRIT
Jesus=>The Spirit He sent was received from the Father. Read acts 2: In a believer the same Holy Spirit (as there is only One) represents the mind and will of Jesus. In that context the Spirit of Christ. In Jesus that same Spirit represents the mind and will of God (Father). And with the Son the fullness was given which includes all authority (hence the Spirit acts also according to Jesus's will) and all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. All the fullness of God. And in that Jesus is all that the Father is but still Gods Firstborn. So Jesus in us and the Father in Jesus. One God in all.

Father =>I will place MY SPIRIT upon Him (Jesus) and He shall proclaim justice to the nations... As with light comes hope but also accountability.
Jesus=> The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is upon me....

Randy

 

[Randy]

You're sounding like a JW. It's difficult to make the distinction.

Do you believe Jesus was fully God and fully man?

Are you just saying He didn't have full power?
As a man, he cried over Jerusalem.
As God He raised Lazarus.

When we try to understand something that is not understandable, I feel we could stray and get into murky territory.
Either Jesus was God or He wasn't. Would you agree to this? Make it simple...

Wondering

I believe, as Paul wrote in clear language, that Jesus is Gods Firstborn. And God was pleased to have HIS fullness dwell in Jesus.

Is Jesus God?
He never dies.
Yes, He is ALL that the Father is.
No, He has always been the Son. (firstborn -at some point in history before the world began)

Its clear to me the Son that was, (His spirit), was in the tent of the body God prepared for Him. Jesus was not emptied of the Father. The word that Jesus spoke belonged to the Father. That is it was the Father in Him doing His word. Hence those that reject those words reject the very words of God.

Jesus calls the Father the one true God. If your premise is that Jesus always was and always was God how then do you hold to one God for Jesus stated on the cross , "Father into your hands I commit my spirit"?


Randy

 

[GodsGrace]

I believe, as Paul wrote in clear language, that Jesus is Gods Firstborn. And God was pleased to have HIS fullness dwell in Jesus.

Is Jesus God?
He never dies.
Yes, He is ALL that the Father is.
No, He has always been the Son. (firstborn -at some point in history before the world began)

Its clear to me the Son that was, (His spirit), was in the tent of the body God prepared for Him. Jesus was not emptied of the Father. The word that Jesus spoke belonged to the Father. That is it was the Father in Him doing His word. Hence those that reject those words reject the very words of God.

Jesus calls the Father the one true God. If your premise is that Jesus always was and always was God how then do you hold to one God for Jesus stated on the cross , "Father into your hands I commit my spirit"?


Randy

Hi Randy,

I'm not one to post back and forth since we all have our beliefs and who am I to convince anyone?
I do like to understand though.

Are you distinguishing between The Son, the second person of the Trinity
and Jesus? - who indeed was the first begotten of the Father.

Can it be as simple as this??

Or are you saying that The Father existed first, and THEN He created the Son, second person of the Trinity.

It's this sentence of yours that's confusing me:
No, He has always been the Son. (firstborn -at some point in history before the world began)

You say He has ALWAYS been the Son and then in parenthesis you say he was the FIRSTBORN at some point in history. This sounds like a conflicting statement.

Jesus called God the Father while on earth because He was also a man and was referring to God as we all would. Jesus Himself stated that His powers here were limited because it was not for Him to know all things.

in John 8.58 does He not state "Before Abraham was, I AM". The same I AM as announced to Moses in Exodus 3:14.

IOW, are you saying that you can be christian and not be trinitarian? I'm sorry for my ignorance.

Thanks for your reply
Wondering

 

[Tracy J. Harper]

Hi Tracy

Got here late. But I have two questions:

1. Are we Christians living under the Old Covenant (Mosaic) or under the New Covenant?
Or, to put it another way: Are we living under The Law or are we living under Grace?

2. Who went to the cross to save you?

Also, you say the Father is greater than the Son. The Father and The Son are One. The Son and the Holy Spirit are One. The Father and the Holy Spirit are One. God is ONE. Each person of the Trinity has His own attributes, however, each one is equally God. So it's not correct to say that the Father is more than The Son.
See Colossians 1:19 "for it was the father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him".

All of God's nature is in each person of the Trinity. Not a concept we can really grasp. Most Christians pray to God and/or Jesus - which is the same thing.

It's also right to pray to the Holy Spirit. He kind of gets forgotten.

Wondering

I have enjoyed God's rich grace and mercy because of Lord Jesus' redemption work. And I also have looked God's disposition of love and mercy. It was an established fact. But after sister Lili asked me this question, I was interested in God's name. I have another question. Did God have name in the beginning?

 

[JLB]

The Fathers promise=>In the last days I will pour out MY SPIRIT
Jesus=>The Spirit He sent was received from the Father. Read acts 2: In a believer the same Holy Spirit (as there is only One) represents the mind and will of Jesus. In that context the Spirit of Christ. In Jesus that same Spirit represents the mind and will of God (Father). And with the Son the fullness was given which includes all authority (hence the Spirit acts also according to Jesus's will) and all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. All the fullness of God. And in that Jesus is all that the Father is but still Gods Firstborn. So Jesus in us and the Father in Jesus. One God in all.

Father =>I will place MY SPIRIT upon Him (Jesus) and He shall proclaim justice to the nations... As with light comes hope but also accountability.
Jesus=> The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is upon me....

Randy

Brother, you are going to have to use scripture for all these statements you made.

And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. Zechariah 12:10

This scriptures shows us the Spirit of Christ is the one speaking through Zechariah.
1 Peter 1:11

Christ Jesus is the One pouring out His Spirit of Grace upon Jerusalem.

The Spirit of Christ spoke these words in Zechariah 12:1 - Thus says the Lord, who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him:

The inhabitants of Israel will see Him coming from Heaven and mourn -

10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. 11 In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning at Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo.12 And the land shall mourn, every family by itself: the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself, and their wives by themselves; 13 the family of the house of Levi by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of Shimei by itself, and their wives by themselves; 14 all the families that remain, every family by itself, and their wives by themselves. Zechariah 12:10-14

This is what Jesus taught His disciples on the Mount of Olives, from Zechariah.

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:30


JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

I have enjoyed God's rich grace and mercy because of Lord Jesus' redemption work. And I also have looked God's disposition of love and mercy. It was an established fact. But after sister Lili asked me this question, I was interested in God's name. I have another question. Did God have name in the beginning?

Hello Tracy,

The only "name" God had in the beginning is I AM. God is who He is. It's not really a name. In the beginning He was just God, the great Almighty who created everything visible and invisible. He didn't really have a name since there was no one to call on Him. When God told Moses to say I AM sent me, God did not mean this to be a name, but He was addressing His nature.

After He revealed Himself to Abraham who became the Father of the Hebrew people and of us all, man began to give God names. As man understood the different attributes of God, man so named Him. You must have done a study for God's names. Each one means something different.

Elohim: The Strong One
El Shaddai: God Almighty
Yaweh: The self.existing God
Adonai: The Master

Jehovah is a mistranslation, or English version of Yaweh Or YHWH, since the Israelites respected God so much they would not pronounce His name, so it was written in a way that could not be pronounced.

Someone out there might have more information on this. Or you could do your own study online. It's very interesting. So although God had different names in the O.T., He referred to Himself as the great I AM to Moses.

I feel that the O.T. names are okay to use, but they denote a different feeling from the name our Lord gave us to use: Father. Never in the O.T. is the word Father used to address God. Jesus truly makes us understand that we are His children, and makes God known to us and brings Him closer to us.

So, since we're living in the New Covenant times, I like to use the word God, or Father, or Lord, or Jesus. Jesus Himself taught us to pray to Our Father, in Mathew. For instance, Jehovah kind of reminds me of the Jehovah witnesses who do not accept Jesus as God as we do and so are not living in the New Covenant as we are.

Wondering

 

[jocor]

You deny the truth that the scripture plainly state.

I deny your interpretation of the truth that you plainly state.

 

[jocor]

IOW, are you saying that you can be christian and not be trinitarian? I'm sorry for my ignorance.

I would just like to say that one can be a member of the Body of Messiah and NOT be a trinitarian. No Scripture says otherwise.

 

[jocor]

(Post removed. You shall not add your own words to any quoted scripture. This is illegal. Obadiah.)

 

[JLB]

I deny your interpretation of the truth that you plainly state.

And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush.
And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:2,6

and again

21 When the Angel of the Lord appeared no more to Manoah and his wife, then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the Lord.
22 And Manoah said to his wife, “We shall surely die, because we have seen God!”
Judges 13:21-22

and again

11 And the Angel of the Lord said to her:
“Behold, you are with child, and you shall bear a son.
You shall call his name Ishmael, because the Lord has heard your affliction.
12 He shall be a wild man; his hand shall be against every man,
And every man’s hand against him. and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.”
13 Then she called the name of the Lord who spoke to her, You-Are-the-God-Who-Sees; for she said, “Have I also here seen Himwho sees me?” Genesis 16:11-13


“By the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established.” 2 Corinthians 13:1


Please point to my interpretation in this post.


JLB

 

[JLB]

I deny your interpretation of the truth that you plainly state.

I would just like to say that one can be a member of the Body of Messiah and NOT be a trinitarian. No Scripture says otherwise.

You use no scripture.

All Scriptureis given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
2 Timothy 3:16

 

[JLB]

(Post removed. Response to a deleted post. Obadiah)

 

[JLB]

An angel appeared to Moses; not God the Father nor the Son.

It doesn't say "an" angel, The scripture says the Angel of the Lord appeared to Moses, and it also says:

And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. Exodus 3:2
Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Exodus 3:6

The Angel of the Lord = the Spirit of the Lord


JLB