why "answersingenesis" is scary

[Quath]

First of all, Christ didn't come to "experience" humanity...this is the wrong idea entirely. Christ came to be an atonement for sin for us.

If this is true, then I would say there are more considerations. Otherwise, God could have just had Jesus killed as a baby. Or God could have created Jesus the same day that Adam sinned and killed him. Or God could have just snapped his fingers and forgave everyone with an elaborate scheme.

I would not worship the concept of hell upon my worst enemy. Why is it that I have more compassion for humanity than God does?

 

[Gendou Ikari]

I would not worship the concept of hell upon my worst enemy. Why is it that I have more compassion for humanity than God does?

Exactly what I have been saying on this forum for a long time. Why is it that the Philosophers, Atheists, Agnostics, Taoists, Buddhists, etc., have more compassion than an All-Powerful God. Pathetic, sinful men, like you and I display more compassion and Love towards Mankind than the God of Christendom. Odd isn't it. :-D

 

[lovely]

Quath,

Why do you pull out another circular argument when I show you, in Scripture, how you have misrepresented God, by His own Word? You give me one right after another sometimes, Quath. Have you ever sincerely tried to see the truth of what I am speaking? It's your very statements that prove you do not have more compassion on humanity, Quath, because you misrepresent God's Words to satisfy your own righteousness, and to keep others from seeing the Truth. If you are correct in what you say about God, and are telling yourself, and others, truth, then you would never have to twist it at all. Why don't you approach the Word, and God, in an honest manner and see where it leads you?

Again, His purpose was not to "experience" human-ness, but he loved us enough to provide an atonement for sin. That is the Truth. The reason He came, and the reason He said He came. Why is Christ growing up evidence to the contrary, or why must we consider other plans that may have been feasible to cast God in a cavalier light? He had a purpose, He had a plan, He fulfilled both, and continues to...why is your considerations of another plan, or satan's, offering us something more? It doesn't, It is just an attempt to discredit God and make Him appear deceitful in His purposes...That's the same old story with him, and you, I afraid.

You do not know your enemy, Quath. In fact, you don't even think he exists. Yet, good and evil are all around you as evidence. He has you right where he wants you. Christ died for us, and He is offering to save us from the very one who has you deceived...the master liar, and spin doctor. You have bought in to it, and you sell it.

You may be smart in many ways, but your are blind to the one who made you that way, and who made all the intelligence that exists...it is His. The thing is, you lack the Fear of the Lord which is the beginning of wisdom, and therefore can not grasp the simple Truth when it is right before you, and the evidence all around you. I have not lied to you, or twisted your words to counter any arguments we have had, but you do that with God every time....can you see the lie in that? Why the need for it, if you are espousing truth, and compassion, on behalf of humankind?

The concept of Hell is not what I worship, and you know that too...semantics. I worship God, the One who is TRUE, and there is no lie in Him. He is the One who offers a way of salvation from Hell for those ask Him. The Father sent His own Son in your place, if you receive it. I wonder, would you give up so much for a creature that treats you as you do Him? I hope that you have not been given over to your sin forever because of your constant resistance to Him, and your fear of looking less intelligent to your peers because you believe His Words. You have overlooked His love. You are right, I don't wish Hell on my worst enemy, and neither does God.

 

[Gendou Ikari]

The concept of Hell is not what I worship, and you know that too...semantics. I worship God, the One who is TRUE, and there is no lie in Him. He is the One who offers a way of salvation from Hell for those ask Him. The Father sent His own Son in your place, if you receive it. I wonder, would you give up so much for a creature that treats you as you do Him? I hope that you have not been given over to your sin forever because of your constant resistance to Him, and your fear of looking less intelligent to your peers because you believe His Words. You have overlooked His love. You are right, I don't wish Hell on my worst enemy, and neither does God.

I believe he Quath meant "wish" not "worship."

God may not wish Hell on His creature, but He is making the choice to send them there. He can not torture them and work on their repentance; He is God after all.

I do have one question though. Why is it God had to have Jesus die to forgive us. Why couldn't He just forgive us?

 

[Solo]

I believe he Quath meant "wish" not "worship."

God may not wish Hell on His creature, but He is making the choice to send them there. He can not torture them and work on their repentance; He is God after all.

I do have one question though. Why is it God had to have Jesus die to forgive us. Why couldn't He just forgive us?

God is a just God, and when he says that when Adam and Eve would die if they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, then they would in fact die. They did, afterwhich they birthed a whole species of dying, condemned believers. Instead of wiping them out and starting over, God had purpose in his creation, and that plan is going on just as planned until the day that He ends it.

Since God is a just God and he warned Adam and Eve that they would die if they ate of that tree, he already foreknew that they would fall, and that he would send them salvation through his only begotten Son. Jesus would die for their sins instead. Those that understand and believe come to Jesus for salvation, those that do not understand and reject Jesus will pay the price of death all by themselves.

 

[Quath]

Have you ever sincerely tried to see the truth of what I am speaking?

I use to believe all that stuff. However, when I tried to eason it all out, it all came apart for me. I tried different perspectives to see if I could make it all work and in the end I lost all my religious beliefs.

It's your very statements that prove you do not have more compassion on humanity, Quath, because you misrepresent God's Words to satisfy your own righteousness, and to keep others from seeing the Truth.

Just imagine for a second that I am right and there is no God. I would be helping people to recognize mythology for what it is. They would have a better view of reality and the way the universe works. That would be a benefit to people. It is only harm if you are correct and God is real.

Why don't you approach the Word, and God, in an honest manner and see where it leads you?

Lets just look at one line from the Bible from Hosea 9 that God was suppose to have said: All their wickedness began at Gilgal; there I began to hate them. I will drive them from my land because of their evil actions. I will love them no more because all their leaders are rebels. The people of Israel are stricken. Their roots are dried up; they will bear no more fruit. And if they give birth, I will slaughter their beloved children.

I can not logically reconcile a loving God with someone who would say this. It seem that you are able. I think that is our biggest difference. You can read words of hate and see love, where as I can not.

Why is Christ growing up evidence to the contrary, or why must we consider other plans that may have been feasible to cast God in a cavalier light?

It was evidence that forgiveness of sin was not the only purpose of Jesus because God could have impregnated Eve, had Jesus and killed him in a year after the original sin. So if there is more to this theology, we should question it.

He had a purpose, He had a plan, He fulfilled both, and continues to...why is your considerations of another plan, or satan's, offering us something more? It doesn't, It is just an attempt to discredit God and make Him appear deceitful in His purposes...That's the same old story with him, and you, I afraid.

Well, the overalll story makes no sense. God could forgive without sacrifice. (Would you agree?) It makes no sense theologically from 2 Kings 14:1-6 where it says "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, nor the children be put to death for the fathers; but every man shall be put to death for his own sin." This would mean that Jesus could not take the sins away without breaking God's earlier statement.

Christ died for us, and He is offering to save us from the very one who has you deceived...the master liar, and spin doctor. You have bought in to it, and you sell it.

What you are in essense saying is that Jesus died so I would not be tortured by God (who created hell). This makes God sound evil to construct such a scheme and it makes Christians sound like people whp experience Stockholm Syndrone while dealing with it. Another way to phrase all of this is "Worship God or you will be tortured for all of eternity." That is the essense of the message, and if it were stated that way, Christians would see the badness of it. Yet stated as a positive and people don't realize how bad it all sounds.

I have not lied to you, or twisted your words to counter any arguments we have had, but you do that with God every time....can you see the lie in that? Why the need for it, if you are espousing truth, and compassion, on behalf of humankind?

I do not try to twist anything in the Bible, but I try to show them as one who is not convinced they are anything more than a collection of myths.

The concept of Hell is not what I worship, and you know that too...semantics.

Yeah, that was a bad type (some may say Freudian slip).

I wonder, would you give up so much for a creature that treats you as you do Him?

What did God give up? Did God lose Jesus? God sacrificed nothing because he lost nothing in this story.

I hope that you have not been given over to your sin forever because of your constant resistance to Him, and your fear of looking less intelligent to your peers because you believe His Words.

I have no fear of my peers. One of the women I work with is very smart and she is Christian. I reject God out of reasons other than peer pressure.

You are right, I don't wish Hell on my worst enemy, and neither does God.

I don't get this. If God did create hell and if he sends people there, then not only did he wish it, it made it a reality. So I am not sure if you are saying that hell does not exist or if God does not send people there or something else.

 

[Atonement]

Quath, please check your PM..

-MOD

 

[Nocturnal_Principal_X]

I do have one question though. Why is it God had to have Jesus die to forgive us. Why couldn't He just forgive us?

Some people like to go on an on about how God is a God of love but He is also a God of justice. Sin, or disobedience to God, from the beginning has always had a price. God cannot and will not tolerate that which is unholy and sinful. That being said, sin must be paid for somehow. Thankfully God provided Jesus Christ to pay that price. Christ received justice for our sins and paid in full the penalty.

Bottom line is the penalty for sin must be paid one way or the other, and since we (humans) can never do enough to pay for that penalty we have to accept the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Considering what Christ went through and what He did I do not see how requiring us to have faith in Him is asking to much. All God requires for us to be saved, for the penalty to be paid in full, is faith.

 

[Quath]

A god of justice means that everyone is judged for their own crime. Punishing Jesus for the crime of another is the opposite of justice and it goes completely against what God said in 2 Kings 14:1-6.

If God is to be just he must follow a law and punish each for their crime. If he enforces the law arbitrarily or with the punishment of innocents, then he is showing he is not just.

 

[Gendou Ikari]

A god of justice means that everyone is judged for their own crime. Punishing Jesus for the crime of another is the opposite of justice and it goes completely against what God said in 2 Kings 14:1-6.

If God is to be just he must follow a law and punish each for their crime. If he enforces the law arbitrarily or with the punishment of innocents, then he is showing he is not just.

Well, Jesus and the Father are the same God, to most Christians, so really God is punishing Himself.

But think about it. Is it really justice to punish someone infinitely for a finite crime?

 

[Atonement]

Well, Jesus and the Father are the same God, to most Christians, so really God is punishing Himself.

But think about it. Is it really justice to punish someone infinitely for a finite crime?

Yep

 

[Solo]

Well, Jesus and the Father are the same God, to most Christians, so really God is punishing Himself.

But think about it. Is it really justice to punish someone infinitely for a finite crime?

Sin is not a finite crime, it is an infinite act against an infinite God, in his creation that was infinitely good until the infinite crime of sin cursed the entire creation. The death of God's only begotten Son is not a finite act, but is now infinite; God will have paid the price forever, infinitely with the death of His Son, Jesus Christ. Nothing will ever be the same as the beginning since the crime of sin, forever.

You sin because you are a sinner. You are condemned as a sinner, and will pay the penalty for sin yourself, if you reject the payment of Jesus Christ, a free gift from God.

 

[Quath]

Sin is not a finite crime, it is an infinite act against an infinite God, in his creation that was infinitely good until the infinite crime of sin cursed the entire creation. The death of God's only begotten Son is not a finite act, but is now infinite; God will have paid the price forever, infinitely with the death of His Son, Jesus Christ. Nothing will ever be the same as the beginning since the crime of sin, forever.

You are claiming things that are infinite that are not. I have a limited lifespan. I can do only a limited number of things in that lifespan. I can break a limited amount of laws. Yet you say that one act of sin such as coveting my neighbors house is worth me spending all of eternity being tortured? My finite act of desire is worth more than a trillion years of despair and horror? Talk about extreme measures.

And a loving God would feel compassion and keep people from needless torture. So God could be kinder and remove people from existance rather than kill them.

You sin because you are a sinner. You are condemned as a sinner, and will pay the penalty for sin yourself, if you reject the payment of Jesus Christ, a free gift from God.

So I am punished because I was created as a sinner. You make God sound like a kid who is mad at his toys and smashes them all. If God loves any human, he would never torture them or set up a place for torture and outsorce it to Satan.

It is also not a free gift. To be free, I have to do nothing for it. Yet most Christians say you have to believe in Jesus and/or worship him. That is not free.

 

[Solo]

So I am punished because I was created as a sinner. You make God sound like a kid who is mad at his toys and smashes them all. If God loves any human, he would never torture them or set up a place for torture and outsorce it to Satan.

It is also not a free gift. To be free, I have to do nothing for it. Yet most Christians say you have to believe in Jesus and/or worship him. That is not free.

You will find out. Good luck.

 

[Gendou Ikari]

You will find out. Good luck.

I guess you are out of thoughtful arguments.

Sin is not a finite crime, it is an infinite act against an infinite God, in his creation that was infinitely good until the infinite crime of sin cursed the entire creation.

Wait, God's creation was perfect? How was it then that Adam sinned. If he was made perfect, he shouldn't have sinned. You consider God to be perfect and He cannot sin. If Adam was really perfect, he would not have been able to sin.

The death of God's only begotten Son is not a finite act, but is now infinite; God will have paid the price forever, infinitely with the death of His Son, Jesus Christ. Nothing will ever be the same as the beginning since the crime of sin, forever.

You are acting like God the Father lost Jesus forever. Isn't He seated at the right hand of the Father? In order for Jesus' death to be infinite, He would have to not exist for an infinitely long amount of time, or spend eternity in hell, taking our place. Logically if the first sin was infinitely damaging, Jesus' infinite sacrifice would be infinitely healing.

You sin because you are a sinner. You are condemned as a sinner, and will pay the penalty for sin yourself, if you reject the payment of Jesus Christ, a free gift from God

It is not a Free Gift if it has conditions.

 

[Solo]

You will find out. Good luck.

I guess you are out of thoughtful arguments.

No, I was presented with a thoughtless argument. The same as you present.

Sin is not a finite crime, it is an infinite act against an infinite God, in his creation that was infinitely good until the infinite crime of sin cursed the entire creation.

Wait, God's creation was perfect? How was it then that Adam sinned. If he was made perfect, he shouldn't have sinned. You consider God to be perfect and He cannot sin. If Adam was really perfect, he would not have been able to sin.

You do not comprehend what you read to well. I said that God created and infinitely good creation. In that, he created mankind with a freewill to choose to obey or not to obey. He created satan with the freewill to choose to obey or not to obey.
Both rejected the creator and disobeyed because of ignorance, just like today.

The death of God's only begotten Son is not a finite act, but is now infinite; God will have paid the price forever, infinitely with the death of His Son, Jesus Christ. Nothing will ever be the same as the beginning since the crime of sin, forever.

You are acting like God the Father lost Jesus forever. Isn't He seated at the right hand of the Father? In order for Jesus' death to be infinite, He would have to not exist for an infinitely long amount of time, or spend eternity in hell, taking our place. Logically if the first sin was infinitely damaging, Jesus' infinite sacrifice would be infinitely healing.

Prior to sin entering into the creation, the Word was God in the Kingdom of God, and now since sin, the makeup of God is different than before the infinite sin. God would not have made the merciful leap of putting on sinful flesh in order to be the propitiation of sin, if sin had not entered the creation. Sin infinitely changed God's creation. Take some time and think about it.

You sin because you are a sinner. You are condemned as a sinner, and will pay the penalty for sin yourself, if you reject the payment of Jesus Christ, a free gift from God.

It is not a Free Gift if it has conditions.

You can take the gift home or you can leave the gift there. Humbly receive the free gift, or pridefully reject it. That is the condition.

 

[Gendou Ikari]

You do not comprehend what you read to well. I said that God created and infinitely good creation. In that, he created mankind with a freewill to choose to obey or not to obey. He created satan with the freewill to choose to obey or not to obey.
Both rejected the creator and disobeyed because of ignorance, just like today.

You, also, do not get the point I made. Something which is infinitely good, must be divine i.e. God. If God has free-will and He does not sin, why not just make us like that, since it would be possible to have free-will and not sin? Having Free-Will and not sinning would be more perfect than the way Adam was created and therefore he was not infinitely perfect. Does this also mean, once someone gets to Heaven, he can sin again?

Prior to sin entering into the creation, the Word was God in the Kingdom of God, and now since sin, the makeup of God is different than before the infinite sin. God would not have made the merciful leap of putting on sinful flesh in order to be the propitiation of sin, if sin had not entered the creation. Sin infinitely changed God's creation. Take some time and think about it.

Oh, yeah, I forgot that Jesus' sacrifice was not as effective as the Original Sin. The First Sin, caused everyone to become sinners and the Sacrifice at Calvalry causes only a small percentage to be saved. Guess the First Sin was more infinite than the Sacrifice. The Sacrifice is conditional, the First Sin was unconditional.

 

[Solo]

You do not comprehend what you read to well. I said that God created and infinitely good creation. In that, he created mankind with a freewill to choose to obey or not to obey. He created satan with the freewill to choose to obey or not to obey.
Both rejected the creator and disobeyed because of ignorance, just like today.

You, also, do not get the point I made. Something which is infinitely good, must be divine i.e. God. If God has free-will and He does not sin, why not just make us like that, since it would be possible to have free-will and not sin? Having Free-Will and not sinning would be more perfect than the way Adam was created and therefore he was not infinitely perfect. Does this also mean, once someone gets to Heaven, he can sin again?

I understand precisely the point you are making. God created all angels with freewill, and 1/3 of them followed Lucifer in their rebellion towards God; 2/3 of them continued to obey God without rebelling; therefore their freewill choice was made to their benefit. Do not forget that God is the creator, and all of his creatures have a choice to believe God's truth or not. To believe that God is truth is to keep oneself from screwing up.

Prior to sin entering into the creation, the Word was God in the Kingdom of God, and now since sin, the makeup of God is different than before the infinite sin. God would not have made the merciful leap of putting on sinful flesh in order to be the propitiation of sin, if sin had not entered the creation. Sin infinitely changed God's creation. Take some time and think about it.

Oh, yeah, I forgot that Jesus' sacrifice was not as effective as the Original Sin. The First Sin, caused everyone to become sinners and the Sacrifice at Calvalry causes only a small percentage to be saved. Guess the First Sin was more infinite than the Sacrifice. The Sacrifice is conditional, the First Sin was unconditional.

You have a choice to be eternally, infinitely with the creator God, or you have the choice to be eternally, infinitely separated from the creator God. That freewill has existed among the created angels, and that same freewill choice has existed among the creature called man. Your choice is as infinite as the sin, whether your choice is eternal life or everlasting punishment. Ignorance is not an excuse for rebellion against the creator God.

 

[Quath]

I understand precisely the point you are making. God created all angels with freewill, and 1/3 of them followed Lucifer in their rebellion towards God; 2/3 of them continued to obey God without rebelling; therefore their freewill choice was made to their benefit.

You bring up a couple of interesting things. The first is free will. Even if you believe in it, you also have to realize that we have desires that influence how we act. So God could have made us feel estacy if we obeyed him and pain if we disobeyed. That way we would have "free will"; will know what really is sinful; and also desire to obey him.

The other problem is that the angels that really know God had enough support to try to overthrow him. Enough to convince 1/3 to try to take on the most powerful being in all of existance to remove him from power. If being in the presence of God makes a lot of angels want to remove him from power, what does that say? If God were like Zeus or Odin, I could see this story. However, if God is infinitely good and all powerful, then I see no reason to rebel. Firest because you could not get a better ruler. And second because you can not fight infinite power with finite power. So this story seems to show that God being all powerful and all good has holes in it.

 

[Justice]

Just imagine for a second that I am right and there is no God. I would be helping people to recognize mythology for what it is. They would have a better view of reality and the way the universe works. That would be a benefit to people. It is only harm if you are correct and God is real.

To worship gravity or the earth/universe that mankind can't create and that's better???

You see what's in front of you without any definite explantion and you believe that makes you right and us wrong. The mythology is thinking that a sunset just happens.

You think Jesus had an advantage over the rest of us.

Advantage is when the "example" has the perfect answer. If the example does not have the answer it's worthless.

Adam had authority but satan slithered in and took it away from him. No one else other than Jesus Christ could have taken it back. So do we need you to straighten us out??? No!!! Just like Adam mankind will always make a mess of things. No matter who you are, the perfect "example" thus answer can NOT be found in men.

Justice