why "answersingenesis" is scary

[Quath]

To worship gravity or the earth/universe that mankind can't create and that's better???

I see no value in worshiping anything.

You see what's in front of you without any definite explantion and you believe that makes you right and us wrong. The mythology is thinking that a sunset just happens.

If you look at myths, you see why people created them. People wonder why a storm killed a lot of people. They believed back then that storms must have a consciousness. They believed that storms had intent. These ge translated into "gods."

So when the israelites won a battle, it was because of God. When they lost it must also be because of God. They would then try to make sense of it all because they wanted a god on their side just like their enemy claimed.

Add in talking donkeys, people traveling inside whales, talking snakes, and all sorts of magic and it looks like all other mythologies from around the world. It is very hard to see this from within your belief system. It would be like asking a Muslim to realize that the Quran sounds made up. They can not objectively look at it and at other made up books and see a similarity, event though most people here could do so easily.

Adam had authority but satan slithered in and took it away from him. No one else other than Jesus Christ could have taken it back.

God could have snapped his fingers and made it so. There was no need to break the concept of justice. There was no need to hurt innocents. That is why the story makes no sense to me.

So do we need you to straighten us out??? No!!! Just like Adam mankind will always make a mess of things. No matter who you are, the perfect "example" thus answer can NOT be found in men.

The Heaven's Gate cult and the followers of David Koresh were not looking to be straightened out either. However, I think all of here would have liked it better if they looked at their religion a little more skeptically.

 

[Veritas]

Quath wrote:
It would be like asking a Muslim to realize that the Quran sounds made up. They can not objectively look at it and at other made up books and see a similarity, event though most people here could do so easily.

And who looks at it objectively? Someone who doesn't believe in it? Are not their views subjective to their belief in other things or subjective to their disbelief?

 

[Quath]

And who looks at it objectively? Someone who doesn't believe in it? Are not their views subjective to their belief in other things or subjective to their disbelief?

I agree. Most people here would look at it and be biased against believing it. However, we would justify it by pointing out all the flaws. We may point out how silly Allah looks. Or we may note the contradictions with what is said and the actions of Muhammad and Allah. Or we may talk about how flawed the theology is.

However, where we differ is that I see the exact same thing in the Bible whereas Christian believers typically do not.

 

[Solo]

I understand precisely the point you are making. God created all angels with freewill, and 1/3 of them followed Lucifer in their rebellion towards God; 2/3 of them continued to obey God without rebelling; therefore their freewill choice was made to their benefit.

You bring up a couple of interesting things. The first is free will. Even if you believe in it, you also have to realize that we have desires that influence how we act. So God could have made us feel estacy if we obeyed him and pain if we disobeyed. That way we would have "free will"; will know what really is sinful; and also desire to obey him.

We do not know the state in which man was created since we are descendents of Adam and Eve in the fallen state. We only know that we were created in God's image, and some of that remains. It is not apparent what we lost of the spiritual life since Adam and Eve were the only ones of mankind that had it prior to the fall.

When the Holy Spirit "quickens" us or makes us able to see the spiritual things of God, we can then believe or reject the truths revealed to us. This act of belief take humility, while rejection takes pride.

Prior to the born again, born from above experience, we cannot understand the spiritual things because we are only natural man, and the spiritual things of God are foolishness to us.

You have stated that you have assessed your past beliefs, and that you have wised up in order to understand that there is no God. What that says is that you were one who had heard the truth, but rejected it; therefore you continue to be a natural man.

The other problem is that the angels that really know God had enough support to try to overthrow him. Enough to convince 1/3 to try to take on the most powerful being in all of existance to remove him from power. If being in the presence of God makes a lot of angels want to remove him from power, what does that say? If God were like Zeus or Odin, I could see this story. However, if God is infinitely good and all powerful, then I see no reason to rebel. Firest because you could not get a better ruler. And second because you can not fight infinite power with finite power. So this story seems to show that God being all powerful and all good has holes in it.

There were three arch angels in heaven; Michael, Gabriel, and Lucifer. I suspect that each had equal division of angels in their order. When Lucifer determined that he, a created spiritual being, wanted to be as God, or above God, he fell and was kicked out of his position, immediately. The angels have absolutely no power over their creator, otherwise they would have not been overcome by Jesus Christ. It is very interesting to me that God created a creature out of the dirt of the earth that would become joint heirs with Jesus Christ, a place that Lucifer coveted but will never attain.

 

[Veritas]

Quath wrote:
I agree. Most people here would look at it and be biased against believing it. However, we would justify it by pointing out all the flaws. We may point out how silly Allah looks. Or we may note the contradictions with what is said and the actions of Muhammad and Allah. Or we may talk about how flawed the theology is.

However, where we differ is that I see the exact same thing in the Bible whereas Christian believers typically do not.

Fair enough.

And I would take it that verses like 2 Kings 14:1-6 (Deut. 24:16) and Hosea 9:15 or Luke 14:26 are some of the contradictions. Among many I assume. Would you accept any explaination? Or is it just clear cut? I'm just curious, because I could offer explainations.

Another thing I am curious about. And this question goes for Gendou Ikari and peace4all too. Just imagine for the moment (just theoretically speaking) that the God we speak of does exist. Imagine that when you die, somehow, you go to heaven and are able to meet this God. Would you be comfortable around a God like that? I guess I'm curious if you would just forget about the "contradictions", "flaws", and "silliness" and enjoy yourself, us, and God.

 

[Gendou Ikari]

Another thing I am curious about. And this question goes for Gendou Ikari and peace4all too. Just imagine for the moment (just theoretically speaking) that the God we speak of does exist. Imagine that when you die, somehow, you go to heaven and are able to meet this God. Would you be comfortable around a God like that? I guess I'm curious if you would just forget about the "contradictions", "flaws", and "silliness" and enjoy yourself, us, and God.

I would not be comfortable if this God is torturing souls in a bloody place called Hell. Sue me, I care about others.

 

[Quath]

And I would take it that verses like 2 Kings 14:1-6 (Deut. 24:16) and Hosea 9:15 or Luke 14:26 are some of the contradictions. Among many I assume. Would you accept any explaination? Or is it just clear cut? I'm just curious, because I could offer explainations.

I wouldn't say clear cut. For example, if I just look at the Old Testament and Judiasm, I see the Bible saying that people are responsible for their own sins. Jews don't see the Garden of Eden story being about original sin. So they don't try to interpret the rest of the Bible in that context. So there is no contradiction with inheriented sin and being accountable for your own sin.

But there are places in the Old Testament where innocents are killed for their father's sin. (For example, the thief of Jerico was killed along with his children before God would bless the Israelites.) However, people back then saw that killing relatives was more of a punishment to the father than it was a punishment to those killed. So if you believe in that morality, then you can believe that each is responsible for their own sins and believe that people can die for the sins of another. However, that morality completely ignores the innocents and only focuses on the guilty.

As society has progressed, we have come to the conclusion that the Golden Rule should apply to everyone. So by today's standards and by todays belief that everyone has value, the Old Testament is a book that is about a lot of injustice and needless punishments.

Another thing I am curious about. And this question goes for Gendou Ikari and peace4all too. Just imagine for the moment (just theoretically speaking) that the God we speak of does exist. Imagine that when you die, somehow, you go to heaven and are able to meet this God. Would you be comfortable around a God like that? I guess I'm curious if you would just forget about the "contradictions", "flaws", and "silliness" and enjoy yourself, us, and God.

I would have to know who God really was. If the Old Testament libeled God, then I may could accept him. If the Old Testament described him accurately, then I don't think I would want to be around such a being.

 

[Solo]

I would not be comfortable if this God is torturing souls in a bloody place called Hell. Sue me, I care about others.

If you care about others, then repent, believe, and follow Jesus. I doubt that you care about others more than Jesus and those that follow him. It looks like that story is just an out so that you can escape the responsibility of your error.

 

[Veritas]

Quate wrote:
I wouldn't say clear cut. For example, if I just look at the Old Testament and Judiasm, I see the Bible saying that people are responsible for their own sins. Jews don't see the Garden of Eden story being about original sin. So they don't try to interpret the rest of the Bible in that context. So there is no contradiction with inheriented sin and being accountable for your own sin.

I was somewhat aware of that, but that is interesting. It would make sense that the ancient Jews and modern Jews for that matter would have a different view. Although I think there has been Jewish teachers who believed that death was a punishment brought upon mankind on account of Adam's sin, similar to original sin. Actually, I know there were teachers like this in Talmudic times.

I am aware that Paul is actually the one who really fleshes out the idea of original sin (you were probably already aware of that?) in Romans 5:12-19 and 1 Corinthians 15:22. Jesus alludes to it as well; an example is in Mark 10:17-18.

Quath wrote:
But there are places in the Old Testament where innocents are killed for their father's sin. (For example, the thief of Jerico was killed along with his children before God would bless the Israelites.) However, people back then saw that killing relatives was more of a punishment to the father than it was a punishment to those killed. So if you believe in that morality, then you can believe that each is responsible for their own sins and believe that people can die for the sins of another. However, that morality completely ignores the innocents and only focuses on the guilty.

I agree this is the way ancients thought.

Quath wrote:
As society has progressed, we have come to the conclusion that the Golden Rule should apply to everyone. So by today's standards and by todays belief that everyone has value, the Old Testament is a book that is about a lot of injustice and needless punishments.

Makes sense. Well, I should say it makes sense how one could come to this conclusion about God. I also think the Golden Rule is great and am glad that individuals are valued more. But I do think the Golden Rule has its drawbacks if it is standing on its own (which I now remember speaking to you about a long time ago).

 

[Veritas]

Gendou Ikari wrote:
I would not be comfortable if this God is torturing souls in a bloody place called Hell. Sue me, I care about others.

And if not? Some Christians don't accept that God will do that, check out the Universal Reconciliation debates in the Apologetics section. Personally, I do not suscribe to UR but I do hope everyone will go to heaven, and I believe God does too.

Quath wrote:
I would have to know who God really was. If the Old Testament libeled God, then I may could accept him. If the Old Testament described him accurately, then I don't think I would want to be around such a being.

You know, some Christians believe the writers of the Old Testament misunderstood what God intended to reveal to them in some cases, certainly the characters do. In my opinion, this seems to bring up contradictions with what Jesus says about the OT being perfect as given to us, but maybe I'm wrong and it can be worked out. I have Christian friends that don't think its a contradiction.

What about Jesus as an example of God? Is He somebody maybe you could accept?

 

[Gendou Ikari]

If you care about others, then repent, believe, and follow Jesus. I doubt that you care about others more than Jesus and those that follow him. It looks like that story is just an out so that you can escape the responsibility of your error.

If God/Jesus truly loved others more than I do, He would abolish hell from existence. It is a loving act, maybe not in line with your concept of "justice," but it is surely loving. If I would abolish Hell in a heart beat and God would not, who is more loving towards humanity?

"Nothing could add to the horror of hell, except the presence of its creator, God. While I have life, as long as I draw breath, I shall deny with all my strength, and hate with every drop of my blood, this infinite lie." -- Robert Ingersoll

 

[Solo]

If God/Jesus truly loved others more than I do, He would abolish hell from existence. It is a loving act, maybe not in line with your concept of "justice," but it is surely loving. If I would abolish Hell in a heart beat and God would not, who is more loving towards humanity?

"Nothing could add to the horror of hell, except the presence of its creator, God. While I have life, as long as I draw breath, I shall deny with all my strength, and hate with every drop of my blood, this infinite lie." -- Robert Ingersoll

1 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; 2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; 4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. 7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them. 8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: 9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;) 10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord. 11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. 12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret. 13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light. 14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light. 15 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise, 16 Redeeming the time, because the days are evil. 17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is. Ephesians 5:1-16

"This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." -- Jesus (John 15:12-13)

 

[Gendou Ikari]

Solo, If what you are saying is true about the Christian God, the verse should read, "God is Justice," not "God is Love." Only a mere suggestion that would clear up a lot of confusion as to where your God stands.

 

[Solo]

Solo, If what you are saying is true about the Christian God, the verse should read, "God is Justice," not "God is Love." Only a mere suggestion that would clear up a lot of confusion as to where your God stands.

God reveals himself in scripture, not in my words. If my words contradict scripture, then they are lies. You, on the other hand, have no idea of the truth or scriptures, just opinions.

 

[Blazin Bones]

Gendou, what makes you presume God being love is so far from God being just. I'm just curious.

 

[Justice]

I see no value in worshiping anything.

But everybody does. It maybe sex, booze, drugs, money, spouse/family, materialistic stuff, mother earth, yourself or combination of things.

If you look at myths, you see why people created them. People wonder why a storm killed a lot of people. They believed back then that storms must have a consciousness. They believed that storms had intent. These ge translated into "gods."

So when the israelites won a battle, it was because of God. When they lost it must also be because of God. They would then try to make sense of it all because they wanted a god on their side just like their enemy claimed.

Add in talking donkeys, people traveling inside whales, talking snakes, and all sorts of magic and it looks like all other mythologies from around the world. It is very hard to see this from within your belief system. It would be like asking a Muslim to realize that the Quran sounds made up. They can not objectively look at it and at other made up books and see a similarity, event though most people here could do so easily.

You mentioned the Israelites are they mythical??? Myths fade but throughout time God's word and his Church still stands. You have no ideal what spirituality is, do you???

You say you used to be a Christian.

I'm wondering when did you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior???

How did you know that you were saved/a Christian???

What did salvation feel like???

Did you ever feel the presence of the Holy Spirit???

The Heaven's Gate cult and the followers of David Koresh were not looking to be straightened out either. However, I think all of here would have liked it better if they looked at their religion a little more skeptically.

In every belief there's going to be some insane elements. Perhaps you could have straightened out men like --- Vladimir Lenin, Joseph Stalin, Mao Tse Tung, Fidel Castro, Pol Pot, Robert Mugabe and many more like them.

At least 180 million people have been killed by secular/atheist governments in the 20th Century.

Can you see the danger???

Even with prayer in schools, the pledge, in God we trust and so forth, we have never lived under a Christian theocracy, nor will we.

School prayers ended in 1963 (action started by atheist Madalyn O'Hair). 10 years later Roe vs Wade. From 1973 to 2005 there have been 47,282.923 abortions. Why is it when atheists/secular societies take hold the death toll raises???

There again if you can't see the danger it may as well be "mythical" numbers.

Justice

 

[Quath]

But everybody does. It maybe sex, booze, drugs, money, spouse/family, materialistic stuff, mother earth, yourself or combination of things.

Worship is to hold something sacred to the point where its value can not be questioned and your loyality is to that idea or god. I don't have anything in my life that is like that.

You mentioned the Israelites are they mythical???

No more mythical than the Torjans in the Illiad.

Myths fade but throughout time God's word and his Church still stands.

The Hindu religion still stands, but we wouldn't argue that its age means it is correct. Incorrects truths can survive the test of time when you do not scientific method to validate a claim.

You have no ideal what spirituality is, do you???

On some level I do, but not on others.

I'm wondering when did you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior???

How did you know that you were saved/a Christian???

I grew up with the belief, so as soon as Jesus and God were explained, I believed. I knew I was saved when my preacher asked me about my beliefs and then later on baptised me. I just believed I was saved because I believed that Jesus had died for my sins.

What did salvation feel like???

I can only compare my feelings before and after I lost belief. Afterwards, the world made a lot more sense before. I also stopped trying to understand a god that was making less and less sense to me the more I learned.

Did you ever feel the presence of the Holy Spirit???

At times, I thought I did. But I later realized that I had expected to feel it and had mentally tricked myself. You can see this with psychics. I saw one experiment where a psychic would tell a woman that he was mentally tickling the back of her ear or was warming an organ. The woman said she felt it. Then later, the psychic revealed he was a fraud and that he had no power.

In every belief there's going to be some insane elements.

The danger is in a dogtmatic ideololgy that is not up for questioning. This holds up for any belief. For example, dogmatic belief in communism or democracy can be extremely bad.

 

[Veritas]

Quate wrote:
Worship is to hold something sacred to the point where its value can not be questioned and your loyality is to that idea or god. I don't have anything in my life that is like that.

Logic maybe?

Quath wrote:
I grew up with the belief, so as soon as Jesus and God were explained, I believed. I knew I was saved when my preacher asked me about my beliefs and then later on baptised me. I just believed I was saved because I believed that Jesus had died for my sins.
......
I can only compare my feelings before and after I lost belief. Afterwards, the world made a lot more sense before. I also stopped trying to understand a god that was making less and less sense to me the more I learned.

Sounds a little like my experience. I had faith when I was young, I grew up going to church. I lost it when I started learning things, much for the same reason you did. I, however, did become quite interested in other religions and philosophies like hinduism, buddhism, and postmodern thought. So that may be different.

Later, I started to appreciate the depth of thought in the Bible and the impact it's had on the world. A convert from hinduism to Christ actually had alot to do with explaining this to me. He also explained to me how much Jesus stands apart from other gods. So, I really started thinking about the Word again. In the end, "Reason" had alot to do with leading me back to faith. But faith is different than reason, I know. Faith is a leap.

The man's name is Ravi. He actually has a website, check it out if you like. His radio shows are quite interesting, you can download them.
http://www.rzim.org/