TULIP - Irresistible Grace

[NewLifeInChrist]

That doesn't say what you want it to.

1 Corinthians 1:21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.

It just says that God decided to save people by having them hear the gospel and believe it.
Again, it is a fact that most people in the last 2,000 years have not heard that preaching.

That doesn't seem like a wise plan if you want every human being to be saved.

Romans 1 tells us plainly that those who reject God do so with full knowledge of the things that can be known about God. They are without excuse because God personally showed them those things. They knew the things God told them were true, but they chose to reject them. Calvinism says their choice to act in adverse opposition to their own intersts is pre-ordained and they have no ability to act otherwise. I have not known Calvinism to say that God is unable or unwilling to reveal Himself and His Godhead to everyone.

Concerning the spread of the gospel, God is involved in every salvation experience because no one can go to Jesus unless the Father draws them (Jn 6:44). He is the lead evangelist, and everyone who hears Him and learns from Him goes to Jesus for salvation (Jn 6:45), and Jesus saves everyone who goes to Him (Jn 6:37). Calvinism adds to God's gospel message which He preaches to everyone the false concept that only those chosen beforehand by God are able to hear and believe what God is telling them. Those chosen ones have no ability to refuse to hear or believe and those not chosen have no ability to hear or believe.

So, in reality, what we have here is God benevolently broadcasting to all human beings His offer of salvation in Christ, and God saving those who trust Him. It is indeed a wise plan. And it is available to all people.

We think that God chose those He wanted to save before the foundation of the world, and then makes sure they hear the gospel and believe it. The rest of the people He just passes over.

Philippians 1:29 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, . . .
John 6:37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, . . .

That verses needs to be changed into "all that the Father saw would believe in me the Father gives to me."
Also, not just those the Father saw would believe in Jesus, but it has to be those who endured to the end.
The Father wouldn't give somebody who starts to believe and then falls away to Jesus.
And this gets into the "once saved always saved." Nobody is given to Jesus that the Father sees fall away. Therefore, only those who endure to the end are given and thus the only ones that are saved and saved forever.

You mean reject it one time? A 20 year old who rejects the gospel can't change his mind 20 years later and accept the gospel?

It is a matter of God's longsuffering that He tolerates people who reject His wooings over a lifetime but then turn to Him in the dawn of their lives. That's the essence of 2 Peter 3:9...

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. (2 Pe 3:9)​

 

[brightfame52]

I plainly said that you saying Calvinism and the Gospel message of the cross is the same thing is blasphemy.

Most Calvinist’s don’t believe the things you teach, such as being saved before you hear and believe the Gospel.


That my friend is a Christ-less gospel.

I have explained to you, Calvinism, Tulip are Truths of the Gospel, and you reject them, so to me you reject the Gospel, and call it now Christless, Blasphemy, in my opinion you are blaspheming God and the Gospel, may He have mercy on you.

 

[JLB]

I have explained to you, Calvinism, Tulip are Truths of the Gospel, and you reject them

I reject the false teachings of man.


Do you believe a person must first be born again, regenerated, saved before they believe the Gospel?

 

[GodsGrace]

Because if you don't do it you will suffer forever gnashing your teeth and weeping.

I agree.
We come to Jesus for salvation.
This is good news.

But they claimed a way of salvation or nirvana or whatever apart from God's method.
Muhammad claimed he was serving Allah, a god that has no son.

You brought them up,,,not me.
I don't care to discuss other religions.
There is only one way to salvation:
Believe in the one true God.
Obey Him.

The short answer is they hear the gospel preached (or maybe read it in a Bible in a hotel) and believe it, get baptized and are pronounced saved.

Agreed.

The more technical answer is that God chooses Joe Blow before the foundation of the world, God works it out that Joe Blow hears the gospel, the Holy Spirit opens his heart to believe and so he does.
Joe Blow is not saved before he believes, but he is chosen to be saved at a specific time and place of God's choosing.

Ooops.
And here you leave mainline Christianity in order to follow MEN that invented a god that does not exist.
Just like the one Muhammad and Buddha invented.
Some other men that have created man-made religions that have come about in the past few hundred years that NEVER EXISTED before...just like calvinism:
John Smith
Charles Russell
Ellen White and there are probably others.

Personally, I like to follow what Jesus taught:
John 3:16 WHOSOVER BELIEVES IN ME WILL BE SAVED.
WHOSOEVER...

Please post scripture that states that God CHOSE JOE from the beginning of time.

God simply passes over the rest of mankind and leaves them alone. He does not make them not believe. He may do that to some people as a judicial act after their rebelling against Him like He did to most of the Jews in that last generation.

God "just passes over" the rest of mankind?
That doesn't sound so bad.
Except for the fact that the ones he passively passes over are going straight to hell for eternity.
Sounds very bad.

So you believe in a God that sends some to heaven...
for no reason at all..
and most to hell...
for no reason at all.

I'll wait for the scripture

I didn't say you actually said that. But I have heard it a million times.

Then state it in that way.
thanks.

 

[GodsGrace]

I have explained to you, Calvinism, Tulip are Truths of the Gospel, and you reject them, so to me you reject the Gospel, and call it now Christless, Blasphemy, in my opinion you are blaspheming God and the Gospel, may He have mercy on you.

Calvinism blasphemes God.
Calvinism believes God created evil.
This is attributing to God what satan does.
THIS is blasphemy.

God predestinated EVERYTHING from the beginning of the world, BEFORE the beginning of time.
If you are a reformed/calvinist believer, then you believe this.

If you believe this,,,you are blaspheming God.

 

[brightfame52]

I reject the false teachings of man.


Do you believe a person must first be born again, regenerated, saved before they believe the Gospel?

You rejecting the Gospel of God and have been duped into thinking its of man

 

[brightfame52]

GodsGrace

Calvinism blasphemes God.

Tulip is the Gospel, and thats how you fell about it. Not good, may God have mercy on you and grant you repentance.

 

[Whatever]

Personally, I like to follow what Jesus taught:
John 3:16 WHOSOVER BELIEVES IN ME WILL BE SAVED.
WHOSOEVER...

Me too. I won't bother giving passages I have given 100 times before.

Please post scripture that states that God CHOSE JOE from the beginning of time.

So now it has to actually have each person's name in the Bible?

2 Thessalonians 2:13 (ASV) But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth

So you believe in a God that sends some to heaven...
for no reason at all..
and most to hell...
for no reason at all.

It's "the no reason at all" that shows me your enmity.

If you believe this,,,you are blaspheming God.

Actually I would say if you don't believe this you are blaspheming God and are worshiping a false god.
I would advise you to read all of the Bible and meditate on it. Look up the doctrine of Providence and think about it.

 

[Whatever]

Romans 1 tells us plainly that those who reject God do so with full knowledge of the things that can be known about God. They are without excuse because God personally showed them those things.

But those things are not the gospel. They should know there is a creator. But does nature teach them that God sent His Son to die for them and they must accept it.

Psalm 147:19 He declares His word to Jacob, His statutes and His judgments to Israel. 20 He has not dealt thus with any nation; And as for His judgments, they have not known them. Praise the LORD!

Why did God have to declare His word to Jacob and His judgments to Israel if they should have known them from what is made?

I think you are reading way to much in those Romans 1 passages.

 

[GodsGrace]

Me too. I won't bother giving passages I have given 100 times before.

So now it has to actually have each person's name in the Bible?

YOU used the name JOE.
You even gave him a last name.

You're using JOE as an example...
I did the same back.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth

PREDESTINATION is ALWAYS as to:
METHOD
PURPOSE

Now read your verse again and see if you could see one of those 2 in there:

YOUR verse (I don't even know what version it is--)
2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth
Hint: It's regarding METHOD.
Look for it.
WHAT did God do from the beginning?
WHAT did God choose?
It's a HOW/METHOD.....
never a WHO.

It's "the no reason at all" that shows me your enmity.

The NO REASON AT ALL shows my enmity.
Exactly right.

Because God is a JUST God.
He gives to each person what that person deserves.
THIS is what justice is.

If God picks person for heaven or hell BASED ON NO REASON AT ALL....
then how is He a just God?
Paul teaches that God is just. The following shows that
God gives us the REASON why we will go to be with Him, or go to be with satan:

Romans 2:5-10
5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

1. Paul is teaching that God is righteous in His judgment.

2. God will render to each person WHAT THEY DESERVE.
(the choice will NOT be arbitrary....having no reason at all).

3. Those who PERSEVERE IN DOING GOOD will receive eternal life.

4. Tribulation and distress for those who do evil.

5. Peace and honor to everyone who does good.


See W....God LET'S US KNOW what we are to do to achieve heaven.
This is because God is a just God.

Actually I would say if you don't believe this you are blaspheming God and are worshiping a false god.
I would advise you to read all of the Bible and meditate on it. Look up the doctrine of Providence and think about it.

If I don't believe what?
I went back to check and don't know what you're referring to.
Since you're accusing me of blaspheming God,,,I'll appreciate knowing what you're referring to.

The Doctrine of Providence is not in the bible W.
You're using a calvinist term that IS NOT in the bible.

Or maybe the idea is there but not this term.
Please post it.

 

[GodsGrace]

Romans 1 tells us plainly that those who reject God do so with full knowledge of the things that can be known about God. They are without excuse because God personally showed them those things. They knew the things God told them were true, but they chose to reject them. Calvinism says their choice to act in adverse opposition to their own intersts is pre-ordained and they have no ability to act otherwise. I have not known Calvinism to say that God is unable or unwilling to reveal Himself and His Godhead to everyone.

Concerning the spread of the gospel, God is involved in every salvation experience because no one can go to Jesus unless the Father draws them (Jn 6:44). He is the lead evangelist, and everyone who hears Him and learns from Him goes to Jesus for salvation (Jn 6:45), and Jesus saves everyone who goes to Him (Jn 6:37). Calvinism adds to God's gospel message which He preaches to everyone the false concept that only those chosen beforehand by God are able to hear and believe what God is telling them. Those chosen ones have no ability to refuse to hear or believe and those not chosen have no ability to hear or believe.

So, in reality, what we have here is God benevolently broadcasting to all human beings His offer of salvation in Christ, and God saving those who trust Him. It is indeed a wise plan. And it is available to all people.

It is a matter of God's longsuffering that He tolerates people who reject His wooings over a lifetime but then turn to Him in the dawn of their lives. That's the essence of 2 Peter 3:9...

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. (2 Pe 3:9)​

Great post!


I just would like to add ... re Phil 1:29 that the other poster brought up.
This is used a lot by the reformed but, as usual, it doesn't mean what they think
it does.

1:29 NASB
29 For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,

GRANTED means:
PERMIT
ALLOW
GIVE PERMISSION

It has nothing to do with predestinating a person to believe in Him.

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

But those things are not the gospel. They should know there is a creator. But does nature teach them that God sent His Son to die for them and they must accept it.

Psalm 147:19 He declares His word to Jacob, His statutes and His judgments to Israel. 20 He has not dealt thus with any nation; And as for His judgments, they have not known them. Praise the LORD!

Why did God have to declare His word to Jacob and His judgments to Israel if they should have known them from what is made?

I think you are reading way to much in those Romans 1 passages.

I don't think so. Let's review some key points from Romans 1...

1. what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them (Ro 1:19)
   "what may be known of God" are the things that are knowable by human beings, and God personally "shows" all those things to men (by direct revelation).
2. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness (Ro 1:18).
   One of the things that is revealed about God to all people is His wrath against ungodliness and unrighteousness. But some people "suppress" these truths. Though it is not in Romans, Paul wrote this... "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men" (Tt 2:11).
3. although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful (Ro 1:21)
   They knew Him, but they refused to glorify Him as God and they were not thankful. What were they not thankful for? His goodness and grace? Probably.
4. knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death (Ro 1:32).
   What a sad point of view it is to think that the only thing a lost person can discern about God is the knowledge that they derserve eternal damnation for for their sins. And it is especially sad to think that some will connect the dots upon hearing the gospel message that there is forgiveness of sins in Christ but then are forbidden to believe and be saved.

 

[Whatever]

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth
Hint: It's regarding METHOD.
Look for it.
WHAT did God do from the beginning?
WHAT did God choose?
It's a HOW/METHOD.....

What did God choose? The people in the church of the Thessalonians.
2Th 1:3 We ought always to give thanks to God for you
, . . .and the love of every one of you . . .
2Th 1:4 Therefore we ourselves boast about you . . .your steadfastness and faith in all your persecutions and in the afflictions that you are enduring.
2Th 1:5 . . .you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering
2Th 1:6 since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you,
2Th 1:7 and to grant relief to you who are afflicted
2Th 1:11 To this end we always pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his calling
2Th 1:12 so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you

What about others?
2Th 2:11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false,
2Th 2:12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

BUT
2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,

Chose what:
God from the beginning chose you members of the church of the Thessalonians
For what purpose:
you for salvation
HOW:
through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth
WHY DID GOD CHOOSE THEM
2Ti 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

not according to our works like praying, believing, getting baptized, reading the Bible, going to Church, feeding the poor but according to His own purpose like glorifying Himself.

Isa_43:7 everyone who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made.”

Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

Oh yeah what is the method people are saved in 2 Thess 2:13?

Through sanctification by the Spirit: By sanctification is meant, not anything external, as reformation of life, obedience to the law, or outward submission to Gospel ordinances; but internal holiness, which lies in a principle of spiritual life in the soul, and in a principle of spiritual light on the understanding; in a bending of the will to the will of God, and the way of salvation by Christ; in a settlement of the affections on divine and spiritual things, and in an implantation of all grace in the heart; and is called the sanctification of "the spirit", partly from the spirit or soul of man being the principal seat of it, and chiefly from the Spirit of God being the author of it; and this being a means fixed in the decree of election to salvation, shows that holiness is not the cause of election, yet is certain by it, and is necessary to salvation; and that the doctrine of election is no licentious doctrine, since it provides for and secures true and real holiness.

This might help you understand what Paul is saying here:
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one.

The natural man is just the man as he is by nature. The spiritual man is the man who has had the sanctification of the Spirit work on him.

 

[hawkman]

Please notate what Bible version the scripture you quote is !

Bible Version References
All Bible verses and passages must be referenced (NASB, NIV, etc.) unless it is public domain like the KJV, YLT, etc.
Info on copyrights can be found at BibleGateway - Available Versions
This is not just a request, it's the law.

 

[Whatever]

What a sad point of view it is to think that the only thing a lost person can discern about God is the knowledge that they derserve eternal damnation for for their sins.

I don't think even this has been revealed to men. Most only think about this life and have developed some ceremonies to please or placate god to give them good crops or stop some disease.

One of the things that is revealed about God to all people is His wrath against ungodliness and unrighteousness.

You would be hard pressed to tell people that today. Everything is just Mother Nature.

"what may be known of God" are the things that are knowable by human beings, and God personally "shows" all those things to men (by direct revelation).

What does that direct revelation look like? Dreams, visions? I think it is more indirect. More like an instinct. And that is warped by their fallen nature.

And it is especially sad to think that some will connect the dots upon hearing the gospel message that there is forgiveness of sins in Christ but then are forbidden to believe and be saved.

It is sad, but I accept what Scripture says.

2 Thessalonians 2:10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Yeah, I connect the dots and let Scripture say what it says. God will send people a strong delusion so they will believe a lie and be condemned. Now I don't think God personally does this Himself, He lets Satan or some other lying spirit do it. (I Kings 22:20-23 and 2 Chronicles 18:19-21)

 

[JLB]

GodsGrace



Tulip is the Gospel, and thats how you fell about it. Not good, may God have mercy on you and grant you repentance.

Do you believe the term the “world” refers to people who are already saved (elect) in John 3:16 ?

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16 NKJV

You rejecting the Gospel of God and have been duped into thinking its of man

Do you believe a person must first be born again, regenerated, saved before they believe the Gospel?

 

[NewLifeInChrist]

Please notate what Bible version the scripture you quote is !

Sorry. Is it ok to put a statement in the signature that says all verses quoted are from NKJV unless otherwise stated?

 

[hawkman]

Sorry. Is it ok to put a statement in the signature that says all verses quoted are from NKJV unless otherwise stated?

Sure ! Public domain does not have to be referenced as per the rules .

Bible Version References
All Bible verses and passages must be referenced (NASB, NIV, etc.) unless it is public domain like the KJV, YLT, etc.
Info on copyrights can be found at BibleGateway - Available Versions
This is not just a request, it's the law.

 

[brightfame52]

Do you believe the term the “world” refers to people who are already saved (elect) in John 3:16 ?

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16 NKJV




Do you believe a person must first be born again, regenerated, saved before they believe the Gospel?

Whats with all the same questions I have answered and others as well for the past 3-5 years or more ? This is what I believe, that if you reject TULIP you reject the Gospel, now go study TULIP, you want a link for it ?

 

[JLB]

Whats with all the same questions I have answered and others as well for the past 3-5 years or more ? This is what I believe, that if you reject TULIP you reject the Gospel, now go study TULIP, you want a link for it ?

Do you believe a person must first be born again, regenerated, saved before they believe the Gospel?