Why belief in Jesus' deity is essential for salvation...

[Imagican]

Packrat,

I have NOTHING against the 'word trinity'. It is the 'doctrine' of 'trinity' that I shun from. If you 'truly' understood it, you TOO would avoid it.

You, like MOST others that I have encountered in this discussion, have simply ACCEPTED something that, admittedly, even THESE are unable to fully understand. And at the expense of altering scripture in order to accept it.

By 'altering', I offer THIS as example. There is NO; God The Son offered in scripture. There is NO 'trinity' offered in scripture. There are NO 'three persons' offered in scripture.

These are THREE meager examples of the myriad that one could list.

Couple the 'altering of scripture' with the historic 'creation' of this 'doctrine' and it becomes IMMEDIATELY apparent that it is NOT Biblical.

We have been offered LITTLE so far as The Written Word is concerned. A diligent reader could read the ENTIRE Bible in just a matter of three days or so. Even a SLOW reader could read it in a couple of weeks. So, we have a VERY limited amount of the Written Word.

To alter what LITTLE we have in favor of a 'man-made' doctrine is ludicrous. We HAVE been given The Word as a means of discernment and EVEN THEN there are those that would choose to follow the 'teachings of men' rather than the Word of God. I guess, for MOST, it's simply EASIER this way.

But I will offer once again, IF no one had EVER mentioned 'trinity' to you, YOU would NOT EVEN KNOW THE WORD. For IF you simply relied upon the Written Word and the Holy Spirit as guide, there is NO 'trinity' WITHOUT it being 'taught' to an individual by ANOTHER INDIVIDUAL.

I believe that Mark has made monumental efforts to humbly offer that HE TOO understands that REGARDLESS of the relationship with Father and Son there is NO "TRINITY" in The Word.

I have NEVER denied the deity that IS Christ Jesus. Being the Son He is INHERENT of God. But, when we HAVE the words of the Son Himself offering that He offered NOTHING of His own but that which was given Him of God, I don't understand HOW one could DENY the VERY WORDS of the ONE they claim to 'worship'.

Christ IS the ONLY Begotten Son of God. NOT ONCE in the entire Bible is it written by ANYONE that an individual MUST accept the 'concept of trinity' in order to receive the 'gift offered'. NOT ONCE.

Yet I have CONTINUALLY been BOMBARDED, (as well as other that deny 'trinity'), with 'supposed' Christians TELLING me that I MUST accept 'trinity' or I CANNOT KNOW God OR His Son. Hmmmm............ What kind of 'doctrine' is this? One that would teach AGAINST The Word that offers that there is NOT A SINGLE MAN ON THIS PLANET THAT IS CAPABLE OF JUDGING SUCH MATTERS?

So, if it's 'trinity' that you CHOOSE to follow, ALL I am here offering is that YOU TOO have The Word at your disposal. IF you 'choose' to ignore The Word in favor of 'words of men' then that is CERTAINLY 'your choice' to make. I have simply offered that 'trinity' IS 'man-made' theology that is NOT backed up IN The Word or BY The Word except by those that 'choose' to 'see' it. And the ONLY WAY one is even GIVEN THE CHOICE is through the 'teachings of men' rather than The Holy Bible.

MEC

 

[Solo]

Those that believe that Jesus Christ is something other than God come in the flesh still have not explained this Scripture:

7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. 8 I [Jesus] am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. Revelation 1:7-8

 

[francisdesales]

Those that believe that Jesus Christ is something other than God come in the flesh still have not explained this Scripture:

7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. 8 I [Jesus] am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. Revelation 1:7-8

Solo,

Don't expect them to, either... It is easier to pretend it doesn't exist rather than to change one's ideas to match God's revelation.

Regards

 

[MarkT]

Those that believe that Jesus Christ is something other than God come in the flesh still have not explained this Scripture:

7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. 8 I [Jesus] am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. Revelation 1:7-8

Revelation 1:6 says he made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father.

The power of God is in his Word. It follows then that the Lord Jesus Christ is the Almighty. He is the Alpha and the Omega who is and who was and who is to come, the power of God, the Almighty.

 

[Solo]

Those that believe that Jesus Christ is something other than God come in the flesh still have not explained this Scripture:

7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. 8 I [Jesus] am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. Revelation 1:7-8

Revelation 1:6 says he made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father.

The power of God is in his Word. It follows then that the Lord Jesus Christ is the Almighty. He is the Alpha and the Omega who is and who was and who is to come, the power of God, the Almighty.

The LORD JESUS CHRIST is the ALPHA AND OMEGA, ALMIGHTY GOD according to the Scriptures in Revelation. Note that Jesus Christ the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end will give to those that thirst of the fountain of water of life freely, and HE, JESUS CHRIST will be their GOD.
The LORD JESUS CHRIST IS THE ALMIGHTY GOD according to Revelation.

6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. Revelation 21:6-7

The LORD JESUS CHRIST plainly states that HE is the ALPHA and OMEGA, the FIRST AND THE LAST, and that HE has HIS reward with HIM when HE comes.

12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Revelation 22:12-13

Only the unbelieving and false teachers do not have the Holy Spirit to reveal to them that JESUS CHRIST IS LORD JEHOVAH GOD come in the flesh.

Those who are led of the spirit of antichrist know not JESUS CHRIST as LORD JEHOVAH GOD come in the flesh, nor do they know the FATHER LORD JEHOVAH GOD, nor do they know the SPIRIT LORD JEHOVAH GOD, nor do they know the LOVE OF LORD JEHOVAH GOD. They have yet to give a rendering of the Scriptures that have been posted showing that there is ONE LORD JEHOVAH GOD, the LORD OF LORDS.

Why?

Because they are deceivers. If they were true believers, they would hear the Word of the LORD GOD and believe, but they continue in the darkness because they would not have their deeds revealed as evil.

Again, Moses declares that there is ONE LORD JEHOVAH GOD:

• 4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: Deuteronomy 6:4

Jesus also speaks the truth of there being ONE LORD JEHOVAH GOD:

• And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: Mark 12:29

The Apostles make it clear that JESUS CHRIST is ONE LORD JEHOVAH GOD:

• But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. 1 Corinthians 8:6
  
  One Lord, one faith, one baptism, Ephesians 4:5
  
  1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1
  
  26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. 27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. John 20:26-29

Who is the LORD of all LORDS? JESUS CHRIST. Let us look at Zechariah 14. Note: The Hebrew word translated LORD in English is JEHOVAH.

• 1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. 6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: 7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. 8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. 9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. Zechariah 14:1-9

It is pretty clear that Zechariah is prophesying about the LORD JEHOVAH GOD as John is prophesying in Revelation in the following verse of Scripture:

• 11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. Revelation 19:11-16

Keep in mind that those who deceive must reject and call the Words of Almighty God a lie. I have yet to see any of these speak concerning the Scriptures that I have been led to post. May God bless those who are being called to be the children of God, and may God protect each of your with His love and hedge of protection from this day onward. May the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY bind up the evil spirit of antichrist from this board, and reveal the truth to the sheep as they are being fed the Word of God in the name of JESUS CHRIST. May the evil spirits be rebuked by the LORD JESUS CHRIST.

 

[MarkT]

The LORD JESUS CHRIST plainly states that HE is the ALPHA and OMEGA, the FIRST AND THE LAST, and that HE has HIS reward with HIM when HE comes.

John heard the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation Rev. 3 :14 say, "I am the Alpha and the Omega" and he saw one like a son of man. When he was taken up in the Spirit, Rev. 4:1,2, he saw the heavenly things, the Father, the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb.

 

[Solo]

The LORD JESUS CHRIST plainly states that HE is the ALPHA and OMEGA, the FIRST AND THE LAST, and that HE has HIS reward with HIM when HE comes.

John heard the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation Rev. 3 :14 say, "I am the Alpha and the Omega" and he saw one like a son of man. When he was taken up in the Spirit, Rev. 4:1,2, he saw the heavenly things, the Father, the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb.

Why do the false teachers quote just pieces of Scripture just like satan did when he tempted Jesus Christ in the wilderness? Because they are the children of the devil and the goal of the spirit of antichrist is to keep the truth from individuals:

• 6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. Revelation 21:6-7

Who is the LORD of all LORDS? JESUS CHRIST. Let us look at Zechariah 14. Note: The Hebrew word translated LORD in English is JEHOVAH.

• 1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. 6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: 7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. 8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. 9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. Zechariah 14:1-9

 

[jgredline]

Why do the false teachers quote just pieces of Scripture just like satan did when he tempted Jesus Christ in the wilderness? Because they are the children of the devil and the goal of the spirit of antichrist is to keep the truth from individuals

exactly!!!!

 

[MarkT]

Solo wrote:

The LORD JESUS CHRIST plainly states that HE is the ALPHA and OMEGA, the FIRST AND THE LAST, and that HE has HIS reward with HIM when HE comes.


John heard the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation Rev. 3 :14 say, "I am the Alpha and the Omega" and he saw one like a son of man. When he was taken up in the Spirit, Rev. 4:1,2, he saw the heavenly things, the Father, the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb.


Why do the false teachers quote just pieces of Scripture just like satan did when he tempted Jesus Christ in the wilderness? Because they are the children of the devil and the goal of the spirit of antichrist is to keep the truth from individuals:

6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. Revelation 21:6-7

Speaking of the city, John wrote, 'For the glory of God is it's light and it's lamp is the Lamb'. Rev. 21:23 The Lamb is the lamp of God! Truly Jesus said, "the Father is in me" and also we are in him as sons of God as he was the Son of God. Jesus said he was the temple. John saw that the holy city which came down from heaven had no temple for its temple was the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb. The Alpha and the Omega will give us the water of life. He is the temple, the dwelling of God and God himself will be with us.

 

[Solo]

The LORD JESUS CHRIST plainly states that HE is the ALPHA and OMEGA, the FIRST AND THE LAST, and that HE has HIS reward with HIM when HE comes.

John heard the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation Rev. 3 :14 say, "I am the Alpha and the Omega" and he saw one like a son of man. When he was taken up in the Spirit, Rev. 4:1,2, he saw the heavenly things, the Father, the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb.

Why do the false teachers quote just pieces of Scripture just like satan did when he tempted Jesus Christ in the wilderness? Because they are the children of the devil and the goal of the spirit of antichrist is to keep the truth from individuals:

6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. Revelation 21:6-7

Speaking of the city, John wrote, 'For the glory of God is it's light and it's lamp is the Lamb'. Rev. 21:23 The Lamb is the lamp of God! Truly Jesus said, "the Father is in me" and also we are in him as sons of God as he was the Son of God. Jesus said he was the temple. John saw that the holy city which came down from heaven had no temple for its temple was the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb. The Alpha and the Omega will give us the water of life. He is the temple, the dwelling of God and God himself will be with us.

Notice that the false teaching of MarkT has just quoted a piece of my previous post, without acknowledging the truth contained therein, that Jesus Christ is the LORD JEHOVAH GOD come in the flesh as designated by the Scripture of Zechariah. I will post this Scripture again for the readership to see the spurious manner in which MarkT debates his position while omitting important Scripture as satan did while tempting Jesus Christ in the wilderness.

Who is the LORD of all LORDS? JESUS CHRIST. Let us look at Zechariah 14. Note: The Hebrew word translated LORD in English is JEHOVAH.

• 1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. 6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: 7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. 8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. 9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. Zechariah 14:1-9

Why do individuals teach false doctrines pertaining to the LORDSHIP of JESUS CHRIST? Because they are being led by the spirit of antichrist, and not by the Holy Spirit just as the Scripture below states:

• 1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 1 John 4:1-3

Know that those who have the spirit of antichrist cannot acknowledge that Jesus Christ is LORD JEHOVAH GOD, but only those who have the HOLY SPIRIT can acknowledge that JESUS CHRIST is LORD JEHOVAH GOD in the flesh.

• 3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. 1 Corinthians 12:3

Who did Isaiah prophesy that Jesus' was? He declared that Jesus would be called The Mighty God and The Everlasting Father. So the truth is that Jesus Christ is Almighty God, the Everlasting Father, Lord Jehovah God, Son of God, son of man, Saviour, LORD of Lords, KING of Kings, just to name a few. The spirit of antichrist denies that JESUS CHRIST is LORD JEHOVAH GOD come in the flesh.

• 6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Isaiah 9:6

NOTE: I have had to cleanup the quotes from the previous MarkT post to clarify who quoted what, as it appeared that "Solo wrote" all of the "quote" when in fact, it was split between MarkT and Solo as designated above.

 

[MarkT]

Notice that the false teaching of MarkT has just quoted a piece of my previous post, without acknowledging the truth contained therein, that Jesus Christ is the LORD JEHOVAH GOD come in the flesh as designated by the Scripture of Zechariah. I will post this Scripture again for the readership to see the spurious manner in which MarkT debates his position while omitting important Scripture as satan did while tempting Jesus Christ in the wilderness.

Who is the LORD of all LORDS? JESUS CHRIST. Let us look at Zechariah 14. Note: The Hebrew word translated LORD in English is JEHOVAH.

1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. 6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: 7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. 8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. 9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. Zechariah 14:1-9

Solo

At this point all I'm doing is explaining Scripture to you but you're not listening. You're too busy falsely accusing me and blaspheming my Spirit. Relax. I'm not the antiChrist.

As far as the prophets go you must recognize that it isn't Zechariah who is saying, 'On that day' and 'the LORD will give', to quote a few words. It's the LORD who is saying, 'the LORD will give' and 'a day of the LORD is coming'. So Zech. 1-4 reads as follows, 1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

Verse 1; The LORD is saying, ... No...God is saying, ... I want you to see, so I will say God is saying hoping that you will keep it in mind that the Father is the true God. God is saying, 'Behold, the day of the LORD cometh'. Maybe I should also say the LORD said, 'the day of the LORD cometh' because then you might see that the LORD is saying the day of the LORD cometh. The LORD is talking about the LORD's day like a Father speaks of his Son's day. Verse 2; The LORD is saying, ..., again I'll use God or the Father to make my self clear ... God is saying, "For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle". Keep this in mind that God directs our step. See Proverbs 16:9 So God will bring the nations together. Verse 3; 'Then the LORD shall go forth and fight against those nations' God is saying the LORD shall go forth. This is the Father who calls him the LORD. In other words the LORD calls him the LORD. We know the LORD is talking about his Son. Verse 4; 'And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives'. The LORD is saying his Son will stand upon the mount of Olives.

If you read down to verse 9, you'll see the words, 'And the LORD will become king over all the earth; on that day the LORD will be one and his name one'. Again the Father is talking about the Son. The Father said, 'the LORD will become king'.

So the Father calls him LORD and so do I. But we're far from where we started this discussion now. The question isn't whether Jesus was the LORD. I agree he was. The question is about the flesh. So this is about whether you're in the light of Christ or in the light of doctrine so that you can't see.

 

[Imagican]

1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 1 John 4:1-3

Know that those who have the spirit of antichrist cannot acknowledge that Jesus Christ is LORD JEHOVAH GOD, but only those who have the HOLY SPIRIT can acknowledge that JESUS CHRIST is LORD JEHOVAH GOD in the flesh.

WHAT a 'deceptive post' INDEED.

There is NOTHING in this scripture that EVEN INDICATES what you interpret it to SAY.

The scripture PLAINLY states;

Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

There is NO INDICATION even that one MUST confess that Jesus IS God in the flesh, but that Jesus Christ CAME in the flesh. ONLY if one has a 'preconceived NOTION that Christ IS God could one assert that the interpretation that you offer is correct. For the scripture itself says NOTHING of the sort. IN FACT, IF one so desires to dissect this scripture, it would be THOSE that DENY that it was Christ that came in the flesh that WOULD be 'anti-Christ'. And it would be those that INSIST that Jesus IS God that would DENY that Christ 'came in the flesh'. For THEIR understanding DENIES that Christ was ANYTHING other than God in the flesh. An OUTRIGHT denial of Christ Himself.

Solo, I can only say this; IF your words ARE true, then it THOSE that INSIST that Jesus IS God that have DENIED that Christ CAME IN THE FLESH. For we KNOW that Jesus Christ IS the SON OF GOD. NO amount of 'word twisting' is ABLE to alter this in ANY way EXCEPT in the minds and hearts of those that 'CHOOSE' to 'see it' differently.

And I will offer this as well; Those that 'understand' YOUR words have 'chosen' to follow a 'different' Christ than that offered by His Father, God. For REGARDLESS of Christ's deity, He is STILL the Son of God and NO WORDS can CHANGE this. And Son of God does NOT make God THE Son for we ALSO KNOW that God IS The Father.

You have used you 'misrepresentation' of this scripture enough. It is ONE thing to offer 'personal opinion', but this is NOT what you do here. YOU INSIST that it can ONLY be this way when in FACT, ALL you have offered is PERSONAL interpretation that has NO VALIDITY as TRUTH. ONLY opinion. And an opinion STEEPED in pre-conceived notions of Jesus Christ AS God Himself. For what is offered is Christ IN THE FLESH, NOT God in the flesh. And NOT ONLY is it NOT stated AS you indicate, it IS stated in a way that CONTRADICTS what you offer in explanation. For it STATES that; "Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:", denoting a DISTINCTION BETWEEN Jesus Christ and GOD. For one CANNOT come to the Father EXCEPT through Christ, and one CANNOT KNOW Christ except it BE REVEALED FROM the Father. Christ REVEALED the Father. And for those that accept what Christ offered, these HAVE SEEN the Father revealed THROUGH Jesus Christ.

But please believe; that which is FLESH can ONLY understand that which is OF the flesh. That which IS Spirit IS able to understand that which is REVEALED through The Spirit. And the TWO are like oil and water. They CANNOT be 'mixed' into a NEW material. One MUST be held in ONE vessel and the other in another otherwise they will REMAIN separate when contained within the SAME vessel. Figure out THIS mystery and it becomes APPARENT that 'understanding' can ONLY be obtained THROUGH The Spirit. Anything else, and I mean ANYTHING ELSE can ONLY be carnal in nature and of NONE EFFECT concerning The Truth.

So, EVEN IF Christ IS a God as you say that He is, that STILL does NOT take away that He is STILL a God with a FATHER that is ABOVE Him. A Father that Is THE God. To deny this IS to deny The Word as it has been offered. For Christ IS The Son of God. And HE stated that the Father IS 'greater' than He.

It WAS God's Son that 'took on the flesh' and to DENY this is to offer EXACTLY what YOU have accused others of doing by quoting the scripture that you offered. And I leave YOU with YOU'RE OWN stated evaluation of 'where' that has 'led' you.

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Mark,

Good job brother.

Christ is OUR LORD as God IS HIS. Christ is the HEAD of The Church as God IS the HEAD of Christ. And God IS The Father of ALL. For EVERYTHING, (pertaining to this physical universe in which we exist), was created by God through Christ. Christ was 'created' FOR God as WE were 'created' FOR Christ, as WOMAN was 'created' FOR Man.

Funny how this can be misconstrued through 'man-made' doctrine. How HARD it can 'become' to 'see' the TRUTH when one accepts the 'teachings of men' rather than that taught by God through His Son.

I know, I know, Christ couldn't POSSIBLY have been 'created'. Yet there is evidence PLENTY to support a 'created' Christ and I am NOT adverse to 'acceptance' of what has been offered in leu of a 'man-made' doctrine that won't allow for this understanding.

And women were NOT REALLY created FOR man. They are 'the same' as God and Christ are 'the same'? Huh? But this IS what the world would teach those that are void of The Spirit. The words offered TWO THOUSAND YEARS AGO have NOT CHANGED. Only those that refuse to accept them any longer. Those that 'choose' to alter them to 'fit' their carnal understanding.

And Mark, I commend you, my brother. No, I am NOT simply 'patting you one the back' for our similarities in understanding. I am offering that I AM able to recognize The Spirit that dwells within you and hope that the light that you attept to spread IS able to shine 'brightly' in the lives of those that have been living in darkness.

For as we have been warned, the words of God's wisdom are NOTHING but 'foolishness' to the world. And the LOVE of God DOES indeed shine brightly in those that 'share His Love'.

May God Bless you, my brother. You and yours.

MEC

 

[Solo]

To say that Jesus Christ is born of the flesh since he was is not a big deal to believe.

The big deal is to believe that God Almighty come in the flesh as the Scriptures teach.

The sign that one is following the spirit of antichrist is when one cannot say that the LORD JEHOVAH GOD is come in the flesh.

Jesus Christ is the LORD JEHOVAH GOD come in the flesh. This fact is only a problem to those who are following the spirit of antichrist as John points out in the book of 1 John.

 

[Veritas]

....busy thread...

Imagican, just so you know it was me who said:
Is it just that you don't like the word "Trinity"? The concept you just put forth is it.

And MarkT, I'll begin by quoting you,

MarkT wrote:
But it's not Scripture. Why would you waste your time interpreting doctrine?

I believe it is in Scripture. I don't agree with how you read Scripture.

MarkT wrote:
We see things in the light of Christ. The church, on the other hand gives you a doctrine to see by. Is the doctrine the light? No. Jesus said he was the light. How can you examine the doctrine without light? If you make the doctrine your light then how can you examine it?

I feel like we're mixing up terms around here - (doctrine, church, light).

If the Word has a doctrine in it, I'm going to follow it.

If I'm among the true church, which is Christ's body, I will be a part of it.

If Christ gives me a doctrine I consider that light.

MarkT wrote:
I think what it comes down to is faithful; how faithful you are to the words that Jesus gave us. In other words, if I gave you a message, could I count on you to deliver it as I gave it. For example, Jesus said, "I am the Son of God". The faithful servant would say he was the Son of God.

I do say that.

MarkT wrote:
Likewise, Jesus said, "do this in remembrance of me". The faithful servant would eat the bread and drink the cup in remembrance of him. The unfaithful servant eats and drinks to be in communion with God.

Maybe who you think is an "unfaithful" servant is merely balancing Jesus statement "do this in remembrance of me" with his other statement "This IS my body and this IS my blood.

MarkT wrote:
Jesus said, "I am the light" and he taught us that we are the light. So the faithful servant would say he was the light and we are in his light and we are the light. I don't know what the unfaithful servants say about this.

Well, if you consider me unfaithful, I'll tell you. I would say that we are a light, but partially right now. And with the body, the church, we become more fully light, but this all is yet to be fully realized when we meet with Him.

MarkT wrote:
The unfaithful servant would say he was God.

I couldn't disagree with you more.

That would make Luke an unfaithful servant for recording as he did:
"Return home and tell how much God has done for you." So the man went away and told all over town how much Jesus had done for him. Luke 8:39

It would also mean Matthew was unfaithful:
"The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" â€â€which means, "God with us." Matthew 1:23

...and Thomas:
Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!" John 20:28

...and Paul:
God was manifested in the flesh. 1Timothy3:16

These are just off the top of my head, there are more that present Jesus as God in Scripture. Read them plainly please. I still disagree with how you read Titus. You're explainations are very complicated and I do not believe that Scripture is meant to be so complicated. Children can "get it".

Do what you can with your 'reason' and when Scripture logically leads you to a conclusion that your mind can't quite grasp, fine, accept that. Dont try to claim that all can be explained away and then go on to be illogical with your arguements.

Look at how you have interpreted a verse where Jesus says plainly that He is "LORD", or that He is "I AM". You've read that, accepted that, and still go on to deny that He is God. You're not working plainly and logically from the text. "LORD" is the same thing as "I AM who I AM". God gave his name as "I AM" in exodus as well as "I AM who I AM".

On a side note, and speaking personally for myself, Jesus is my God, and I'm looking forward to embracing my God. I'll probably be weeping with joy at His feet. I will reach out and touch his hand, look into to His eyes, listen, talk...smile - and be filled with peace that I can relate to God in this way.

 

[AVBunyan]

1 Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh,

MAN'IFEST, a. [L. manifestus.]
1. Plain, open, clearly visible to the eye or obvious to the understanding; apparent; not obscure or difficult to be seen or understood.

MAN'IFESTED, pp. Made clear; disclosed; made apparent, obvious or evident.

MAN'IFEST, v.t. [L. manifesto.] To reveal; to make to appear; to show plainly; to make public; to disclose to the eye or to the understanding.

MANIFESTA'TION, n. The act of disclosing what is secret, unseen or obscure; discovery to the eye or to the understanding; the exhibition of any thing by clear evidence;

This is clear as it stands. God is a spirit (which cannot be seen) so... in order for one to see him he became flesh for all to see. If one wanted to see God then all they had to do was to look at Christ in the Gospels.

Hang in there Solo -

BTW - for you doubters - How come the greatest Puritan writers, missionaries, preachers, and evangelists never questioned the deity of Christ and now all of a sudden you folks "get it right"? Would you please at least comment of this.

God bless

 

[Imagican]

Av,

I like you bud. BUT, that will not stop me from attempting to 'lead' even YOU in the proper direction.

Your question is EASILY offered with EVIDENCE that is UNREFUTABLE except by those that INSIST upon following MEN rather than God and His Son through The Spirit. Here we go;

My brother, have you NOT read the warnings offered BY THE APOSTLES and CHRIST Himself? Now, let's LOOK at these WARNINGS.

We were WARNED that there WOULD come those that would ALTER the simplicity that IS Christ Jesus. We were WARNED that there WOULD come those that would 'sell out' their brothers and sisters for 'filthy lucres sake'. We were WARNED that there would come those that would ALTER the Word as DELIVERED into 'something DIFFERENT' than that offered. And we were offered that this had ALREADY begun during the time of the apostles.

The ANSWER to your question lies HERE. For 'straight IS the gate, and narrow the way, that leadeth unto life and FEW there BE that FIND IT'.

The answer is that there were MANY that 'chose' to LEAD others REGARDLESS of the TRUTH. And Satan has been WORKING OVER-TIME in order to 'subvert' the Word of God into 'something DIFFERENT' than what was 'originally offered'. 'Trinity' is but ONE of these 'alterations'.

You know, if I had the POWER to start a systematic ELIMINATION of ANYONE that refuted what I had to offer concerning ANY subject, EVENTUALLY I could have EVERYONE under my control accept ANYTHING that I insisted upon. And EVENTUALLY they would 'forget' that there had EVER been; ANOTHER WAY.

That is EXACTLY the answer to your question. WAY before there was the ability for ANY other than the Catholic Church to record and MAINTAIN written records of history, they SYSTEMATICALLY eliminated ALL that taught ANYTHING different than what THEY TAUGHT. Did SUCH an EFFICIENT JOB at it that; EVEN today, the MAJOR denominations are doing NOTHING other than 'carrying on' in the SAME traditions taught to their 'forefathers' OVER A THOUSAND YEARS AGO.

Void of THE SPIRIT, (please note that I did NOT say A spirit), these simply followed BLINDLY that which they had been TAUGHT to 'believe'. NOT what was offered THROUGH The Spirit, but REINFORCED through 'a spirit' that DELIGHTED in their ignorance.

Av, WHY do you suppose SO MANY, so called Christians, are SO AFRAID of 'dying'? I CAN answer that question FOR YOU. Why do you 'suppose' SO MANY, so called Christians are NO LESS sinners than those that DON'T even proclaim Christ AS their Savior? Why do you suppose that there is SO MUCH controversy among the 'different' denominations? Why do YOU suppose that those that CLAIM to 'be' Christians are ABLE to look down upon those that they consider LOST and SEPARATE themselves from those that NEED their LOVE the MOST?

I can give you AN answer to these questions and MANY MANY more. But the question is; COULD you ACCEPT the 'truth'? Doubtful. For you have CHOSEN to follow teachings that will NOT let you 'understand' the TRUTH. I know, I know, you DO know the Truth and there is NOTHING that I can offer to refute YOUR truth. Such a shame. And Av, I'll BET you that you have been a 'Christian' for MANY MANY years LONGER than I have even KNOWN God through His Son. Bet you. But then, like MOST "Christians' that I have encountered, there is LITTLE understanding offered through 'churches' and that's ALL most know ANYTHING about; what the 'churches' have LED them to 'believe'.

These that you mention 'got it WRONG' for these were following the rudiments of 'this WORLD' rather than the Truth as offered by Christ.

I'll BET you that I could send a 'bum' to stand next to the drive way of the BIGGEST 'church' in Orlando. Have him hold a sign that he needed MONEY and MOST of those leaving a Sunday Service would TURN their backs on this man.

And, if I could record their comments MOST would probably be offering something like THIS; 'I'm not going to give that 'bum' any of MY money to go out and 'get high'. or 'IF he NEEDS money, let him go out and work for it just like I do'.

Some such GARBAGE as this MOST would offer in defense of their IGNORING what they PROFESS to FOLLOW. How IS THIS Av? How is it that one PROFESSING to BE A CHRISTIAN could POSSIBLY deny ANYTHING to a 'brother in NEED'. Christ NEVER stated to 'find out IF a brother is TRULY in need', He stated that IF ANYONE ASKS YOU FOR ANYTHING FOR YOU TO GIVE IT. EVEN YOUR ENEMIES.

Now, YOUR doctrine will come back with SOME DEFENSE of this behavior. YOU always DO. Yet the ONLY WAY that one IS able to offer ANY defense of IGNORING what Christ offered is to be LACKING in The Spirit. For IF The Spirit WAS manifest in the hearts of those that 'claim' to BE Christians, then there is NO way that they could POSSIBLY offer ANY defense to that which they COULD NOT DO.

I have your answers, my brother, but could you HANDLE the TRUTH. So far I have found FEW here on the forums that EVEN HAVE A CLUE. And even these are MOSTLY so lost in their OWN doctrine that they couldn't see the light if it BLINDED them.

So, you 'believe' that because there HAVE been those that have PLEASED 'itching ears' with their writings and teachings that THEY were RIGHT? That is EXACTLY HOW the WORLD rewards it's OWN.

Av, do you remember reading in the Word that there was TIME that ALL the descendants of Adam and Eve were DESTROYED except ONE MAN and his family? Do you HONESTLY EVEN THINK that the world is MORE RIGHTEOUS NOW than it was THEN? If so, there is NOTHING that I can offer you that you don't KNOW better than I.

Any time ANY ONE OF YOU 'good folks' would like to KNOW a 'bit of the TRUTH', I am MORE than willing to offer it FREELY. No need for thanks, no need for MONEY, no need to recognition AT ALL. I will generously offer FREELY that which has been given to me in abundance. For LOVE IS AVAILABLE ABUNDANTLY for the ASKING. Just BEWARE of what one MIGHT confuse with TRUE LOVE.

MEC

 

[jgredline]

Mec
Do you really believe what you preach or are you playing the devils advocate?

 

[francisdesales]

1 Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh

Ah, good one. I forgot about that one...

Having fun with the Imagican pinata?

I don't see how we can make this any clearer!

Regards

 

[jgredline]

Having fun with the Imagican pinata?



Regards

Joe you had me on the floor with that one... :