Why belief in Jesus' deity is essential for salvation...

[AVBunyan]

Your question is EASILY offered with EVIDENCE that is UNREFUTABLE except by those that INSIST upon following MEN rather than God and His Son through The Spirit. Here we go;

Again - I do not follow men except when I believe they follow the book.

The Puritans I mentioned were no fools and their fruits bear witness to the fact that they deserve to be listened to.

Have you read much of the Puritans, Mec? Have you read the works of, Thomas Boston, Thomas Watson, John Newton, John Bunyan, John Owen, Charnock, Jonathan Edwards, Richard Baxter, Brooks, Flave, Bridge, Rutherford, etc.? There is no one today that has produced the quality and volume of works these men produced. Yes, they were mere men and not infallible but their works bore fruit and they did not doubt the deity of Christ.

Mec, who persuaded you to believe that Christ is not God? You came to this totally on your own?

GOd bless

 

[MarkT]

Good job brother.

Christ is OUR LORD as God IS HIS. Christ is the HEAD of The Church as God IS the HEAD of Christ. And God IS The Father of ALL. For EVERYTHING, (pertaining to this physical universe in which we exist), was created by God through Christ. Christ was 'created' FOR God as WE were 'created' FOR Christ, as WOMAN was 'created' FOR Man.

Funny how this can be misconstrued through 'man-made' doctrine. How HARD it can 'become' to 'see' the TRUTH when one accepts the 'teachings of men' rather than that taught by God through His Son.

Well, it's God's will Imagican. Stumbling blocks are there for a reason. They catch those they are supposed to catch. Yeah. It's a funny feeling that no one recognizes us. At first, a long time ago, I thought it was strange and then incredible. But then I thought maybe I should gather the elect; first to find them and then to greet them. So I greet you.

I know, I know, Christ couldn't POSSIBLY have been 'created'. Yet there is evidence PLENTY to support a 'created' Christ and I am NOT adverse to 'acceptance' of what has been offered in leu of a 'man-made' doctrine that won't allow for this understanding.

Well, as far as the attempt to understand, I can't fault men for trying. I can fault men for not trying. I don't fault them for the Trinity concept but then since it became the doctrine of the church, I think men just took it for granted and fell backwards. The words of God didn't matter anymore or so they would think. When they began to build on the doctrine, the words of God fell on deaf ears. But now they have no excuse. Isaiah wrote that, "In that day the deaf shall hear the words of a book, and out of their gloom and darkness the eyes of the blind shall see." It's been a long time in coming but now we are in that day.

And Mark, I commend you, my brother. No, I am NOT simply 'patting you one the back' for our similarities in understanding. I am offering that I AM able to recognize The Spirit that dwells within you and hope that the light that you attept to spread IS able to shine 'brightly' in the lives of those that have been living in darkness.

For as we have been warned, the words of God's wisdom are NOTHING but 'foolishness' to the world. And the LOVE of God DOES indeed shine brightly in those that 'share His Love'.

May God Bless you, my brother. You and yours.

Recognizing the Spirit is the important thing. May the words of God water you and God give you growth. May your leaves remain green in the year of the drought and may you continue to bear fruit.

 

[Imagican]

No Av, it is PLAINLY revealed through scripture and The Spirit WHO Christ IS. I am NOTHING on 'my own. For to interpret scripture 'on my own' would offer NOTHING 'different' than what men have been doing for thousands and thousands of years.

God WAS 'manifest' in 'the flesh' THROUGH His Son, Jesus Christ. We have PLAIN and SIMPLE scripture that Christ HIMSELF offers that He did NOT come to DO HIS WILL but that of The Father. That the WORDS that He offered were NOT His OWN but GIVEN Him BY The Father. He ALSO PLAINLY stated that He would RETURN to The Father. And we KNOW that The Father IS God.

j,

That you could even ASK such a question is pure indication that you 'believe' that this could EVEN BE possible. That's a 'good START' towards 'understanding'. For to ACCEPT that it IS possible for ANYONE to simply 'play the game' is a pretty good 'STEP' in the direction of an understanding that this is EXACTLY what MOST have 'chosen' to DO rather than TRULY submit themselves to God.

I have pointed out how there ARE those that would COMPLETELY manipulate scripture for the sake of their OWN itching ears. Those that would 'choose' to follow MEN rather than God.

No Av, I have LITTLE time to read the offereings of men other than those offered through the Holy Bible. EVERYTHING that one READS or experiences IS able to ALTER their perceptions and understanding. For this cause I AVOID commentary of Matthew Henry or ANY such OPINIONATED writtings.

I KNOW God and TRUST Him to lead in the direction that HE CHOOSES, NOT myself. For if I simply 'choose' to follow my OWN understanding, I would deceive myself into believing what PLEASED my FLESH rather than allowing a strenthening of my spirit.

There is NOT ONE righteous my brothers, NO, not ONE. I seek NOT to BE righteous, BUT a deeper understanding of God and His Son through The Spirit. For HOW could one even BEGIN to strive towards righteousness WITHOUT The Truth?

Take your 'sticks' and 'bang away' at this figure that you OBVIOUSLY hold in contempt. For the REASON for this contempt is layed open and revealed as PLAINLY as the doctrines that you follow. Your contempt only offers strength to those that recognize it for WHERE it 'comes' from.

I do NOT attempt to 'belittle ANYONE'. NOR will I 'humor you' for the sake of communion. I simply ATTEMPT to offer The Truth as it has been revealed. And there is NO NEED for ANYTHING other than FAITH in The Father and His Son. For IF one 'accepts' THIS and is OBEDIENT to The Father in LOVE, WHATEVER He chooses to reveal WILL BE revealed. Those that 'choose' to follow 'men' will be doomed to the fate of 'men'.

Your 'churches' would teach that it is THEY that you MUST follow in order to 'even have a CHANCE' to recieve what God has to offer. FLEE those that would offer such BONDAGE. Trust in GOD and leave men to the world in which they have chosen to abide. Have FAITH that God IS able to offer that which He has PROMISED and learn to love your brothers and sisters AS YOURSELF. For THIS is what we have been COMMANDED to DO.

But FIRST one MUST come to an UNDERSTANDING of 'this love'. For without THIS understanding, it is IMPOSSIBLE for one to come to an UNDERSTANDING of God and His Son.

MEC

 

[Solo]

AV,

My signature contains the Scripture that says it all! Those who cannot say that Jesus Christ is the LORD JEHOVAH GOD come in the flesh do not have the HOLY SPIRIT.

John, inspired of God, tells us that those who deny that JESUS CHRIST is JEHOVAH GOD come in the flesh have the spirit of antichrist.

• And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 1 John 4:3
  
  For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. 2 John 1:7

Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians that those that are not born again of God remain in the flesh and cannot see the spiritual things of God as they are foolishness to them.

• 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians 2:13-14

May God give these unbelievers HIS Salvation so that they can have HIS understanding and wisdom for those that they teach.

Michael

 

[AVBunyan]

No Av, I have LITTLE time to read the offerings of men other than those offered through the Holy Bible.

What a statement :o - Very foolish statement - a very revealing statement.

Are you saying you only read the Bible?
Are you saying the works of these and other men are of little value?

Those men read the works of other men. They didn't think like you and they did more for God in one year than you and I ever will in a lifetime!

The greatest pastors read the works of other men.

Mec - I have seen the fruits of your statement in the fact that you deny one of the most important (and possibly the most important) truths in scripture.

You pride yourself in not reading the "offerings of men"? Then You are insinuating you are above the rest of us.

Do you sit under a local pastor? If you do then why do you based upon your declaration?

Satan can take a King James Bible or any other version and lead one down a road to hell.

 

[Imagican]

No Av, As I stated, I 'sit under NO MAN', Pastor or otherwise.

I have spoken to 'your pastors'. I have YET to meet ONE that is ANYTHING other than 'slef-serving'. I have discussed doctrinal issues with them and they are STUCK in what THEY were TAUGHT by OTHER MEN. Unable to come to an 'understanding for the sake of 'doctrine'.

I asked you earlier concerning your having 'read' The Word. i asked IF you have READ the WARNINGS offered by Christ and His Apostles concerining THOSE that WOULD come and 'alter' The Word into 'some OTHER doctrine' than that offered by Christ and His apostles. I 'assume' that you HAVE read The Word. AKJV in fact.

These words of warning were offered TWO THOUSAND YEARS AGO. And IN THESE words were WARNINGS that what they were CONCERNED WOULD happen, had ALREADY BEGUN.

And Av, I have YET to read ANYTHING of ANY consequence offered by those that offer their 'works' FOR SALE. For IF these that you commend so readily had ANYTHING of IMPORT to offer, it would have been offered FREELY and to ANYONE that wished to read them. Yes, there are 'free' works availible, but MOST of ANYONE of renown ONLY offer their 'views' at a COST; both monitarily and spiritual.

There is NO 'gray area' in The Word. Either on ACCEPTS it for WHAT it offers or they are WAISTING their TIME reading it. For to ALTER it's contents in ANY WAY is to suffer the consequences in their attepts to attain something that CANNOT EVEN BE UNDERSTOOD without acceptance and faith. And I DON'T mean acceptance and faith in MEN.

Itching ears will ALWAYS be ABLE to 'find' what it IS that they 'long for'. And when you see churches with 'congregations' of THOUSANDS; beware. It's NOT ONLY the numbers themselves, but it's a matter of WHAT the WORLD longs to HEAR. And MANY of the pastors of these are the ONES that have written the MOST popular books in Barns and Noble.

I am NOT able to convince ANYONE of ANYTHING that they REFUSE to 'hear'. I am NOT here to convince those that 'think' that they 'have it ALL figured out'. For these don't NEED 'anything'. They are perfectly content in 'their' understanding REGARDLESS of whether there is ANY merit contained in thier understanding WHATSOEVER.

You know Av, there are STILL people out 'looking for Bigfoot'? After the man that 'created' this hoax made his family PROMISE to divulge the 'truth' of his prank, there are STILL those that INSIST that Bigfoot EXISTS. Even AFTER the man that 'created it' ADMITTED that it was a 'prank'.

There are those that will INSIST that there is a 'loch Ness Monster'. A couple of BOGUS pictures and a 'good story' and there ARE those that will SWEAR that Nessy exists. Contrary to EVERY bit of practical evidence, these WANT to 'believe' in SOMETHING SO BAD that they will PICK what it IS that 'tickles their fancy'.

The 'religions' are NO DIFFERENT. Most that 'proclaim' Christianity would RATHER believe in 'fairy tales' and mythology than the TRUTH contained within the Word as REVEALED BY The Spirit.

The churches have 'blinded' MOST to anything even resembling the truth. Teaching 'watered down' doctrine that means NOTHING other than it's ability to offer apeasment of that which it's followers seek. Never able to come to an understanding of 'truth' for the sake of self. Worshiping the 'creature' ABOVE the Creator.

I am SIMPLY here to 'point this out'. I am WELL aware that the understanding that I offer is UNABLE to be grasped by but FEW. For the World follows IT'S own and there is LITTLE room for TRUTH in the desires of the FLESH.

I have been treated here little different than the prophets of the past were treated by those that "CLAIMED" to be Spiritual leaders. Shuned for the sake of what 'men' had taught them. Ignoring ANYTHING other than what they 'wanted to hear'. So be it.

I have been asked by close associates, 'Man, you should be a Pastor. Why don't you 'start a church'. And the ONLY answer that I can give to this is; 'Are you KIDDING? There aren't ONE out of FIVE MILLION that exist on this planet that have ANY desire WHATSOEVER in hearing the TRUTH. For the TRUTH will NOT set those Free that REFUSE to 'heed it'. In FACT, the TRUTH can do NOTHING but CONDEMN them that are LOST.

No, I have no 'warm fuzzy' words to offer in order to 'gain the favor' of men. I am simply DOING what I have been 'LED' to do and can do NO MORE or NO less. If my words offend i would suggest an abandonement of that which is carnal and striving towards that which is Spiritual. And i DON'T mean 'spiritual'. For there ARE 'spirits MANY' and MOST will not even admit that these words offered mean ANYTHING other than 'ghost stories'. For we battle NOT with each other, but principalities and powers that most are UNAWARE OF. EVEN in the 'highest' places. Leaders. Political and spiritual. For Satan will NOT manifest himself in the flesh until the WORLD is under HIS submission. Gettin' CLOSE my friend, gettin' REAL CLOSE.

So you see Av, I couldn't care LESS about those that would attempt to 'lead me'. They are ONLY able to do so when I 'submit' myself to THEM. I chose a 'higher power'. A loving and caring God that the churches have abondoned for 'something DIFFERENT'.

And, that there are SO MANY that have NO clue as to the 'things I speak' only goes to SHOW CLEARLY that the WORLD has achieved what we were WARNED that it WOULD. The father of lies has managed to USURP the TRUTH from ALL but a remnant. And it's just a 'matter of time' until even those will be SO HATED by the likes of 'Christians' that these too will be 'cut down' to an even LESSER number. Eventually ALL BUT COMPLETELY distroyed if God had NOT chosen to shorten the days.

And I KNOW this; I could come on here and 'talk' the 'game of most' and we would all be 'good buddies'. That is NOT what I desire. I have LITTLE desire for 'good buddies' at the expense of the TRUTH.

I DO NOT wish to be an enemy either. But IF one 'chooses' to BE my enemy, that surely speaks volumes as to The Spirit that they follow.

MEC

 

[Solo]

In MEC's previous post there are 32 instances of his using the word "I" out of 1091 words, and no instances of his using Scripture. That speaks volumes of whose spirit he follows.

That is the typical MEC post. Save yourself some time and know that there is nothing substantial in his diatribes against those who hold onto the gospel of the LORD Jesus Christ, although it is a good post to discover that he does not serve Almighty God.

 

[AVBunyan]

1. No Av, As I stated, I 'sit under NO MAN', Pastor or otherwise.

2. I have spoken to 'your pastors'. I have YET to meet ONE that is ANYTHING other than 'slef-serving'. I challenge you to read a good biography of Jonathan Edwards or David Brainerd and see if you can still feel as though these men and others have nothing to offer.

3. I have been asked by close associates, 'Man, you should be a Pastor. Why don't you 'start a church'

1. Then have you arrived? Do you stand alone? God blesses the local church - God works through the local church - If one violates this then the person becomes unusable in God's eyes.

2. Mec, you live in a small world. You have not met many good pastors then or you are not very discerning - I question the crowd you run with. By ignoring the great men of faith of the era between 1600 - 1850 you have shut off the greatest, most holy, humble, learned,and zealous men for God this world has seen - And you stand here spouting out judging these men (whom it appears you know nothing about) as though your spiritual knowledge and life is above their spiritual knowledge and lives.

3. You are kidding right? :o Your associates are spiritually lacking. The scriptures are about Christ and you can't even get that right!!! :o So why would God use you to lead others?

No - Mec - go back and see the pride in your discourse on this matter. To say you do not need other learned men to learn under is the height of spiritual pride and ignorance. You seem to be a nice fella Mec - but your foundation is off. To deny the deity of Christ is a fundamental time bomb just waiting to go off.

 

[MarkT]

I couldn't disagree with you more.

That would make Luke an unfaithful servant for recording as he did:
"Return home and tell how much God has done for you." So the man went away and told all over town how much Jesus had done for him. Luke 8:39

Jesus said it so Luke was being faithful. Jesus gave glory to God for the works he accomplished.

It would also mean Matthew was unfaithful:
"The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel" â€â€which means, "God with us." Matthew 1:23

Matthew was faithful to what God said by the prophet Isaiah Isa. 7:14

...and Thomas:
Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!" John 20:28

Thomas called him my Lord and God and I call him my Lord and God. God called him God. God made him God. Jesus ascended to the throne of God and then he appeared to the disciples. No one is saying Jesus isn't God. What we're saying is that the Father is his God.

...and Paul:
God was manifested in the flesh. 1Timothy3:16

He also said, "For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ." 1 Timothy 2:5

'He was manifested in the flesh' RSV The footnotes, 'Who'; other ancient authorities read 'God'; others 'Which'.

Jesus manifested the 'LORD'. That's probably what Paul is saying. Jesus said, "I have manifested thy name" John 17:6

These are just off the top of my head, there are more that present Jesus as God in Scripture. Read them plainly please. I still disagree with how you read Titus. You're explainations are very complicated and I do not believe that Scripture is meant to be so complicated. Children can "get it".

Are you looking for meaning or definitions? My explanations are not the best, I agree. I hope they get better over time.

Do what you can with your 'reason' and when Scripture logically leads you to a conclusion that your mind can't quite grasp, fine, accept that. Dont try to claim that all can be explained away and then go on to be illogical with your arguements.

Look at how you have interpreted a verse where Jesus says plainly that He is "LORD", or that He is "I AM". You've read that, accepted that, and still go on to deny that He is God. You're not working plainly and logically from the text. "LORD" is the same thing as "I AM who I AM". God gave his name as "I AM" in exodus as well as "I AM who I AM".

Well, if you want to be faithful to the words of God, then God said, "I AM WHO I AM". God was not revealing his name to Moses. He was telling Moses who he is. You just assume that 'LORD' is the same thing as 'I AM WHO I AM'. But we know that 'I AM WHO I AM' is the Lord God Almighty, the first and the last, the Alpha and the Omega, the one who is and who was and who is to come. Then God said, "say this to the people of Israel, 'I AM has sent me to you'" So 'I AM' would be the Son and 'I AM WHO I AM" would be the Father. I think 'I AM' refers to the first and the last, the Amen, the Son of God, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation'. Rev. 3 14 The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all the saints. Amen Rev. 22:21

On a side note, and speaking personally for myself, Jesus is my God, and I'm looking forward to embracing my God. I'll probably be weeping with joy at His feet. I will reach out and touch his hand, look into to His eyes, listen, talk...smile - and be filled with peace that I can relate to God in this way.

Well good. But don't forget he comes from our Father and he is in our Father as we are in him. If you love him, you love our Father because he comes from our Father.

I don't know if you will agree with this but I would say the Lord Jesus is the Right Hand of the Father. It makes sense because he sits at his right hand.

 

[AVBunyan]

I have spoken to 'your pastors'. I have YET to meet ONE that is ANYTHING other than 'self-serving'.

I feel this needs commenting on some more.

My preacher is 65 years old - no social security or insurance - lives in an old trailer - has a library of over 20,00 books which he has read - studies at least 8-10 hours a day - pastors a church of 35 and takes home $75 a week when it is there - we take care of his lot, food, electricity, etc.

There are many out there just like him and then I read your statement..."I have YET to meet ONE that is ANYTHING other than 'self-serving'" - You had better thank the Lord for his long suffering and patience.

You had better consider more carefully before you make such bold statements.

 

[AVBunyan]

In MEC's previous post there are 21 instances of his using the word "I" out of 671 words, and no instances of his using Scripture. That speaks volumes of whose spirit he follows.

Interesting observation Solo - especially coming from one who says he only goes by scripture and doesn't follow or listen to other men or pastors of today or yesteryear.

I will touch upon this more when time permits.

 

[jgredline]

I find it interesting that one would claim to read and study only the bible and forget about what all the great theologians and in particular the reformers....have said and taught...All those wonderful books....I for one have pretty good library...Not 20,000 books, but a pretty good collection...

Ok, lets take a look at some scripture....Not that it matters to some, but lets see what the Apostle tells us...

Lest I be accused of taking scripture out of context, I will place the thought of the Apostle and focus on 14-17 In the 10th chapter of Romans...

Romans...10 5-18
5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, "The man who does those things shall live by them." 6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, "Do not say in your heart, Who will ascend into heaven?" (that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7 or, " Who will descend into the abyss? " (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."

14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:

"How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,

Who bring glad tidings of good things!"

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?" 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

18 But I say, have they not heard? Yes indeed:

"Their sound has gone out to all the earth,

And their words to the ends of the world."

After preaching and teaching about the Gospel message of Jesus Christ and Salvation by Grace, Paul then goes to his classic style of teaching by asking a series of Rhetorical questions....each question is a result the key verb from the preceding question. God’s promise of salvation to “everyone who calls†on Him begins the process.

How, then, can they call on the One they have not believed in? Previously, to call on the Lord was equated with trusting Him or believing in Him, but here it follows the believing......

When one believes in Christ, he calls on Him..... Believing, in turn, is based on hearing, and hearing is based on someone preaching..........and how can they preach unless they are sent?.......

Carrying God’s gracious offer involves human beings whom God has brought to Himself and then uses as His tools......

They share God’s message of salvation because He will save everyone who calls on His name.

So when one says, he does not listen to ''man'' then one must ask....Who is he listening to if it is not God?..............

 

[Imagican]

Solo,

I have warned others and I guess now it's your turn.

Beware brother, HOW you 'choose' to JUDGE others. For AS you CHOOSE to 'judge THEM', SO TOO will YOU be JUDGED.

You have, over and over now, implied that it is YOUR 'belief' that I could NOT POSSIBLY 'be saved' for having DIFFERENT understanding than YOU. Not ONLY indicated such but OUTRIGHT accused me of being led by 'the spirit of 'anti-christ'. You seem to have taken it upon YOURSELF to offer judgement of my soul. Shame shame, my brother for this IS NOT of The Spirit. Your behavior betrays you, my friend. I guess NEXT you'll be CRYING for 'my head to be chopped off'? Labeling me an heretic worthy of 'burning at the stake'? Do you HONESTLY even THINK that you ARE able to discern such things? And EVEN IF you were given such power, do you HONESTLY believe that this is the WAY in which God OR His Son would have you wield it? And it is YOU that accuse ME of a 'lack of understanding'. Can't even get the basics straight and 'believe' that you have come upon the 'finer details'. Shame shame my brother. See how EASY it can BE to deceive oneself?


But you know what Solo, FORTUNATELY for ME and others, it is NOT 'up to YOU' who is and who is NOT 'saved'. Are you SURE that you do NOT follow The CC? For THEY are the ONES that 'believe' that THEY have the POWER to 'decide' who WILL and who WON'T be 'saved'. I have YET to meet a Baptist that would OPENLY state such, (even tho MOST seem to 'think' in this VERY WAY).

So, BEWARE my brother. And OH, I can't believe I missed it before but let me point out ANOTHER of YOUR misinterpretations, for I DO BELIEVE that it was YOU who offered this;

Those that believe that Jesus Christ is something other than God come in the flesh still have not explained this Scripture:

7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. 8 I [Jesus] am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. Revelation 1:7-8

You offer that this STATES that Jesus IS God for the USE of Alpha and Omega. You have NOTHING to base this on but YOUR OWN interpretation. To SHOW what I mean; Solo, BEGINNING and ENDING of What?

I'll GIVE you a 'hint'. IF you will read the REST of the LINE of scripture, it is APPARENT what is being referred to. And NOT to ANY CLAIM of being God. Simply MAKING a statement of faith concerning Himself. Telling John WHO He was. IF you are ABLE to couple this understanding with WHO Christ was PREVIOUS to the flesh, ONLY then is it possible to UNDERSTAND the relationship with the Son to the Father.

I noticed that you LEFT out the MOST important part of this chapter that OFFERS understanding of WHAT IT IS that you SEEM to be MISSING. And this can ONLY be so if ONE CHOOSES to refute The Word AS OFFERED;

1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

2Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

Now, I believe that it is APPARENT how deceptive YOUR offering is. You PURPOSELY omitted THIS which EXPLAINS PLAINLY that Christ IS NOT GOD. For it PLAINLY states that the Revelation, (information concerning a FUTURE event), WAS GIVEN Jesus BY GOD. And John bare record of THE WORD OF GOD. And the testimony of Jesus Christ. Now IF Christ WERE GOD, then the Word of God and the testimony of Christ would BE the SAME THING. One would NOT state 'the Word of God AND the testimony of Jesus Christ for IF Christ WERE God then these TWO would BE identical.

I don't believe that to those that 'understand' I need even offer opinion as to WHY you CHOSE to leave out this part of the SAME chapter.

 

[Imagican]

j,

I have NOT 'chosen' to FORGET ANYTHING. I simply stated that I do NOT cloud the 'understanding offered by God' with that offered by 'man'.

Anyone can WRITE anything. This forum itself PROVES that.

Let ME ask YOU this; are ALL materials written concerning God The TRUTH. Now, HOW do you discern that which is TRUTH from that which is FALSE? IF I am ABLE to discern, then I need NOT chance being 'deceived' by a 'man'.

The Word is ENOUGH for ME. I find it a 'lifelong' challenge to understand what is written HERE. I need NOT cloud my understanding with that of 'others' who I KNOW NOTHING about.

If I 'wanted' to read a 'good story', there is PLENTY of 'fiction' out there that I KNOW IS FICTION from the VERY first WORD.

IF one TRUSTS in God, there is LITTLE need for the 'thoughts' of others. Yes, for those TRULY in the Body, God offers revelation or prophecy by ANYONE that He chooses. But one must BEWARE of WHAT the Body ACTUALLY IS and WHO IS a 'part of it'. EVERYONE 'claiming to BE' is NOT a 'part of' The Body of Christ.

This is quite clear through the Words of Christ Himself. The religious order of His time had the SAME mentality that we observe TODAY, (maybe EVEN WORSE TODAY). Believing THEMSELVES to BE ABLE to 'make up' their OWN understanding in the PLACE of that which IS Holy. Believing their OWN teachings to BE HOLY. Teaching others to 'follow THEM' rather than God.

I have NO doubt that there HAVE been 'some' writers who have TRULY captured relevant 'understanding' in their words. BUT, for the sake of discernment and TIME, I find that EVERYTHING that one 'chooses' to expose themselves to HAS an EFFECT on their understanding. I choose NOT to take the chance that one that 'sounds' good will be ABLE to affect me in a NEGATIVE understanding.

I stated PREVIOUS; I OWN Matthew Henry's Commentary and MANY MANY MANY other such books. Speaking of libraries; I have YET to meet ANYONE with any MORE books that I own. Not bragging, just making a statement concerning BOOKS.

When I first tasted of the Holy Spirit I started reading EVERYTHING that I could get my hands on that even REMOTELY indicated that it dealt with issues of Christianity. I SOON found that 'beliefs' are like b..........books. Everybody's got some. But the IMPORTANT thing to ME concerning God IS TRUTH. Not someone's OPINION, BUT TRUTH. THAT, my friend, is ALL I am concerned with. For there is NOTHING that I am capable of following that MATTERS until I FIRST come to the TRUTH. (Oh, and I STILL own ALL the books that I referred to. I have a 'certain' aversion to letting go of ANY written medium REGARDLESS of it's content. It's an 'information thing' I guess).

So THAT is PROBABLY WHY I am able to relate to FEW; here OR in any other gathering. For there are MANY that simply choose to follow WHATEVER 'truth' SOUNDS GOOD. Yet I have FOUND there to BE 'only ONE truth'. And that can ONLY be found in God and His Son through The Spirit.

Read WHAT you will, there is LITTLE that is ABLE to be understood Spiritually that can be OFFERED by 'men'. If a 'man' IS ABLE to explain something to you that YOU DO understand, BEWARE. For the FLESH DOES SEEK itself in understanding. But Spirit can ONLY be understood THROUGH Spirit and I have found that Spirit does NOT LIVE ON PAPER.

You 'good folks' seem to WANT to twist my words in ANY WAY that you see fit in order to 'try' and 'water them down' into NOTHING. So be it. But if would suit EACH of you well to actually 'try' and understand them rather than belittle them.

I did NOT say that YOU should NOT read books written by theologians. I simply stated that I DO NOT. I also stated that The Holy Bible IS ENOUGH. For what God will reveal WILL be revealed WITH OR WITHOUT writings. If He chooses for one to read the writings of another and offer understanding of said writings, then He IS able to DO SO. But I KNOW that this is NOT NEEDED. That the 'Written Word' IS ENOUGH. Enough to 'keep one busy READING for their ENTIRE LIFE' and NEVER understand EVERY truth REVEALED.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Solo]

Solo,

I have warned others and I guess now it's your turn.

Beware brother, HOW you 'choose' to JUDGE others. For AS you CHOOSE to 'judge THEM', SO TOO will YOU be JUDGED.

MEC,
First of all you are not a brother in Christ Jesus, therefore, I am not your brother. Your position has revealed your position outside of the body of Christ Jesus because of your rejection of the LORDSHIP of JESUS CHRIST as revealed in the Scriptures. God has given believers the indwelling of the HOLY SPIRIT to discern the spiritual things that can only be discerned spiritually. Those who have the HOLY SPIRIT judge ALL things, and it is apparant that you have no idea what the Scripture teaches.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. 1 Corinthians 2:14-16

In this current post of MEC there are 14 instances of his using the word "I" out of 661 words, and 1 partial instance of his using Scripture originally presented by me. This speaks volumes of whose spirit MEC follows.

This is the typical MEC post. Save yourself some time and know that there is nothing substantial in his diatribes against those who hold onto the gospel of the LORD Jesus Christ, although it is a good post to discover that he does not serve Almighty God.

 

[Imagican]

Solo,

Your childish attempts at antagonizing others suits YOU well. If you can't get them to accept what YOU have to offer, simply attempt to discredit them or insult them in the hopes that anger is able to be elicited. You are able to do NEITHER so far as ""I"" am concerned.

'I' am UNABLE to 'speak' for others, (as you would have it for yourself), so 'I' am left to use what 'I' have experienced and understand. 'I' certainly DON'T use the word 'we' too much for there is obviously little that we have in common as far as wisdom OR understanding is concerned.

You continually attempt to misuse scripture for YOUR OWN MEANS. Usually having little or absolutely NOTHING to do with Truth OR wisdom. Taking them COMPLETELY out of context to 'try' and have them SAY what you 'wish' for them to say. So be it.

I have attempted to offer 'truth' and you insist on it's denial. That's NOT something that really affects anything other than your OWN understanding, or lack of it.

There IS only ONE God. This was KNOWN by God's OWN chosen People. Those who's lineage Christ was 'born in to'. That they failed to recognize the Son of God just goes to show that these KNEW the Father but didn't recognize the Son.

Your insistence that one MUST accept what YOU 'believe' simply shows that you really don't understand the BASICS of the example that was offered through Christ Jesus. And being unable to come to an understanding of the basics, you are certainly unable to dig any deeper than the 'superficial' theology of those in need of MILK rather than meat. Not surprising. For MOST of those 'claiming' to BE Christians have little desire for understanding of ANYTHING other than the rudiments of this world.

I offered you warning NOT for MY sake, but your own. You will find FEW that hold ANY wisdom that will 'attempt' what you so 'freely' exhibit. For ANY with the LEAST BIT of wisdom are WELL aware of what you attempt to DO and ONLY those that DON'T understand will even HINT at what you so willingly 'fall in to'.

But we can do little other than reveal our hearts to those that we communicate to. IF one's heart is 'dark' and their understanding SO; NEEDING to BE reinforced, attacking others is CERTAINLY one way to appease such carnal desire. But you have been given 'fair' warning. I am UNABLE to threaten you, (nor would I if I could), but I warn you for the sake of YOURSELF.

You would take ONE LINE OF SCRIPTURE that 'seems' to mean something pertinent to YOU and IGNORE everything else in FAVOR of your 'emotions'. ABANDON ANY understanding for the 'sake' of self and then PROCLAIM an understanding of God or His Son.

Christ PLAINLY stated that EVERY MAN is your 'BROTHER'. Yet, because of your conceit, you are unable to discern even the basics of what Christ offered in example. And YOU, with this type of behavior, TRULY BELIEVE that you are ABLE to judge the hearts of others? Look in the mirror my brother. For YOU have already 'judged YOURSELF'.

I will LET you continue to wallow in your own confusion. Since that is what you 'seem' to WANT more than discussion of ANYTHING of relevance. I WILL pray for YOU however, in the HOPES that IF you TRULY seek understanding the Spirit will offer conviction. If not, then I don't know what else that I am able to offer.

I have NOT offered ANYTHING with the INTENT of causing dissention OTHER than in those that are void of understanding. For these I am UNABLE to offer condolence or agreement. Simply words of wisdom that may or may not be acceptable. That is TRULY up to The Spirit that resides in one's OWN heart.

So, count my I's and let me know how many I used in this useless diatribe, (neat word. I like it). I will EAGERLY be awaiting the details of my post.

Blessings, my brother,

MEC

 

[Solo]

MEC,
When you get over your "I" problem and start focusing on the LORDSHIP OF THE LORD JEHOVAH GOD COME IN THE FLESH, JESUS CHRIST, you will begin the journey into the Kingdom of God, and that journey begins with repentence of the "I" theology, and acceptance of the TRUTH of the WORD OF GOD. Until then you are just wasting good air.

Once again there are 21 uses of the word "I" out of 682 words, and no Scripture in your most recent ungodly diatribe. Par for the course!

PS We are not brothers until you repent and believe on the name of Jesus. I will know when you become born again, born of God for you will have the HOLY SPIRIT indwelling within you, and you will be able to proclaim that JESUS CHRIST IS JEHOVAH GOD INCARNATE.

...and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord [JEHOVAH GOD], but by the Holy Ghost. 1 Corinthians 12:3

 

[AVBunyan]

1. Av, I Have NOT met 'your pastor' who lives on 75.00 a week. I have NOT met ANY pastor that lives any such way.

2. What I HAVE observed are pastors who drive Lexus', take two weeks off a year to sammon fish in Alaska. Pastors who spend MORE than 75.00 a month on 'their HAIR'. Pastors that live in NICER homes than the MAJORITY of their congregation and STILL spend two hours a month BEGGING for MORE.

3. Perhaps I live in the WRONG town to meet these that are as humble and meager as yours.

4. Do you HONESTLY believe that your pastor has read 20,000 books written IN TRUTH?

5. You judge ME by what 'you' have experienced? Are you ACCUSING me of bearing 'false witness'?

6. And Av, are you even SUGGESTING that the Bible IS NOT ENOUGH? That one needs MORE than The Word and The Spirit?

7. What a 'funky god' that would be that left it up to a bunch of 'other sinners' to 'save' sinners.

I don’t like long posts but I feel below needs to be said:

1. Again, you live in a small world and this also shows you know little of true church history for church history is full of men such as my pastor. You need to expand your reading.

2. Yes, Christianity is full of this – but do not assume all are like this – bad mistake. This is still no excuse for avoiding or disdaining the local church – God works through the local church.

3. See #1

4. My pastor has read more than that – Are all those books without error? Of course not – my pastor understands this – He knows how to seek for truth and then “spit out the bonesâ€Â. My pastor will read anybody searching for truth but he has a King James Bible which is his final authority.

5. No – I’m accusing you of throwing out false statements that all pastors are “self-serving†- You think you know all these pastors and can judge them – You had better refrain from such statements since you cannot prove this statement – Because there are some bad apples does not mean all are bad – Who are you to judge these men anyway? What are your fruits? What have you written besides forum posts?

6. Now – let’s throw the anchor out! For one who professes to know the scriptures this statement shows you do not know as much as you think. Yes, the scriptures and the Spirit are the keys but God has means by which he accomplishes in order for folks to get understanding.
a. God uses men to expound the scriptures and the Spirit to make them real to the saved hearer –
Acts 8:31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me?
Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
1 Cor 4:17 For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.
1 Tim 1:3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,
1 Tim 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
1 Tim 4:11 These things command and teach.
2 Tim 2:2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

When the Puritan or other saved writers sat down to write books they were expounding the scriptures. Many books by the Puritans and others are but collection of sermons. Scriptural sermons are exposition of scripture. Man a great man attributes what he knows to men before him who wrote great expositions of the scriptures.

What you appear to be saying is you do not need anybody telling you nothing – that you don’t need others – that you are above these men – that you have arrived where you can stand alone! These holy men needed and learned from others yet you say you do not need to! Foolish thinking – prideful thinking!

Funny how you say you do not need to listen to men yet you expect us and others to listen to you “expound the scripturesâ€Â!!!!

b. God uses the local church –
Mec – you appear to be against the local church yet most of Paul’s epistles are written to local churches. The word churches shows up 37 times in NT – the word church shows up over 50 times. God is interested in local churches – you are not lined up with God.

Bottom line – I’ve seen the fruits of your thinking that one only need the scriptures and the Spirit – the devil has led you way from a foundational doctrine. Stay on you current “stand aloneÀ path and God will cast you aside like and old shoe – if he hasn’t already.

Finally – if you are anti-local church I am against you and so is the Lord.

Mec - you have a sharp mind but if you stay on the present path God will not use you but the devil will be glad to.

 

[Solo]

Solo

You know that by inserting words into another person's testimony, you are committing fraud! '[JEHOVAH GOD]' is not in Paul's testimony!

'...and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord [JEHOVAH GOD], but by the Holy Ghost. 1 Corinthians 12:3', is misrepresenting what Paul said.

By your own words, you are a fraud! "My signature contains the scripture that says it all!!"



It is your signature! It says, 'I am a fraud'.

Thus the sons of the evil one reveal themselves.

The following is for the believers on this forum and those that are becoming saved as the angels minister to them:

The Hebrew word יהוה transliterated JEHOVAH is translated LORD, GOD, and JEHOVAH in the English Old Testament and is translated κυριος and θεος in the Greek Septuagint Old Testament. The Greek word κυριος is translated as LORD in the English New Testament.

The Hebrew word יהוה transliterated JEHOVAH is found in the Old Testament of the King James Version Bible and is translated LORD 6510 times, GOD 4 times, and JEHOVAH 4 times.

The Hebrew word אדני transliterated ADONAI is translated Lord 431 times, lord 2 times, and God 1 time. The Hebrew word אדני transliterated ELOHIM is translated God 2346 times where used in reference to JEHOVAH.

Whenever the word LORD is found in the King James Version Old Testament, it is the word יהוה transliterated JEHOVAH. As stated, this occurs 6518 times in the KJV Old Testament.

Once a person understands the usage of the name of the LORD JEHOVAH GOD, one can read the Old Testament with an understanding of who the prophets are prophsying about, and who created the creation, etc. etc.

The Septuagint offers the LORD JEHOVAH GOD in the Greek as follows:

And the LORD God (κυριος ο θεος - LORD GOD)(יהוה אלהים - JEHOVAH ELOHIM) planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. Genesis 2:8

And the LORD God (κυριος ο θεος - LORD GOD)(יהוה אלהים - JEHOVAH ELOHIM) took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. Genesis 2:15

Now we will investigate two sections of Scripture that speak of the LORD JEHOVAH GOD in reference the LORD JESUS CHRIST from the prophets.

First, let us examine Zechariah's prophesy recorded in Zechariah 14. In this section of Scripture, I will include the Hebrew, Greek, and English translation for the words referencing the LORD JEHOVAH GOD.

• 
  1 Behold, the day of the LORD (Hebrew יהוה = JEHOVAH) (Septuagint Greek κυριος = LORD) cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then shall the LORD (Hebrew יהוה = JEHOVAH) (Septuagint Greek κυριος = LORD) go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD (Hebrew יהוה = JEHOVAH) (Septuagint Greek κυριος = LORD) my God (Hebrew אלהים = ELOHIM) (Septuagint Greek θεος = GOD) shall come, and all the saints with thee. 6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: 7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD (Hebrew יהוה = JEHOVAH) (Septuagint Greek κυριος = LORD), not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. 8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. 9 And the LORD (Hebrew יהוה = JEHOVAH) (Septuagint Greek κυριος = LORD) shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD (Hebrew יהוה = JEHOVAH) (Septuagint Greek κυριος = LORD), and his name one. Zechariah 14:1-9
  
  Notice that the LORD JEHOVAH GOD is one LORD (vs 9), and this one LORD JEHOVAH GOD shall come with all of the saints with him (vs 5). Paul reveals that JESUS CHRIST is this ONE LORD JEHOVAH GOD COMING WITH ALL HIS SAINTS!!
  
  To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints. 1 Thessalonians 3:13

Next, let us look at Isaiah's prophesy concerning the voice that cried in the wilderness preparing the way for the LORD.

• 3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD (Hebrew יהוה = JEHOVAH) (Septuagint Greek κυριος = LORD), make straight in the desert a highway for our God (Hebrew אלהים = ELOHIM) (Septuagint Greek θεος = GOD). 4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain: 5 And the glory of the LORD (Hebrew יהוה = JEHOVAH) (Septuagint Greek κυριος = LORD), shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD (Hebrew יהוה = JEHOVAH) (Septuagint Greek κυριος = LORD), hath spoken it. Isaiah 40:3
  
  Notice that the prophesy of the voice that is crieth in the wilderness was fulfilled by John the Baptist as recorded in the gospels. John the Baptist was the one crying in the wilderness preparing the way for the LORD JEHOVAH GOD as prophesied by Isaiah.
  
  1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, 2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. 3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord (Greek κυριος = LORD), make his paths straight. Matthew 3:1-3
  
  1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; 2 As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. 3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord (Greek κυριος = LORD), make his paths straight. Mark 1:1-3
  
  4 As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord (Greek κυριος = LORD), make his paths straight. 5 Every valley shall be filled, and every mountain and hill shall be brought low; and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough ways shall be made smooth; 6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God. Luke 3:4-6
  
  19 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou? 20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ. 21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No. 22 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself? 23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord (Greek κυριος = LORD), as said the prophet Esaias. John 1:19-23
  
  Once again, it is obvious that JESUS CHRIST is the LORD JEHOVAH GOD whom John the Baptist was preparing the way for as prophesied by Isaiah.

In conclusion, the Scriptures are clear as to the LORD JEHOVAH GOD IS JESUS CHRIST COME IN THE FLESH. Those who cannot confess that the JESUS CHRIST is the LORD JEHOVAH GOD come in the flesh are not of God, and are of the spirit of antichrist.

And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 1 John 4:3

For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. 2 John 1:7

 

[Solo]

It is your signature! It says, 'I am a fraud'.

Thus the sons of the evil one reveal themselves.

How true. My signature reveals that you are a fraud, and you admit it.

The Word of God reveals those who are the children of the devil. Children of the devil are not brothers to those who are Children of God.

6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. 1 John 3:6-10

23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us. 1 John 3:23-24

Those who do not have the HOLY SPIRIT dwelling within them cannot confess that JESUS CHRIST IS LORD JEHOVAH GOD.

Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord [JEHOVAH GOD], but by the Holy Ghost. 1 Corinthians 12:3