Why belief in Jesus' deity is essential for salvation...

[Gabbylittleangel]

? ? ? ? ? You are talking in circles now.

... or something

 

[Imagican]

Vic,

Brother, I respect your comments and offerings. I DO.

All I have 'tried' to offer is that there IS NO 'trinity' offered by God, Christ OR His apotles. EVERYONE that has participated in this debate KNOWS THIS yet continue to 'defend it'.

Now, PLEASE explain this for me so that a 'simple man' such as myself is ABLE to 'understand it';

1 Corinthians 3:23

23And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

This does NOT say that Christ IS God, BUT, Christ IS GOD'S. "AS'' we ARE Christ's, Christ IS GOD'S. That means that Christ is the HEAD of Christ. God IS Christ's FATHER. He is NOT God Himself. IT IS STATED PLAINLY over and over again throughout scripture.

Show me 'trinity' in statements such as the one offered ABOVE.

I'll be waiting.

MEC

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Vic,

Brother, I respect your comments and offerings. I DO.

All I have 'tried' to offer is that there IS NO 'trinity' offered by God, Christ OR His apotles. EVERYONE that has participated in this debate KNOWS THIS yet continue to 'defend it'.

Now, PLEASE explain this for me so that a 'simple man' such as myself is ABLE to 'understand it';

1 Corinthians 3:23

23And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

This does NOT say that Christ IS God, BUT, Christ IS GOD'S. "AS'' we ARE Christ's, Christ IS GOD'S. That means that Christ is the HEAD of Christ. God IS Christ's FATHER. He is NOT God Himself. IT IS STATED PLAINLY over and over again throughout scripture.

Show me 'trinity' in statements such as the one offered ABOVE.

I'll be waiting.

MEC

Personally MEC, I would give it up at this point. Just accept the fact that us Trinitarians seem to believe something different from what you belive. The only thing that you can do at this point is pray for us, and ask God to reveal truth to those who have somehow missed it.

In fact, let me offer an outline.


Father God,
You have watched this debate go on for page after page, and thread after thread. Some say that God the Father, Jesus Christ The Son, and the Holy Spirit are a Trinity. Three in one. Others say that The Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ are not God, but separate. The ideas contradict, and the one thing that we all seem to agree on is that both can not be true. We also disagree on how the belief on this matter effects the salvation of a person.
And so Lord, we bring this matter before you. We lay it down on the altar. We ask that you would search the hearts of all of those who have been involved in this discussion and correct any among us who believe any false doctrine, and that you would affirm those who hold fast to the truth.
Father, we pray this in the blessed name of Your Holy Son, Jesus Christ, we thank you for your answer to our prayers, the answer to our questions, and for the Holy Spirit that teaches your children.
Amen.

 

[Solo]

Vic,

Brother, I respect your comments and offerings. I DO.

All I have 'tried' to offer is that there IS NO 'trinity' offered by God, Christ OR His apotles. EVERYONE that has participated in this debate KNOWS THIS yet continue to 'defend it'.

Now, PLEASE explain this for me so that a 'simple man' such as myself is ABLE to 'understand it';

1 Corinthians 3:23

23And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

This does NOT say that Christ IS God, BUT, Christ IS GOD'S. "AS'' we ARE Christ's, Christ IS GOD'S. That means that Christ is the HEAD of Christ. God IS Christ's FATHER. He is NOT God Himself. IT IS STATED PLAINLY over and over again throughout scripture.

Show me 'trinity' in statements such as the one offered ABOVE.

I'll be waiting.

MEC

God's Word has warned us to beware of your teachings, and God has given us the truth.

8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him [CHRIST] dwelleth [RESIDES] all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. Colossians 2:8-9

 

[Imagican]

I notice that no one wants to BITE INTO the last one that I offered.

Quite the CONTRARY Solo. For it IS philosophy that introduced 'trinity' into Christianity. I speak NOT of philosophy but SIMPLE words and simple terms that ANYONE can UNDERSTAND COMPLETELY.

Vic,

Let me 'try' to explain it as SIMPLY as I can. There are TWO eternities. It's SIMPLE. One that pertains to man; hence ETERNITY for US is ONLY CONCERNED with OUR 'being'. This means from OUR 'creation' until the END OF TIME, is ONE ETERNITY. That IS forever as far as WE are concerned.

Then there's the ETERNITY of God. This is of NO beginning and NO end. Eternal WAS, IS and WILL BE. Eternal BEFORE the creation of man, and ETERNAL AFTER.

Let me put it AS simple as I CAN. If I were writing a book to a SPECIFIC people. And I used a 'general term' such as ALL people. This could be misinterpreted by one of 'another people' as pertaining to THEM when in 'truth', it ONLY pertained to THOSE THAT IT WAS WRITTEN TO. It would have NO bearing on 'other people'. Get it?

But HOW ABOUT IT;

1 Corinthians 3:23

23And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

Solo, Vic, gabby.

Please explain HOW this could BE IF Christ IS God. How Christ COULD BE God's, yet BE God. God's IS possessive NOT PLURAL. As I have offered OVER AND OVER; WE can BE ONE with Christ, AS Christ is ONE with God; AS a man and woman CAN BE ONE in marriage. But NOT A ONE OF THESE ONE'S is 'the 'same' entity.

Just offer ONE plausible explanation of this scripture. It does NOT say that Christ IS God, It offers JUST the opposite. That Christ IS God's. He BELONGS to God. HOW does one OWN something that IS oneself? My arm IS a 'part of ME' but it is NOT ME. My son is a 'part of ME' but He is NOT me.
We ARE Christ's and HE IS GOD'S. He IS the Son of God, just as MY son is MINE.

Once again, I'll be waiting to hear this one....................

MEC

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

...There are TWO eternities. It's SIMPLE....

MEC

I think I will be moving along now.

 

[Imagican]

oh, and Gabby,

I HAVE prayed upon this issue. Well BEFORE I EVER offered the 'truth' here on this forum. Why do you suppose I am SO adamently in DEFENSE of Jesus Christ AS The Son of God?

And foks, you can 'accuse' me of much. You can ridicule me at your 'pleasure'. These things are OBVIOUSLY not for those that have 'chosen' NOT to be 'able' to 'see' what is offered. I can alter NO ONE'S understanding unless they are 'willing' to 'learn'.

But ALWAYS remember, you have been offered these words in LOVE and there has been NOTHING for me to gain in the process. I am simply following as I am 'led'.

I don't know a single person on this forum. NOT ONE. Don't know what your individual relationships are with God through His Son. That is NOT FOR ME TO KNOW. Don't know how many 'crack-heads', prostitutes, murderers, theives, adulterers, haters, liars, etc............ are out there. Each of YOU should KNOW 'who' you are.

I have BEEN all of these things in THOUGHT if NOT in works. This is WHAT I LIVED FOR for MOST of my life.

I KNOW 'what' changed in my life that allows me NOW to shun MOST of such negative behavior. I am STILL a 'work in progress' and WiLL be till the day this vessel's heart no longer beats.

I have witnessed what this 'trinity' allows in the hearts of those that accept it. I have witnessed EVERYTHING short of people's heads spinning around and their 'spitting green funk' in my face. Not JUST here on this forum, but in churches, and EVERYWHERE else that I offer what has been 'revealed'. I have NOT ONCE spewed 'hatred' at ANY INDIVIDUAL over this 'doctrine'.

Don't get me wrong. Learning to LOVE my brother AS myself, (eliminating negative thoughts of others, 'GIVING' WILLINGLY to those that simply ASK, you know TREATING others as I would wish to be treated), has been the ONE thing that has been MOST difficult to accomplish. Of course I get 'angry', of course I still get jealous at times, of course I envy. Admittedly. But I do NOT get ANGRY at those that are unable to 'understand' what I offer. I simply PRAY that those that God chooses WILL understand and I keep on pluggin' in the WAY in which I am 'led'.

You see, I MUST do what I MUST do. I am IN DEBT beyond comprehension. For I have SEEN HELL and was 'pulled out' right at the LAST MOMENT. I would warn ANY that this place is NOT one that IS desirable. But for this 'Salvation' I am indebted BEYOND my capacity to EVER repay. So it's a 'little thing that I DO'. Offering others what I have been offered is a SMALL price to pay for the 'gift' that has been granted.

And if YOU guys even 'think' that I 'bore' you with what I have to offer, you should speak to those that are CLOSEST to me. But you know, these have benefited MUCH in understanding. I even have JEWISH friends that have gained MUCH in understanding of their OWN religion through our discussions of The Bible.

My passion is NOT able to be contained. I speak to ANY and EVERYONE that I come in contact with. Here we discuss doctrinal issues. Usually my speach is confined to witness and testimony of WHAT God has done in MY LIFE. For those with a bit DEEPER understanding, I expound upon ANYTHING that they question. Anyone looking for 'understanding' is able to ask what they will and USUALLY I am able to explain WITHOUT even asking for guidance. In the 'beginning' this was NOT so as it has 'become' with time.

So, please, if you FEEL you must speak 'down' to me, do so at your own folly. Many probably assume that I 'spout out' my understanding based on some subversive web-site, (as I have been accused), or someONE teaching me these things. WRONG. My inspiration and teaching has come FROM ABOVE and have been influenced little by ANY man.

I started STUDYING this 'trinity' upon FIRST being exposed to it. It took ONLY ONE READING of the Bible to come to the conclusion to which I refer. But, I read through the entire WORD no less than five times with NOTHING being asked in UNDERSTANDING but this ONE question. IS 'trintiy' Biblically or Holy inspired? The answer that I was left with without ANY DOUBT in my heart; NO, 'trinity' has NOTHING to do with Our Creator. And the ONLY thing that it has to with Christ is in NAME only.

And not only has great effort been spent in prayer nd Biblical study, but I have read NUMEROUS pieces of literature and books on the HISTORY of the Catholic Church and this 'trinity'. NOT of MY OWN ACCORD. Trust me folks, there were MANY 'other things' that I would have RATHER been doing if NOT for the 'inspiration' offered through prayer.

So, laugh if you will. Falsely accuse if you will. ACT like I'm a 'nut' that doesn't know any better. For EVERY prophet God EVER sent to His people were treated NO differently. I expect NOTHING different. I do NOT do this to 'convince ANYONE' of ANYTHING. I am simply compelled to offer what has been revealed. That simple. And to DO ANYTHING LESS would be to deny what I am 'LED' to Do.

 

[Imagican]

Solo,

ALL the FULNESS of the Godhead DOES 'dwell' WITHIN Christ. I would NEVER teach ANYTHING other than these words.

But NOTICE, 'dwell WITHIN'; this does NOT state that all the fulness IS Christ.

God is ABLE to 'send' who He will at HIS WILL. That He 'chose' His Son to be 'The Sacrifice' for ALL of mankind takes NOTHING away from His Will.

And YOU CAN BELIEVE that it was 'a CHANCE' that God was WILLING to take. For His Son HAD matured to the point that 'mankind' was SUPPOSED to BEFORE partaking of the 'Tree of Knowledge'. That is the ONLY 'way' that He was capable of OVERCOMING sin. For He MOST CERTAINLY COULD have chosen 'differently'.

Adam, if given TIME to 'mature' in Spirit COULD have denied Eve. He was TOO IMATURE though and fell to the encouraging of his 'helpmate'.

We KNOW, (or should), that the Tree of Knowledge was THERE for a REASON. We would have been GIVEN it FREELY in TIME. Satan KNEW that Eve was still WEAK ENOUGH to be encouraged to 'do it HER way'. And Adam was still TOO weak yet to 'stand on his OWN'.

The Tree of Life was there for a REASON too. In time, BOTH would have been 'given FREELY'. Adam and Eve were TOO impatient and 'fell' to their OWN desires above those of their God.

MEC

 

[MarkT]

Jesus said, "I am the light" and we know he didn't speak falsely. The light manifested the wisdom of God because it was by him, by this light and no other, that God made everything and everything was made. It was made for the light, and by the light and through the light because we know, "The LORD by wisdom founded the earth" Pr. 3:19 God knew in advance you wouldn't believe in him.

The 1st appearance of the light was in Genesis 1 ... "Let there be light" ... when 'the Word' was spoken into the darkness. 'The Word' was the light, indistinguishable the one from the other just as 'the Word' was God, indistinguishable the one from the other until Jesus told us he was the light and God was the Father.

Now when we see things in the light of Christ, we see a completely different picture. No longer do we regard anyone including Jesus Christ in human terms. We see Jesus Christ as the last Adam, a life giving spirit; the Lamb of God.

God made his Word a person so he could speak to us and he made him his Son so he would inherit, and by him we could inherit, his kingdom.

The ones who say Jesus was God in the flesh fail to understand. Either they can't hear or they don't want to hear what Jesus said. He said he was the Son to the Father, the Word to the One who said the Word. There's no need to look for evidence to support anything. All it takes is understanding.

Consider the 1st commandment. Why was it given? Was it given so that you could worship the flesh that was God? Because it looks like that is what you want to do. You make statues and images of people and you fall before them. Or was it given so you would worship God in spirit and truth. We know that the ones who worshipped flesh and blood gods and animals did not know God. You were given the commandments for a reason. Not to play with them.

 

[Solo]

:roll:

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

:roll:

Hey Solo,

If you can figure out how to get a bucket of water into cyberspace, I would be happy to boil part of it and freeze part of it for an object lesson. We could then argue over how it can not be the same thing because steam does not keep your soda pop cold. :-D

 

[jgredline]

Hey Solo,

If you can figure out how to get a bucket of water into cyberspace, I would be happy to boil part of it and freeze part of it for an object lesson. We could then argue over how it can not be the same thing because steam does not keep your soda pop cold. :-D

Ai ya yai, Me esestes reyer anjelita.... :-D

 

[Veritas]

Imagician wrote:
1 Corinthians 3:23

23And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

Solo, Vic, gabby.

Please explain HOW this could BE IF Christ IS God. How Christ COULD BE God's, yet BE God. God's IS possessive NOT PLURAL. As I have offered OVER AND OVER; WE can BE ONE with Christ, AS Christ is ONE with God; AS a man and woman CAN BE ONE in marriage. But NOT A ONE OF THESE ONE'S is 'the 'same' entity.

Can I answer?

As Solo's poll in the other thread shows: http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=28156,
we do believe Christ is the Son of God. So we readily acknowledge the verse you posted.

But other verses plainly state that Christ IS God as well. I offered a very plain one a number of times. Titus 2:13

How do I explain that Christ can be Son of God and God at the same time?

Well, maybe I should answer with a rhetorical question.

How do I explain eternity?

How do I explain an all powerful God?

How do I explain an all present God?

How do I explain God's love for treacherous creatures like us?

Some things are just not explainable like we'd like them to be, our minds just can't quite grasp it, but scripture confirms it and our hearts plainly know it to be true.

 

[MarkT]

Can I answer?

As Solo's poll in the other thread shows: http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=28156,
we do believe Christ is the Son of God. So we readily acknowledge the verse you posted.

But other verses plainly state that Christ IS God as well. I offered a very plain one a number of times. Titus 2:13

How do I explain that Christ can be Son of God and God at the same time?

Well, maybe I should answer with a rhetorical question.

How do I explain eternity?

How do I explain an all powerful God?

How do I explain an all present God?

How do I explain God's love for treacherous creatures like us?

Some things are just not explainable like we'd like them to be, our minds just can't quite grasp it, but scripture confirms it and our hearts plainly know it to be true.

Veritas

The letter starts out, "Grace and peace from God the Father and Jesus Christ our Saviour" Titus 1:4 Don't tell me you can read without understanding anything. This isn't that difficult. Just read the part you quoted and what he said just before that. Paul said, "For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all men" So Paul is calling Jesus Christ the 'grace of God'. Again he refers to Jesus as "our blessed hope". Later on he refers to Jesus as the 'goodness and loving kindness of God our Saviour'. So God is our Saviour through Christ because he gave us his Word he will save us.

Paul is saying, we await the 'appearing of the glory', which is consistent with the light that will shine across the globe that Jesus spoke of, 'of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ', the understanding of which is consistent with the knowledge we have that Jesus Christ ascended to the throne of God or 'of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ', which appears in the footnotes, because Jesus Christ is the One who will return and judge the nations. He is the glory of the Father and our Saviour. But we give glory to the Father of our Lord and he would want you to do the same. It's through Jesus Christ, because he is the door, that we find our way into the kingdom. In other words, it's through the Word of God that we enter. It's because of his teachings that we can enter.

 

[Veritas]

MarkT,

I affirm God the Father, I affirm Jesus as Savior. I affirm that Jesus is the 'grace of God', I also affirm Jesus is our "blessed hope" and the "goodness and loving kindness" of God our Savior. I affirm Jesus is the "glory of the Father and our Saviour". I affirm Jesus "is the door", and "is the way", He is "The Word".

I give glory to Jesus and I give glory to the Father. I pray to Jesus, I pray to the Father.

But back to the particular verse I mentioned in Titus 2:13 and surrounding context.

We have "God our Savior" from Titus 1:3

and we have "Jesus our Savior" from Titus 1:4

I'm assuming you understand it as

God (seperate from) and Savior, Jesus Christ

and I understand it as

God and Savior, Jesus Christ

I do so because of the way Savior is being used interchangably between the two, and I plainly believe that God is our only Savior.

I am the LORD your God...You shall acknowledge no God but me, no Savior except me. Hosea 13:4

I posted this before but no one answered me, glad to have your ear.

 

[francisdesales]

From the INCEPTION of the CC, they MISSED crucial pieces of the TRUTH

And exactly WHEN did the Catholic Church start?? Can you point me to some evidence that it didn't start in 33 AD??

Regards

 

[MarkT]

Now many of you say Jesus was God incarnate and say 'in the flesh'. But can God be contained by the flesh? Or be flesh? No. At least not flesh as we know it. How many times did Jesus tell us the old wineskin is insufficient; that flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom. The old wineskin can not contain God. To say this is to be ignorant of the fact that God created anything new. To say Jesus was God in the flesh is saying God was in the old wineskin. Jesus said you don't just put a patch or a fix on an old wineskin. You must be born again. The flesh is insufficient to contain the Spirit. Jesus was born one of us, in our likeness, but he was conceived by the Holy Spirit. He was the Word of God in the flesh which means the inside of his cup was sufficient to contain God and the Holy Spirit. But he was from above. We are from below. We must be born again because we're of Adam's flesh. We have to be born of the words of God and the Spirit of God.

 

[stranger]

Imagican

But HOW ABOUT IT;

1 Corinthians 3:23

23And ye are Christ's; and Christ is God's.

Paul is arguing about 'belonging' in chapture 3, specifically factions developing in the church at Corinth. 1 Cor 3:4 For when one says: 'I belong to Paul, and another I belong to Apollos' are you not mere men.
(NASB reads I am of Paul. . .).

So Paul continues the argument. . .

v21 So then let no one boast in men, for all things belong to you. . .
v22 whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or things present or things to come, all things belong to you.

NOW notice how Paul turns the argument around from their perspective of belonging to factions (mere men) TO all things belonging to them. Paul points out the inheritence of the saints in stark contrast to the inverted thinking of the factional Corinthians.

Now we arrive at v23. . . and you belong to Christ and Christ belongs to God.

Lest humanly speaking Christ is considered to be yet another mere man, like Paul, Cephas, Apollos etc. and the Corthinians make another faction out of Him - Paul reminds them that Christ belongs to God hence the Corinthians belong to God. The implication is that God owns them.

So the sequence is logical, Christ was sent by God to purchase a people for His own possession. He came not to do His own will but the will of the Father who sent Him.

 

[Rick W]

I don't understand the positions taken by MarkT and Veritas.
It seems like the same to me.
:smt102

Or am I missing something? (most likely I think)



"Word" as used in John 1:1
-----------
3056. logos log'-os from 3004; something said (including the thought); by implication, a topic (subject of discourse), also reasoning (the mental faculty) or motive; by extension, a computation; specially, (with the article in John) the Divine Expression (i.e. Christ):--account, cause, communication, X concerning, doctrine, fame, X have to do, intent, matter, mouth, preaching, question, reason, + reckon, remove, say(-ing), shew, X speaker, speech, talk, thing, + none of these things move me, tidings, treatise, utterance, word, work.
-----------

One cannot separate "thought", reasoning (the mental faculty), motive, God's Divine Expression, God's cause, intent ... all the above from God anymore than I can separate my motive, intent, thought, reasoning or cause from myself. What I communicate is me. What I intend is me. Any court of law will tell you the same. When a tape is presented as evidence against me that tape is considered me and is used as such against me. That tape is me. I can be convicted because that tape testifies that it is me. I and what's on that tape are one and the same. I can't state that what's on that tape is not me, another entity apart from me. A prosecuting attorney would have a field day IF the defense attorney put forth such a claim. I convict myself by what (me, my intent, my word, my motive or cause) is on the tape (the physical containment). The tape itself is not me. What is on it is me.
If God were to give a "tape" to mankind it would be the flesh of Christ whose intent, word, motive or cause IS God. The Divine Expression. And one cannot separate God's Divine Expression from God.


The Word of God is the way.
The Word of God is the truth.
The Word of God is the life.
The Word of God is the resurrection.
The Word of God is the Alpha and the Omega.
The Word of God is the faithful and true witness.
The Word of God is the captain of our salvation.
The Word of God is the bread of life.
The Word of God is the light of the world.

And on and on.

Christ is as much God as God is. Of course Christ is equal to God. The Jews understood this a lot more than most do today. They knew exactly what Jesus was saying and were about to stone Him for it.

We must be careful not to claim the tape itself is me no more than the flesh of Christ is God. There is a difference and it's that difference by which people use to refute the trinity.


/"Look at that tape. Does that look anything like you?"

/No.

/"Then how can it be you?"

/But that's not...

/"Look. There's the tape right? And there you are. You can't be here and there at the same time. That tape is not you."


Just try that argument in a court of law and see how far you get.

(And no, I'm not saying Christ is a recording so please don't go there)

I think the problem arises from the fact that we can't fathom how an intent or expression can become flesh no more than what is "on" the tape can become flesh. Yet, we have no problem imagining the possibility when Captain Kirk's alter-ego becomes flesh. And of course to make it interesting that alter-ego is the evil side of our dear captain so there is a storyline.

 

[MarkT]

But back to the particular verse I mentioned in Titus 2:13 and surrounding context.

We have "God our Savior" from Titus 1:3

and we have "Jesus our Savior" from Titus 1:4

I'm assuming you understand it as

God (seperate from) and Savior, Jesus Christ

and I understand it as

God and Savior, Jesus Christ

I do so because of the way Savior is being used interchangably between the two, and I plainly believe that God is our only Savior.

I am the LORD your God...You shall acknowledge no God but me, no Savior except me. Hosea 13:4

I posted this before but no one answered me, glad to have your ear.

The LORD spoke to the prophets in visions and dreams. And as I said before, he appeared to Moses and Abraham. Abraham saw his 'Day' which means the light, or the Day, as the light was called, appeared as God Almighty to him. But we know now that no one has ever seen the Father so who did Abraham see? It was the light of God. The light was with God in the beginning. Being in the form of God, like a master workman, he created the world and everything in it. The prophets didn't even know who the 'arm' of the LORD was. God didn't reveal himself to them. Isaiah wrote, "Behold the Lord GOD comes with might, and his arm rules for him" Isa. 40:10 Everything God said to the prophets was said in his name, the LORD, by the Holy One of Israel and the Holy One pre-existed the Son. The LORD, the Holy One said, "I am God, and also henceforth I am He." So God is our Saviour. The LORD is He. But the Holy One of God became one of us. It was granted to him that he should have life in himself as God has life in himself and that he should inherit his Father's throne and be our Saviour. The way I see it, God is our Father and Christ is our Saviour. This does not contradict Hosea. It just puts the words in a new light.