thisnumbersdisconnected
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- Aug 9, 2012
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100% agree, Mit! Thanks
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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why didn't God stop the Nazis?
- Thread starter dinoguy
- Start date
iLOVE
Member
- Oct 4, 2012
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But they shouted, "Take him away! Take him away! Crucify him!" "Shall I crucify your king?" Pilate asked. "We have no king but Caesar," the chief priests answered. John 19:15
Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, O house of Israel?' Ezekiel 33:11
J
JCitoL
Guest
the true God and the true Saints hardly are like the fanatic cultists from those movies where they walk around their village with knifes in the hands seeking to kill the sinners saying frequently: "the sinners must die, the sinners must die...", but They primarily are all-loving saviours, the murderers are the devil and its servants/workers, but there is not such an earnest farmer who seeds in order to destroy the seeds/harvest which it seeded
Blessings
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thisnumbersdisconnected
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I never said they were nor is there any reason whatsoever to believe that that, or something similar, is the case. Your strawman hardly addresses my point, which still stands: God killed them in judgement, they were not murdered.
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JCitoL
Guest
we just said it albeit with a bit of humour, but we did not allude aught against you with it, nor sought to impeach you, excuse us if it somehow appeared you that we tried to treat you bad, we just testified that the true God is not evil, otherwise He would be the greatest sinner of the universe, there is just no way the universal Administrator(viz. the true God) to misuse the souls, while the murderer therein which asks and executes the "wet works" is satan
Blessings
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No one is saying God is evil but that doesn't mean he didn't kill Anainas and Sapphira in judgement.
J
JCitoL
Guest
no way the true God to turn out killer, or how is it possible killers to be wanted for nurserymaids?!
1 John 1:5-10 "This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another(i.e. then we have benevolence/friendliness towards the others), and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we(i.e. but if we sinning) say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins(i.e. if in such circumstances we confess that the fault is our and not of God), he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If(i.e. but if) we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."
Blessings
- Apr 2, 2003
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Do you read the OT much? There are many recorded incidents of God killing:
Jos 23:3 And you have seen all that the LORD your God has done to all these nations for your sake, for it is the LORD your God who has fought for you. (ESV)
Jos 5:13 When Joshua was by Jericho, he lifted up his eyes and looked, and behold, a man was standing before him with his drawn sword in his hand. And Joshua went to him and said to him, "Are you for us, or for our adversaries?"
Jos 5:14 And he said, "No; but I am the commander of the army of the LORD. Now I have come." And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshiped and said to him, "What does my lord say to his servant?" (ESV)
Psa 44:2 you with your own hand drove out the nations, but them you planted; you afflicted the peoples, but them you set free;
Psa 44:3 for not by their own sword did they win the land, nor did their own arm save them, but your right hand and your arm, and the light of your face, for you delighted in them. (ESV)
And that was just a quick search. I should also mention Sodom and Gomorrah and the Flood. There are numerous examples in both the OT and NT of God killing people in judgement.
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Mitspa
Guest
What is it not written, That Gods ways are higher than our ways. His thoughts higher than ours?
Anytime we look to judge what God calls right, we are in the fallen nature. We are under the lie? "you can be as God, knowing good and evil"
The reason so few can grasp the truth of the gospel is because it does not make sense to our natural thoughts of what is good and evil? God declares that He is "righteous and just" in making the sinner righteous! He takes all judgment of right and wrong out of the hands of man. Basically He says whatever He says is right, is right! The reason so few can turn away from the law into faith is because it goes against this desire to judge good and evil.
If God allows evil to have its time? what man can question Him? If God destroys, who can bring a charge against Him?
Thankfully for us, He has revealed His EXPRESS IMAGE in our Lord Jesus. And through Him, we have full assurance of Gods mercy. What if some reject His Mercy? Is God to answer to man, when man reaps what he has sown?
On that great and terrible Day of the Lord, no man will come away from His Judgment saying "God is not fair or just" but every man will be sure of this one thing? God is just!
Even as some are taken away they will desire to know such a just God, and they will be sure they have earned their destruction.
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JCitoL
Guest
satan had an inner/domestic power in the times before the New Testament whereby it was able to appear and operate as a part of God, why isn't there the name "Jehovah" in the New Testament books?!, this is (so) because "Jehovah" was an appearance of God that satan was able to sit in on as well as it is shown in the book of Job 1:6, while after its inner/domestic power has been destroyed on the part of God by Jesus and His sacrifice of the cross wherewith He has annulled His appearance "Jehovah", and therefore the name of God in the books of the New Testament is: Father(God), Son(Jesus), and Holy Ghost, and there is no more "Jehovah", because exactly satan was the misleading and the destructive power by the appearance "Jehovah"
John 8:41-44 "Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.",
John 14:30 "Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world(i.e. the wicked) cometh, and hath nothing in me.",
John 12:31-32 "Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out(viz. now the whole inner/domestic power of satan will permanently be destroyed). And I, if(i.e. and when) I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.",
Matthew 27:50-56 "Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom(viz. all inimical/pernicious ordinances in God's covenant/testament has been annulled); and the earth did quake(viz. the powers did shake), and the rocks rent(viz. and the whole inner/domestic power of satan has permanently been removed/destroyed); And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God. And many women were there beholding afar off, which followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering unto him: Among which was Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee's children."
Blessings
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- Apr 2, 2003
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There is much there that is simply incorrect but I do not have the time to address it right now. God has killed people, and will kill many more, in judgement. Period.
J
JCitoL
Guest
hardly the ill is welcome/wanted, because there is no such human who wants to be a sufferer, whether hence is God evil in lieu of satan at this rate?!
Blessings
I don't know any Chrisitan who believes God will protect them from bad things happening. I agree that our odds are about the same.
Most of us understand God will meet our need. Our need is not for comfort, food or water.
Our need is to know God.
"There is no pit so deep that He is not deeper still." quote Elizabeth Ten Boom, survived Ravensbruck, one of the worst concentration camps in Germany.
If you cannot undertand what she is saying read her book or check out the movie about her life. I watched the movie online free.
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Mitspa
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What?? Well I have no idea what you are trying to say? But God is just and what He says is right is right! Like it or not it dont matter.
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Mitspa
Guest
Boy, how would you like to be a part of this church group?
How would you like to go on a trip with this bunch? I can hear the prayer before the trip: Lord we know that you will not help us, nor comfort us in anyway. We know that you do not do the things that Jesus taught or that you promised in your word. But we sure are glad to "know you" before we thirst or starve to death or are killed on this trip- amen
Jasoncran, you sound like your astonished that I think God wants evil to happen. You seem to want to leave me wiggle room to deny that I believe that God wants evil to happen. I am not sure why you find this belief so astonishing. Its not like Abortion, genocide, Hitler, Stalin, and all the evil of our world is a surprise to God. I am guessing at least you believe in foreknowledge. If God foreknew that the evil was going to occur, and did nothing to stop it, then how can we say he did not want it to happen? God could have created a world without evil. He could have created a world where evil exists, but human good triumphs over that evil. I do not think he did. He created a world that was good, but fell into evil in the fall.
Jasoncran, I would say the greatest evil that ever happened was the crucifixion of Christ. Christ, being perfect, and so totally innocent, no greater crime could be done then to give him to the cross. Yet the scriptures say....
Act 2:23 him, being delivered up by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay: Yes, God wanted that evil to happen. Of course he brings a greater good out of that evil in salvation, but that does not mean God did not want it to happen that way. Yes he did.
I think there are foundational differences in the presuppositions level here. I see the universe as created by God so that his glory might be recognized. God wants to show his glory in pouring out his wrath on evil and God wants to show the glory of his grace and mercy upon the elect. God made creation for all of his glory. I think other presuppositions might be that God created the world so he could save as many people as he possibly can save. Hopefully that is not your presuppositional idea.
Another good text would be Romans 9.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus?
Rom 9:21 Or hath not the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction:
This text is about a hypothetical person who complains that God made him evil. Notice in this text there is no denial that God made someone evil. In verse 21, the text suggests that God has that right! He can make a pot fitted for destruction, or one for glory. The text also asserts that it was Gods will to show his wrath and make his power known. To show his wrath and power, he had to create a world where he foreknew evil would come to pass, and intended it to come to pass so that he might judge it and pour out his wrath for his own glory.
This does not mean that God ever did anything evil. This does not mean God participated in helping evil to happen. I am sure we agree that God hates evil and has never had any part in it.
I must admit struggling to understand why the issue of God wanting evil to happen is so difficult. When evil happens does God step back aghast and say "oh my, I really did not want that to happen, but oh well, I cannot interfere in man's free will."
God interferes in mans free will all the time. Jonah never intended to go to Ninevah did he? Did God step back and say "oh bummer, Jonah is not cooperating with his free will."
Think of the chastening passages. If God brings evil upon believers and wants that to happen to bring about repentance, what will he do to those who are rebels against him. What will he do to Hitler?
Jasoncran, I would say the greatest evil that ever happened was the crucifixion of Christ. Christ, being perfect, and so totally innocent, no greater crime could be done then to give him to the cross. Yet the scriptures say....
Act 2:23 him, being delivered up by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye by the hand of lawless men did crucify and slay: Yes, God wanted that evil to happen. Of course he brings a greater good out of that evil in salvation, but that does not mean God did not want it to happen that way. Yes he did.
I think there are foundational differences in the presuppositions level here. I see the universe as created by God so that his glory might be recognized. God wants to show his glory in pouring out his wrath on evil and God wants to show the glory of his grace and mercy upon the elect. God made creation for all of his glory. I think other presuppositions might be that God created the world so he could save as many people as he possibly can save. Hopefully that is not your presuppositional idea.
Another good text would be Romans 9.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he still find fault? For who withstandeth his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why didst thou make me thus?
Rom 9:21 Or hath not the potter a right over the clay, from the same lump to make one part a vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction:
This text is about a hypothetical person who complains that God made him evil. Notice in this text there is no denial that God made someone evil. In verse 21, the text suggests that God has that right! He can make a pot fitted for destruction, or one for glory. The text also asserts that it was Gods will to show his wrath and make his power known. To show his wrath and power, he had to create a world where he foreknew evil would come to pass, and intended it to come to pass so that he might judge it and pour out his wrath for his own glory.
This does not mean that God ever did anything evil. This does not mean God participated in helping evil to happen. I am sure we agree that God hates evil and has never had any part in it.
I must admit struggling to understand why the issue of God wanting evil to happen is so difficult. When evil happens does God step back aghast and say "oh my, I really did not want that to happen, but oh well, I cannot interfere in man's free will."
God interferes in mans free will all the time. Jonah never intended to go to Ninevah did he? Did God step back and say "oh bummer, Jonah is not cooperating with his free will."
Think of the chastening passages. If God brings evil upon believers and wants that to happen to bring about repentance, what will he do to those who are rebels against him. What will he do to Hitler?
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Mitspa
Guest
And some wonder why God dont do more to help these people? I bet this is the kind of "christians" that was in europe at the time of hitler!
A double minded man is unstable in all his ways, let not that man think he will recieve anything from God.
Lol.. sounds like they believe that scripture?
jasoncran
Member
- May 17, 2009
- 38,271
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the jews teach that as a generational curse. when ramban spoke of it it sounded like Calvinism. God allows evil so that men and women can choose to love him or not.but the Talmud is way older then calvin or that thought by him. while I have some credence in that. I disagree with the very notion that God would plan babies like this. 10 to hell one to heaven. sorry yes he knows our beginnings and end , however he doesn't force us to follow him.
it we take romans one to apply to believers that knowingly leave god and lie it should be a lesson for who can it really apply to an atheist whom never met god and knew him?a pastor taught that a few weeks ago after going into what a trial does to us if we reject the lesson and never yield. it made sense. God gave them over to that desire.sorry you are barking up the wrong tree with that idea. im not an eternal security type. I believe we can after knowing god choose to leave him and go to hell.
the evil that men do is of no surprise to me. I have seen war. few things shock me on evil.God never said the whole earth would repent only a few. I believe God is a gentilemen and allows evil for his glory but he never makes men serve him. we can say no to him.other wise the torah would have no wording of choose whom ye shall serve this day whether it be good or evil. a choice that god gave them. surely god doesn't force us to follow him in your eyes.
it we take romans one to apply to believers that knowingly leave god and lie it should be a lesson for who can it really apply to an atheist whom never met god and knew him?a pastor taught that a few weeks ago after going into what a trial does to us if we reject the lesson and never yield. it made sense. God gave them over to that desire.sorry you are barking up the wrong tree with that idea. im not an eternal security type. I believe we can after knowing god choose to leave him and go to hell.
the evil that men do is of no surprise to me. I have seen war. few things shock me on evil.God never said the whole earth would repent only a few. I believe God is a gentilemen and allows evil for his glory but he never makes men serve him. we can say no to him.other wise the torah would have no wording of choose whom ye shall serve this day whether it be good or evil. a choice that god gave them. surely god doesn't force us to follow him in your eyes.