Why didnt God take away the choice without violating freewill

[brightfame52]

Before the world began he had planned out our salvation, he had no purpose for sin itself. Sin by definition means "missing the mark", God doesn't miss his own mark, not was it his purpose for any of us to miss his mark.

You not making sense, sure He purposed sin, He had purposed salvation and grace for sinners before the world began 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

 

[Whatever]

Before the world began he had planned out our salvation, he had no purpose for sin itself. Sin by definition means "missing the mark", God doesn't miss his own mark, not was it his purpose for any of us to miss his mark.

If it wasn't His purpose for us to miss the mark, why did He plan our salvation? You don't plan to save people who haven't missed the mark.

God's purpose for sin was to show (display, make known) His power and wrath against it.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

You not making sense, sure He purposed sin, He had purposed salvation and grace for sinners before the world began 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

What really makes no sense is for God to have sabotaged mankind with sin on purpose just so that he could fix it. Jesus Christ is the second person of the trinity, co-eternal and co-equal with God, of course he was there with God before the world began. There is no mention of "sin" in this verse you quoted.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

If it wasn't His purpose for us to miss the mark, why did He plan our salvation? You don't plan to save people who haven't missed the mark.

God's purpose for sin was to show (display, make known) His power and wrath against it.

No, God's purpose is for us to be fruitful and multiply, fill and subdue the earth (Gen. 1:28), that is the "mark". Sin is Satan's purpose, not God's.

 

[brightfame52]

What really makes no sense is for God to have sabotaged mankind with sin on purpose just so that he could fix it. Jesus Christ is the second person of the trinity, co-eternal and co-equal with God, of course he was there with God before the world began. There is no mention of "sin" in this verse you quoted.

You still not making sense, God had purposed before Adam was created, that Christ was slain for sin he would commit b4 he was created Rev 13:8

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
1 Pet 1:19-20
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

What you think, God created Adam and hoped he would not sin and then forget about sending Christ into the world to die for sin ?

 

[Whatever]

No, God's purpose is for us to be fruitful and multiply, fill and subdue the earth (Gen. 1:28),

That was God' command to Adam and Eve and to us.

Deu 29:29 "The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but those things which are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.

God's purpose is secret, His commands have been given to us.

John 9:2 And His disciples asked Him, saying, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"
John 9:3 Jesus answered, "Neither this man nor his parents sinned, but that the works of God should be revealed in him.

This man like all of us exist to glorify God. He was born blind so that Jesus could heal him and be glorified by it. To us it sounds cruel. But this man suffered what 30 years being blind and begging? He has now been in paradise with Jesus for over 2,000 years.

2Cor 4:17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, is working for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory,
1Peter 4:13 but rejoice to the extent that you partake of Christ's sufferings, that when His glory is revealed, you may also be glad with exceeding joy.

We have the tendency to look at the here and now, when God's purpose is far more than we can fathom.

Isa 55:8 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the LORD. 9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.

 

[Whatever]

What really makes no sense is for God to have sabotaged mankind with sin on purpose just so that he could fix it.

Yes, from our limited, finite creaturly minds not much of what God does makes much sense.

Isa 55:8 "For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," says the LORD. 9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways, And My thoughts than your thoughts.

But what if this creation and this life was just temporary, a stepping stone for something more glorious.

Heb 2:10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Bringing many sons to glory.
1Co 15:46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man.

The original heaven's and earth was the stage for all of this "natural" life to live. But God had something better in mind.

Heb 11:39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise,
Heb 11:40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

The New Heaven and New Earth will be permanent. This is God's final goal. Not everybody will make it but the remnant will.

Isaiah 10:22 Though your people be like the sand by the sea, Israel, only a remnant will return.

Romans 9: 27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel:
“Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea,
only the remnant will be saved.
28 For the Lord will carry out
his sentence on earth with speed and finality.

Let all of Scripture inform you mind about reality, not just your imagination.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

You still not making sense, God had purposed before Adam was created, that Christ was slain for sin he would commit b4 he was created Rev 13:8

Christ was NOT a created being, He was there with God in the beginning, Jn. 1:1-4. You're wrong on the basics. Also, everything God created was good, human beings were VERY GOOD, there was no sin there.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Let all of Scripture inform you mind about reality, not just your imagination.

All of Scripture is consistent on God's character - holy, righteous, intolerable of any sin. God didn't make junk, everything he created in the original world was GOOD, that's not my imagination. What is your imagination is picturing God as a narcissist with a savior complex, poisoning us with sin on purpose then selling us the antidote of salvation. The gist of Jn. 9:1-3 is that while the disciples were pointing fingers, Jesus told them that it wasn't payback for either the man's or his parents' sin in a moral sense, in other words, it wasn't karma, God didn't set him up to be blind at birth on "purpose", His healing was a repudiation of the common belief at the time that this man's blindness was divine punishment for sin - either his own or his parents, as the disciples argued.

The same can be applied to any force majeure, you know, such natural disasters or societal crisis are often erroneously called "act of God", but those are natural phenomena of this fallen world, they are neither party A's nor party B's fault. What is really act of God is God's healing in such dire circumstances. This whole ridiculous idea of "God purposed sin to show his grace and bring men to glory" is busted in Rom. 6:1-2.

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? (Rom. 6:1-2)

 

[brightfame52]

Christ was NOT a created being, He was there with God in the beginning, Jn. 1:1-4. You're wrong on the basics. Also, everything God created was good, human beings were VERY GOOD, there was no sin there.

Wow you way off understanding what I posted

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Wow you way off understanding what I posted

Whatever you posted, it only shows your victim mentality of blaming God for sin. If God had purposed sin, then sin must be God's fault, not Adam's fault, right? Adam himself subtly blamed God for making Eve for him, Gen. 3:12. This kind of thinking I vehemently reject.

 

[brightfame52]

Whatever you posted, it only shows your victim mentality of blaming God for sin. If God had purposed sin, then sin must be God's fault, not Adam's fault, right? Adam himself subtly blamed God for making Eve for him, Gen. 3:12. This kind of thinking I vehemently reject.

You still way off, you cant process it, what I posted

 

[Whatever]

The same can be applied to any force majeure, you know, such natural disasters or societal crisis are often erroneously called "act of God", but those are natural phenomena of this fallen world, they are neither party A's nor party B's fault

Amo 3:6 If a trumpet is blown in a city, will not the people be afraid? If there is calamity in a city, will not the LORD have done it?

"God purposed sin to show his grace and bring men to glory" is busted in Rom. 6:1-2.

This has nothing to do with God. We as creatures should follow God's moral commandments and not justify our sinning as "glorifying God." God can do as He wills.

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

All your passages about God's graciousness, kindness etc, etc, only apply to those who are called. I know when you just read it, it sounds like it is universal.

Pro 16:4 The LORD has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.
Job 21:30 For the wicked are reserved for the day of doom; They shall be brought out on the day of wrath.

I know it is hard when you have been brought up to see God as a peacenick hippie waving the peace sign and who wouldn't hurt a fly, but that is only a human wishful idea.

2Pe 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly; 6 if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;

Answers in Genesis has an article about the population of the Earth at the time of the flood:
Some people believe the population was relatively low. The Bible explains that people were extremely corrupt and violent prior to the Flood. It is not hard to imagine the world being filled with wars, diseases, and other factors that would keep the population in check.
Others believe that Earth’s population was much higher. If the growth rate in the pre-Flood world was equal to the growth rate in 2000 (0.012), there could have been about 750 million people at the time of the Flood. However, given the extremely long lifespans prior to the Flood, the growth rate could have been much higher. Increasing the rate by just 0.001 would put the population at close to four billion at the Flood.

Just imagine killing that many people - men, women and children, not to mention all the baby deer and bunnies, and it appears it did no good. The Lord basically acknowledged this:

Gen 8:21 . . . "I will never again curse the ground for man's sake, although the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.

Meaning, He got rid of all those people, but man's sinful nature will assure that it will be just as bad in the future when the population increases.

 

[Whatever]

What is your imagination is picturing God as a narcissist with a savior complex, poisoning us with sin on purpose then selling us the antidote of salvation.

I never in the world imagined something like this. But I have to put aside my human centered way of looking at reality (man is the most important thing in existence) and let Scripture renew my mind.

Pro 16:4 The LORD has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom.

Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him

People think like this:
God is omnipotent (all powerful)
God is omnibenevolent (all good)
Sin exists in the world
Therefore either # 1 is wrong or # 2 is wrong.

But why does either have to be wrong? What if "sin" has a ultimate purpose in God's plan. Only somebody thinking in the "here and now" can see no good purpose for sin. But what if God's ultimate goal was the New Heaven and Earth, and the "here and now" are just a short period in getting to that goal?
Something like this:
James 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, 3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience. 4 But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing.

In a perfect sinless world, we wouldn't know trials and have to exercise patience.
We can call it as God putting the elect through the school of hard knocks. That is where the vessels of wrath come in. They give us the hard knocks.

Psa 11:2 For look! The wicked bend their bow, They make ready their arrow on the string, That they may shoot secretly at the upright in heart.

Psa 37:32 The wicked watches the righteous, And seeks to slay him.

Psa_92:7 When the wicked spring up like grass, And when all the workers of iniquity flourish, It is that they may be destroyed forever.

I assume the Lord thought it was better to create fallen men who are then perfected through suffering than to create perfect people from the start. And again, these perfected people are only some from every tribe, tongue, and people, not everyone.

Rev 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation,
Rev 5:10 and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth.”

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Amo 3:6 If a trumpet is blown in a city, will not the people be afraid? If there is calamity in a city, will not the LORD have done it?

You're taking the verse out of context. This chapter is about the authority of the Lord's prophecy spoken through prophet Amos, a judgment against Israel for their sins, it has nothing to do with all force majeure in general.

This has nothing to do with God. We as creatures should follow God's moral commandments and not justify our sinning as "glorifying God." God can do as He wills.

This has everything to do with a repudiation of your rediculous idea that God purposed sin. Sin is the result of disconnection from God, scientifically it's called entropy - the degree of chaos. Sin by definition is missing God's mark, it is Satan's purpose, the polar opposite of God's purpose.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

People think like this:
God is omnipotent (all powerful)
God is omnibenevolent (all good)
Sin exists in the world
Therefore either # 1 is wrong or # 2 is wrong.

No, only you think like that. First of all, sin is not a separate, self-sustaining entity of any substance, it's the result of disconnection from God, as I pointed out. Ask yourself, do darkness, coldness, death and vacuum exist by and of themselves? Scientifically, no - darkness is the LACK of light; coldness is the LACK of heat; death is the LACK of life; vacuum is the LACK of air. They are antithesis of light, heat, life and air. Likewise, sin is the lack of God's presence, and the reason for that is explained by Jesus - men loved darkness rather than light, they preferred God's absence to God's presence. After Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit, what did they do? Hid from God, Gen. 3:8. That's a conscious choice made out of fear - Adam was "afraid", Gen. 3:10, which by no means makes God less omnipotent. Despite all this rebellion, God still loves us and cares for us that He sent his only Son to save us, and once again, accepting or rejecting him is a conscious choice, God doesn't force anybody to be saved. For anyone who rejects, the alternative is not another light, but darkness. Jesus is the only way.

"And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil." (Jn. 3:19)
“My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.” (Jn. 18:36)

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

1 Cor. 6:12 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

 

[Whatever]

1 Cor. 6:12 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

What connection does that have to my post?

 

[Whatever]

Sin by definition is missing God's mark, it is Satan's purpose, the polar opposite of God's purpose.

And yet, God uses sin to accomplish His purposes.

Act 4:26 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers were gathered together, against the Lord and against his Anointed’— 27 for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.

Luke names Pontius Pilate, Herod, the Gentiles and the people of Israel who did whatever God had planned to take place.

Act 2:23 this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.

How many commandments did they break in doing this? Bearing false witness?
Exo 23:2 You shall not follow a crowd to do evil; nor shall you testify in a dispute so as to turn aside after many to pervert justice.

So, why did God do or allow this?

Heb 2:10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

The word fitting means suitable or proper.
Here is how the Amplified Bible puts it:
Heb 2:10 For it was fitting for God [that is, an act worthy of His divine nature] that He, for whose sake are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the author and founder of their salvation perfect through suffering [bringing to maturity the human experience necessary for Him to be perfectly equipped for His office as High Priest].

 

[Whatever]

Whatever you posted, it only shows your victim mentality of blaming God for sin. If God had purposed sin, then sin must be God's fault

You could say it is God's fault from many perspectives. No creation - no sin.

Most people say God knew of the possibility of sin - that Adam might sin - but God took a chance. He could always figure out a way to fix it.

But that taking a chance, resulted in billions of people suffering and dying, the holocaust, rapes, murders and on and on. God could have avoided all this by deciding it was not worth taking that chance - thus no sin.
But He took the chance.

If I take the chance of driving a car 180 mph down a road with no intention of hurting anybody, but end up skidding off the road and killing people in 3 or 4 other cars I ran into, am I not to blame?