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Why do feel we have to market salvation as free? What are we really appealing to in a man?

Dorothy Mae said:
You must be joking right. Of course there is. There are thousands of examples of people who seized something because they believed they had a right to it. Probably millions. They powerfully believed it was there’s.
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I hope you're not purposely misunderstanding what I'm saying. There is no earthly example of something occurring for you by the power of believing, you know, like a magical power. A bowl of corn flakes is not going to appear on my desk for me to eat by power of believing. Nothing works that way in the world. But in the supernatural, salvation does appear for a person by power of believing. That's how God ordained it will come to a person. Is there any analogy that illustrates that? I can't think of one, because this world doesn't work that way, that I know of.
 
Dorothy Mae , how accurate is this analogy?

Just like how a bowl of corn flakes will be on the kitchen table for you if you just believe, so it is that salvation will be yours if you just believe.

Actually, I've got a bowl of Cocoa Krispies lined up for the morning, but you get what I'm driving at. But anyway, please adjust the analogy above if necessary to show us that an analogy does exist. Of course, you'll be tempted to adjust the analogy by saying if you just have the faith to get up and pour a bowl for yourself you'll have it, right?
 
jerry63935 said:
there is security in our salvation that can not be denied. the big question is so secure can one walk away/ be lost again.

that is a 64 thousand dollar question. to be honest it will never be settled here on earth. as stated i am not osas or osnas teacher. i go by a know so salvation you should know if you are. if you dont know your not.

as per living staying in sin till death. then making heaven our home. i find no scripture that backs that up.
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I think it's in Romans 7
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.../

And when the Lord comes He will give redmption to our flesh bodies and we will be transformed in the twinkling of an eye.
 
jerry63935 said:
did you say something ? :salute
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Many things…and many more I understand I didn’t say. Have you grown dull of hearing? Those who were there when God said audibly, “this is my beloved son” didn’t hear those words. They convinced themselves they’d heard thunder. They asked themselves if God had said anything.
 
Niblo said:
The Nazi invasion of Eastern Europe is just one example.
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It as unfortunate for Jethro Bodine that he had used “seized something because of the power of their belief.” All those who believed something was theirs rightfully, who then seized what they desired based solely on believing it should be theirs, did this. There must be millions of examples. Putin believes powerfully that the Ukraine belongs to Russia and has seized part of it. This is because he believes it.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
Dorothy Mae , how accurate is this analogy?

Just like how a bowl of corn flakes will be on the kitchen table for you if you just believe, so it is that salvation will be yours if you just believe.
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Since no one in the whole of the Bible says anything so silly, it doesn’t match the Bible nor real life.
Jethro Bodine said:
Actually, I've got a bowl of Cocoa Krispies lined up for the morning, but you get what I'm driving at.
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No I don’t.
Jethro Bodine said:
But anyway, please adjust the analogy above if necessary to show us that an analogy does exist.
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But it doesn’t.
Jethro Bodine said:
Of course, you'll be tempted to adjust the analogy by saying if you just have the faith to get up and pour a bowl for yourself you'll have it, right?
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Not at all.The analogy needs to reflect the truth. The truth doesn’t adjust itself to fit the analogy.
 
Dorothy Mae said:
It as unfortunate for Jethro Bodine that he had used “seized something because of the power of their belief.” All those who believed something was theirs rightfully, who then seized what they desired based solely on believing it should be theirs, did this. There must be millions of examples. Putin believes powerfully that the Ukraine belongs to Russia and has seized part of it. This is because he believes it.
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Who recognized his faith and gave him Ukraine because of that faith?
 
Dorothy Mae said:
Since no one in the whole of the Bible says anything so silly, it doesn’t match the Bible nor real life.

No I don’t.

But it doesn’t.

Not at all.The analogy needs to reflect the truth. The truth doesn’t adjust itself to fit the analogy.
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So, it's silly that when we have faith God gives us that which we have faith for? That's sounds exactly Biblical to me. Why is that silly and not Biblical to you?
 
Jethro Bodine said:
Who recognized his faith and gave him Ukraine because of that faith?
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You did not say that someone had to recognize that faith. You said no one has faith that leads to them seizing what they believe in. Unfortunately for you, you worded is such that those who believe seize what they believe is theirs. I suspect you meant something else. But as you worded it that way, it is certainly what has happened in this world many many times.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
So, it's silly that when we have faith God gives us that which we have faith for? That's sounds exactly Biblical to me. Why is that silly and not Biblical to you?
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No, what is silly is trying to make faith in God like a bowl of cereal. That sounds like the Bible to you?? Really?
 
Dorothy Mae said:
No, what is silly is trying to make faith in God like a bowl of cereal. That sounds like the Bible to you?? Really?
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Just tell us what it is in this world that we receive by believing we have received it. There is no adequate analogy to illustrate what only happens in the supernatural.
 
Dorothy Mae said:
You did not say that someone had to recognize that faith. You said no one has faith that leads to them seizing what they believe in. Unfortunately for you, you worded is such that those who believe seize what they believe is theirs. I suspect you meant something else. But as you worded it that way, it is certainly what has happened in this world many many times.
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What power is there in the world that responds to our faith and gives us what we believe? There isn't one, of course. That is purely a spiritual concept of which no earthly analogy exists to illustrate it. You made an argument for the person himself giving himself what he believes. Which really makes my point. Justification/salvation is not you doing something to fulfill what you believe. It's a supernatural other-worldly thing where God recognizes a person's faith and gives them what they have faith about. There is no equivalent of that in creation.

Do you believe that justification (being made righteous) is granted to a person on the basis of them believing in God, all by itself, not on what they do? If you don't then what do you believe makes a person righteous?
 
Jethro Bodine said:
Just tell us what it is in this world that we receive by believing we have received it. There is no adequate analogy to illustrate what only happens in the supernatural.
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I assume you mean like believing the gospel and thereby a man is saved, right? A man who has believed the teachings of Christ (repented, etc.) has received forgiveness and so on. Now what materially has he received from his faith? Nothing concrete as that is not the point. What is more, if believing benefitted a man materially, then we’re back to the middle ages we’re not “believing” had negative material consequences. So we believe we’ve received something no one but us knows to be the case.

This is not at all unheard of in this life. There are those who believe say, someone loves them. They receive all the internal warm feelings that brings. There are similar examples in other religions. People believe something and receive the inward rewards of that mental line of assumptions.

But wait, you say! What if what they believe is NOT TRUE? Good point, glad you thought of it as you see clearly the crux of the matter. What if what they believed isn’t so? It means they enjoyed the inward pleasures for a time that will never result in outward reality. That’s why it’s important to believe the truth, not just believe.

Many will come to in that day saying, Lord, lord (believing) …. and I will say to them depart from me. (believed something not true)
 
Jethro Bodine said:
What power is there in the world that responds to our faith and gives us what we believe? There isn't one, of course. That is purely a spiritual concept of which no earthly analogy exists to illustrate it. You made an argument for the person himself giving himself what he believes. Which really makes my point. Justification/salvation is not you doing something to fulfill what you believe. It's a supernatural other-worldly thing where God recognizes a person's faith and gives them what they have faith about. There is no equivalent of that in creation.

Do you believe that justification (being made righteous) is granted to a person on the basis of them believing in God, all by itself, not on what they do? If you don't then what do you believe makes a person righteous?
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In order for that “power” to give us what we believe, we must believe in line with what that “Power” has taught. It isn’t the faith that renders a response. It is believing the truth. God doesn’t simply recognize a faith because it’s a faith. He recognizes a faith that has yielded itself to the truth. It’s vital we believe the truth, not simply believe something. Jesus rewarded those who believed the truth.

When we repent of our sins thereby demonstrating we believe what the Holy Spirit is showing us (about ourselves) AND ask for mercy/forgiveness believing thereby that God has provided a way, we are justified by that faith in the truth. This provides us a clean heart and power to go on no longer bent on rebelling against God’s moral law but obeying it.

As for being made righteous, why is that a goal? I never think about it. I think about pleasing Him. Why should I think at all about my own state of righteousness? I’m forgiven over and over as I repent as He shows me. I’m satisfied, very satisfied to be honest, with being forgiven. Why do I need the description “righteous?”
 
Dorothy Mae said:
It as unfortunate for Jethro Bodine that he had used “seized something because of the power of their belief.” All those who believed something was theirs rightfully, who then seized what they desired based solely on believing it should be theirs, did this. There must be millions of examples. Putin believes powerfully that the Ukraine belongs to Russia and has seized part of it. This is because he believes it.
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Exactly. Excellent example 👍
 
Dorothy Mae said:
As for being made righteous, why is that a goal? I never think about it. I think about pleasing Him. Why should I think at all about my own state of righteousness? I’m forgiven over and over as I repent as He shows me. I’m satisfied, very satisfied to be honest, with being forgiven. Why do I need the description “righteous?”
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Only the righteous will enter the kingdom of God at the end of the age. God justifies the person who believes and trusts in the blood of Christ, declaring them righteous and, thus, qualified for entrance into the kingdom of God.

Colossians 1:12
12giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in the light.

Reformists are the ones who say you never have to worry about it again. As a non-Reformist, you should know that you remain qualified as long as you continue to believe, letting the word of the gospel remain in you (1 John 2:24-25).
 
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