Why do feel we have to market salvation as free? What are we really appealing to in a man?

[Jethro Bodine]

In order for that “power” to give us what we believe, we must believe in line with what that “Power” has taught.

Give me an analogy. What does the world do for us if we'll just believe?

It isn’t the faith that renders a response. It is believing the truth. God doesn’t simply recognize a faith because it’s a faith. He recognizes a faith that has yielded itself to the truth.

That's fine. I agree with that. But let's stay on point. What power in this world responds to people's believing and gives them what they believe? What analogy using this world is adequate to illustrate how that happens in the supernatural with God?

It’s vital we believe the truth, not simply believe something. Jesus rewarded those who believed the truth.

Yes, Jesus rewards believing. Give me an analogy using something in this life to illustrate that truth. I'm suggesting that whatever it is you can think of is going to be woefully short of illustrating it because there is no equivalent in this life of that concept.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I assume you mean like believing the gospel and thereby a man is saved, right? A man who has believed the teachings of Christ (repented, etc.) has received forgiveness and so on.

What's the 'etc.'?

What do you believe makes a person righteous?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Only the righteous will enter the kingdom of God at the end of the age. God justifies the person who believes and trusts in the blood of Christ, declaring them righteous and, thus, qualified for entrance into the kingdom of God.

So you’re concerned about you getting into Heaven? That’s why your state of righteousness is important?

Colossians 1:12
12giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in the light.

Reformists are the ones who say you never have to worry about it again. As a non-Reformist, you should know that you remain qualified as long as you continue to believe, letting the word of the gospel remain in you (1 John 2:24-25).

True, they have their permanent ticket. Whether God acknowledges that as valid is another matter.

In general, I’m fairly another who hears “well done good and faithful servant” won’t be refused entry.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So you’re concerned about you getting into Heaven? That’s why your state of righteousness is important?

I want to go to heaven. No apologies here.

True, they have their permanent ticket. Whether God acknowledges that as valid is another matter.

As long as they don't think they are justified (made righteous) by doing righteous things they, too (Reformists) will enter the kingdom of God at the end of the age.

In general, I’m fairly another who hears “well done good and faithful servant” won’t be refused entry.

The person who is made righteous by faith in the blood of Christ apart from works, and continues in that faith IS the person to whom God will say, "well done good and faithful servant".

It's the works salvationist who thinks justification is given in exchange for righteous obedience that will be turned away. They have the righteousness of the Pharisees—their own. A righteousness that won't save them in the day of God's wrath, because it is a hypocritical righteousness. A righteousness that falls woefully short of the righteousness of God. They look good on the outside in the disciplines of their religion but they remain unchanged on the inside. They will be among the many who will say to Jesus, "‘Lord, Lord, did we not...?" Matthew 7:22

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Give me an analogy. What does the world do for us if we'll just believe?

Let’s say a boss tells the employee if he does ABC, then DEF will be the outcome and he, the boss, will do XYZ for him. Employee is skeptical but decides to believe. It’s optional and only advise. Well, DEF is the outcome and XYZ was granted him. There are lots of these.

That's fine. I agree with that. But let's stay on point. What power in this world responds to people's believing and gives them what they believe?

If they don’t believe the truth, none in this life nor the next. God doesn’t reward any old faith. We must believe the truth.

What analogy using this world is adequate to illustrate how that happens in the supernatural with God?

I gave you one.

Yes, Jesus rewards believing.

Only believing the truth. Believing a lie is NOT rewarded. You keep that vital part out.

Give me an analogy using something in this life to illustrate that truth. I'm suggesting that whatever it is you can think of is going to be woefully short of illustrating it because there is no equivalent in this life of that concept.

As you can see, that’s not the case. I can come up with more. Everytime someone honorable asks another to trust them, they’re offering just that.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Let’s say a boss tells the employee if he does ABC, then DEF will be the outcome and he, the boss, will do XYZ for him. Employee is skeptical but decides to believe. It’s optional and only advise. Well, DEF is the outcome and XYZ was granted him. There are lots of these.

This is a terrible analogy.
It would only be accurate if the boss said if you just believe I will do something for you then I will do it. You're living on planet earth, for corn's sake, that doesn't happen here!

Try again.

You'll begin to get close when you start thinking in terms of the Unrighteous Judge. But even then it still is not an equivalent for how God rewards faith all by itself apart from what you do. The Unrighteous Judge was not responding to the faith of the person in the parable seeking justice. Jesus had to use the next best thing—an impatient, unjust judge who just wanted her to go away.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Only believing the truth. Believing a lie is NOT rewarded. You keep that vital part out.

I did not leave it out.
Thinking you are made righteous by doing righteous things is a lie that, if you believe it, will in no way be rewarded by God.

 

[Charlie24]

I have heard about the free gift of salvation for as long as I can remember. "Salvation is free" meaning you don't have to do anything at all that is difficult or costly or bothersome. If we think about the teaching of Jesus and the apostles, is that the main message we get? Did they teach that one just needs to pray a prayer, "accept Jesus" as though he were unacceptable and desires to be liked, and that is it? Is that really what we even think in the moments after one is convinced to do this?

Think about it. Your standard alter call and some come forward to "accept Jesus" (totally unbiblical but in some cases it is sufficient if the heart is already aware of sin and repentant) and in the minutes following this simple sentence or two, the "new believer" is told that now that they "received this free gift" there are indeed, some strings. They now need to grow in their faith meaning attend church. All of those churches have requirements. Some insist on weekly attendance. Some insist on tithing. Some insist in serving the group in some way. All insist on minimum standards of morality although unless you tell another of your alternative to Jesus' teaching choices, no one is likely to discern a problem. Some, unfortunately today, insist that the new believer must read the Bible ( I say few because this is really not an option and all should insist on this.)

So we call if free but like today's marketing tactics, once you signed up for the "free" whatever, the requirements are added later. So you hook them in and once in, you tell them it is not free after all.

And my second question, are we really appealing to something in a man we want to stir up, getting something for nothing? Is this challenging a man to be better than they know they are now or is this comforting them at the level they are at requiring nothing of them? It is a known phenomenon that when a man has to pay for something, they value it more. Pay a price for your lessons and you are not likely to miss them. Get them for free and you are likely to let it slide. People treat their old junker car differently than a brand new Tesla. Where your treasure is, there is your heart. Offer salvation free and who has their heart in a freebie?

What if we told them it will cost them everything but it is the only life worth living?

The importance of "salvation is free" is the idea that we can do nothing to earn it. It is a free gift by the Grace of God through faith.

Discipleship cannot and does not earn us anything concerning salvation. If we begin to count the cost of discipleship as the means of our salvation, we have reverted to Law.

It must be maintained that salvation is a free gift in order to understand the salvation of God in Grace, apart from works.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The importance of "salvation is free" is the idea that we can do nothing to earn it. It is a free gift by the Grace of God through faith.

Well, that all sounds good until a person actually experiences repentance and forgiveness. Since that forgiveness is so remarkable and so underserved, no one who experienced this would think they earned it. It all seems like a straw man offered to those who haven’t actually repented and been forgiven.

Discipleship cannot and does not earn us anything concerning salvation. If we begin to count the cost of discipleship as the means of our salvation, we have reverted to Law.

The difficulty here is you are separating following Jesus from forgiveness of sins. This is, of course, quite popular but it renders obeying Jesus as optional extras. The repeated warnings to
take care we don’t fall away that Jesus made make no sense. I’ve always found a healthy concern not to lose my faith same as a health concern not to lose my marriage as important.

It must be maintained that salvation is a free gift in order to understand the salvation of God in Grace, apart from works.

No, there no relationship there at all. The terms “free salvation” isn’t in the NT nor is the concept there as necessary to understand salvation of God in grace. Anyone who has been deeply forgiven understands it was His mercy same as anyone rescued from drowning understands it wasn’t by their strength or it wouldn’t be a “rescue.” That’s the teaching of the parable regarding the servant forgiven but refused to forgive. The debt he owed the King ought to have impacts him. Or the man who humbled himself begging God for forgiveness. That man was justified but wouldn’t have started extolling how it was all free cheapening it.

It’s receiving mercy that renders understanding not being told it’s absolutely free.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The difficulty here is you are separating following Jesus from forgiveness of sins.

Following Jesus is separate from the forgiveness of sin ONLY insofar as what MAKES a person righteous. This seems to be the point that you are avoiding.

Following Jesus does not MAKE you a righteous person. The forgiveness of your sins received by faith does that, ALL BY ITSELF, apart from any and all works of righteousness.

(Please forgive my interjection.)

 

[Charlie24]

Well, that all sounds good until a person actually experiences repentance and forgiveness. Since that forgiveness is so remarkable and so underserved, no one who experienced this would think they earned it. It all seems like a straw man offered to those who haven’t actually repented and been forgiven.

The difficulty here is you are separating following Jesus from forgiveness of sins. This is, of course, quite popular but it renders obeying Jesus as optional extras. The repeated warnings to
take care we don’t fall away that Jesus made make no sense. I’ve always found a healthy concern not to lose my faith same as a health concern not to lose my marriage as important.

No, there no relationship there at all. The terms “free salvation” isn’t in the NT nor is the concept there as necessary to understand salvation of God in grace. Anyone who has been deeply forgiven understands it was His mercy same as anyone rescued from drowning understands it wasn’t by their strength or it wouldn’t be a “rescue.” That’s the teaching of the parable regarding the servant forgiven but refused to forgive. The debt he owed the King ought to have impacts him. Or the man who humbled himself begging God for forgiveness. That man was justified but wouldn’t have started extolling how it was all free cheapening it.

It’s receiving mercy that renders understanding not being told it’s absolutely free.

I suppose you haven't seen or noticed the legalism on every Christian website online.

That comes from no separation between faith and works for salvation.

So let's just don't call salvation the free gift through faith anymore. Let the works take that free gift so that legalism can flourish.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I suppose you haven't seen or noticed the legalism on every Christian website online.

Made me laugh. I have noticed and there are more rules and fairly tyrannical enforcement of those rules. It is like living in a fascist state instead of a church. But I have not noticed a push for "salvation is absolutely free and costs you nothing" except in some members (whom I suspect do not want to have to do anything at all.) I have asked a few of these "everything is free" if they feel obligated to love God and most refuse to answer or outright say "no." Salvation or entry into Heaven is so free one does not even need to bother oneself to love the Owner.

That comes from no separation between faith and works for salvation.

No, it does not. Those who see following Jesus as something they did when they repented and were forgiven are not working for the forgiveness they already experienced. That is a straw man argument.

Was the woman who wept washing Jesus' feet with her hair doing that work to get salvation? What about the man in the tree who entertained Jesus with dinner and announced during the meal that he was prepared to give back all that he had stole plus and Jesus, wait for it, announced that at that moment salvation had come to him. What was Jesus thinking? The man offered to do a WORK and Jesus said he was saved because of that work!!! Holy Smoke Bullwinkle!

So let's just don't call salvation the free gift through faith anymore. Let the works take that free gift so that legalism can flourish.

The problem here is the whole and sole focus is on what you (not you personally) got. That is it. Just what you got out of the arrangement. What you might need to give, like loving God, is left out lest you fall into "works salvation" meaning best not love God nor man because doing anything at all for Him is legalism and working your way to salvation.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I did not leave it out.
Thinking you are made righteous by doing righteous things is a lie that, if you believe it, will in no way be rewarded by God.

Yes you did. Where did you say "believing the truth" and not just "reward for believing" period?

You are doing to beat that dead horse over and over again aren't you? Do you have any other aspects of your theology besides DO NOT DO ANYTHING RIGHT AT ALL EVER or you will not be rewarded by God.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Following Jesus is separate from the forgiveness of sin ONLY insofar as what MAKES a person righteous. This seems to be the point that you are avoiding.

It is not separate to Jesus, just some who want to be left off of having to DO ANYTHING at all for any reason.

Following Jesus does not MAKE you a righteous person. The forgiveness of your sins received by faith does that, ALL BY ITSELF, apart from any and all works of righteousness.

(Please forgive my interjection.)

Keep beating that dead horse.

But it probably should be said at this point that not everyone who says to Him, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who do the will of the Father who is in heaven. Hummmmm. It does not say that those who who obey Him doing what is righteous will not enter Heaven for sure.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Hummmmm. It does not say that those who who obey Him doing what is righteous will not enter Heaven for sure.

You should realize that the works salvationist is a HYPOCRITE. He does not have a life of righteous works to present to the Lord at the end of the age. They just think they do.

But anyone who does have a life of righteous deeds to present to the Lord at the end of the age surely did so because they were not works salvationists but genuinely born again people MADE righteous by the blood of Christ, not by the merit of righteous works.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Keep beating that dead horse.

Just tell us. What makes a person righteous?

At this point it's really looking like you believe that a person is made righteous by doing righteous things, like forgiving others. If you don't believe that then tell us what does make a person righteous.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You should realize that the works salvationist is a HYPOCRITE. He does not have a life of righteous works to present to the Lord at the end of the age. They just think they do.

I do not know any and cannot recall ever meeting any.

But anyone who does have a life of righteous deeds to present to the Lord at the end of the age surely did so because they were not works salvationists but genuinely born again people MADE righteous by the blood of Christ, not by the merit of righteous works.

Maybe they just loved God and did not think that much about how free their going to Heaven is. It is possible to love the Giver MORE THAN THE FREE GIFT, you know.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

It is not separate to Jesus

It is separate to how a person is made righteous. Following Jesus does not make you righteous. The forgiveness of your sin received through faith does. That's the ONLY thing that can make you righteous. You keep denying it, but it's kind of obvious that you believe a person is made righteous by doing righteous things, like forgiving others.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I do not know any and cannot recall ever meeting any.

Works salvationist are hypocrites because they lack the change of nature that only comes to a person who has been made righteous solely through the forgiveness of sin, all by itself, apart from and before any righteous work is performed.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Maybe they just loved God and did not think that much about how free their going to Heaven is. It is possible to love the Giver MORE THAN THE FREE GIFT, you know.

Only people who have been made righteous before God solely on the basis of their faith in the forgiveness of God will have the deeds of the Spirit that Jesus will commend them for at the end of the age. Works salvationists who think they are made righteous in God's sight by doing righteous things will NOT have righteous deeds worthy of Jesus' praise at the end of the age because the works salvation gospel does not solicit the righteousness of God for a person from which to perform those righteous deeds. Like the Pharisees, they are only fooling themselves that they are somehow righteous and will as a result be spared the wrath of God at the return of Jesus.