Why do feel we have to market salvation as free? What are we really appealing to in a man?

[Dorothy Mae]

You're not getting it.
God's declaration of righteousness is free because you don't first live righteously to get it. People who think they become righteous in God's sight by doing righteous things are living the very works gospel condemned in scripture.

Has it never occurred to you that when you love someone, you give because you love, not to get something?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

We’ve been over this. You don’t really believe it because if believers don’t automatically forgive as you describe above

The argument is not that Christians AUTOMATICALLY forgive. The argument is that Christians CAN forgive. But forgiveness is just like any other required obedience for the Christian. It may take time as they grow up and mature in Christ to walk in that obedience. And when you do see it you can know that person has been forgiven in Christ. It's the sign that a person has been forgiven in Christ.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I explained that would require me to sin in order for her to love me.

No it wouldn’t. Where is the commandment, “do not pay your wife a dowry to love you.”

Her love is not free. It requires things of me that I can not pay because I am a Christian.

Love is wanting the best for the beloved.

It's not insulting to tell someone how wonderful it is that you didn't pay anything for their love.

Yes it is. No one inthe history of love stories ever tells their sweetheart that they are so glad they didn’t have to pay anything to be loved.They didn’t have to give or deny themselves any pleasure to be loved. “I can be as selfish as I choose and it’s so nice that you love me the same,” is never said.

I would be flattered if someone told me how wonderful it is that I love them unconditionally, because that is how God loves.

That’s not what I said. I said no one tells their sweetheart that they can behave as they like as the love they receive is totally free costing them nothing at all.

Btw, God’s love is unconditional. Salvation is not. He loves everyone in hell.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Has it never occurred to you that when you love someone, you give because you love, not to get something?

Not in regard to being justified. You do not perform works of righteousness to be made righteous. Righteousness can ONLY be received as a free gift.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The argument is not that Christians AUTOMATICALLY forgive. The argument is that Christians CAN forgive. But forgiveness is just like any other required obedience for the Christian. It may take time as we grow up and mature in Christ to walk in that obedience. And when you do see it you can know that person has been forgiven in Christ. It's the sign that a person has been forgiven in Christ.

Atheists forgive too. Besides, you’re changing your story on that, again.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No it wouldn’t.

Yes it would. There are certain sinful things I would have to do in order to be compatible and at peace with her.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Atheists forgive too. Besides, you’re changing your story on that, again.

Atheists aren't noted for forgiving UNCONDITIONALLY.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Atheists forgive too. Besides, you’re changing your story on that, again.

Nope. Never said forgiveness, or any other obedience of the Spirit is automatic. I resist 'automatic' Christianity. I wish it were true, but it's just not. What we have from God is the ABILITY to be obedient, not the guarantee that we will automatically walk in that ability.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Love is wanting the best for the beloved.

And, like the counsel Paul gave to wives, we are to submit to others as is fitting in the Lord. Obviously, joining in with one's sin in order to make them happy would be submitting to them that is not fitting in the Lord.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Not in regard to being justified. You do not perform works of righteousness to be made righteous. Righteousness can ONLY be received as a free gift.

I think we’ve reached the endpoint. It’s the position of a new christian, this emphasis on what you got for free.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yes it is. No one inthe history of love stories ever tells their sweetheart that they are so glad they didn’t have to pay anything to be loved.They didn’t have to give or deny themselves any pleasure to be loved. “I can be as selfish as I choose and it’s so nice that you love me the same,” is never said.

Uh, yes they do. That's the very kind of love that God extended to us to bring us to himself. It's that kind of unconditional love that moves people to repentance.

You being a Christian I'm surprised you don't recognize this unconditional love of God in your own life. Weren't you drawn to God by his love despite the stain of your sinfulness? That's God's unconditional love. You didn't have to fix yourself up first to be loved by God. Or did you? Perhaps you don't understand God's unconditional love for you and are trying to perform to be loved by him?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I think we’ve reached the endpoint. It’s the position of a new christian, this emphasis on what you got for free.

Being freely justified in Christ by faith, not works is indeed fundamental baby milk knowledge (Hebrews 6:1-2). It's not the meat of the word. But there are some Christians who do not have this knowledge and need to be taught all over again (Hebrews 5:12).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Btw, God’s love is unconditional. Salvation is not. He loves everyone in hell.

Justification (being made righteous) is not conditional on you first being righteous. If you think it is then you believe a false gospel, the gospel of works justification/salvation, a gospel that can not, and will not, save you.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Justification (being made righteous) is not conditional on you first being righteous.

That doesn’t make sense. Do you mean justification is not unconstitutional? You say it’s not conditional and give the conditions.

If you think it is then you believe a false gospel, the gospel of works justification/salvation, a gospel that can not, and will not, save you.

Does one have to repent to be justified and saved or is it that one is simply lucky? If one needs to repent (as described as a condition in the preaching in the Bible) it is not at all unconditional.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Being freely justified in Christ by faith, not works is indeed fundamental baby milk knowledge (Hebrews 6:1-2). It's not the meat of the word. But there are some Christians who do not have this knowledge and need to be taught all over again (Hebrews 5:12).

I don’t doubt it but the truth won’t come from other baby Christians still basking in the free salvation you-needs-do-nothing gospel.

 

[gordon777]

Since Jesus is the only foundation that can be laid spiritually, the only "ground" upon which a person may build in their service to God, in what way are the apostles and prophets a foundation? They are mere "building blocks" existing and held in place by the the "stone the builders rejected." Paul is clear that what foundation they constitute is resting on the corner stone of Christ without which the foundation would dissolve. In him, as Paul wrote, the whole building of the "household of faith" is "fitted together" and growing into a holy temple in the Lord. Jesus, then, is The Key, not the apostles or prophets, in whom the entire Church finds its life and foundation.

Christ is first told about by those prophets, Abraham and as many as have spoken, foretold about the days of Christ.

That is why they are mentioned in the foundation, because Israel are the children of the prophets and of the covenants made with their fathers ( Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.)

It is for faith, to know about the covenant beginning, with Abraham, God saying to Abraham, that in his seed shall all the people of the earth be blessed.




Acts 3:24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

 

[gordon777]

Faith in Christ and in the promises of God is indeed an act of obedience. But faith, believing a thing is so, is not a physical act one performs, but a state of mind, an attitude toward certain facts, a willingness of heart to accept something as true. In the case of a converted person, their faith simply receives from God His redemption, justification and sanctification. There is no work to be done; no acts of righteousness to perform; only accepting and receiving His undeserved gift. And this continues to be the dynamic under which the born-again person walks daily with God, by faith, receiving from Him both the desire and ability to do His will. (Philippians 2:13; 2 Corinthians 3:18; Ephesians 3:16, etc.)

Through faith, ( belief) physical things are performed.

God through faith created the worlds, the physical worlds, so without faith being physical also, nothing would exist.


Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.




Through that same faith, Christ layed His life down ( faith and love, faith only works through love, and love is an action)




Galatians 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.


1 John 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

 

[gordon777]

If Abraham had not believed, would God's plan of redemption of humanity have failed? Did His plan rely entirely on Abraham? I think not. No man is necessary to what God intends to do. God needs no human in order to accomplish His ends. And so, what is your preoccupation with Abraham about? If it had not been Abraham, it would have been someone else. The important One is Christ, the God-Man, not Abraham.

How could Abraham not believe ?

Gods testimony to us is that He knows Abraham, that he is faithful and will command his children after him ( to be yet born) to keep the way of the Lord, so that God can bring upon Abraham that which was told ( the promise of life and blessing in the seed of Abraham.)




Genesis 18:17 And the Lord said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;
18 Seeing that Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the nations of the earth shall be blessed in him?
19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the Lord, to do justice and judgment; that the Lord may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

 

[gordon777]

I have no idea what you're going on about here. God is the Father of all born-again believers, who, through Christ, are adopted by Him into His kingdom and family (Romans 8:14-17). Abraham is not my "father" in the sense in which God is.

I believe in Christ, not in the promise made to Abraham. Jesus is my Savior, not an ancient Jewish patriarch. If I am a "descendant of Abraham" it is in the sense in which I, too, by faith, have trusted in the promise of God. That's pretty much the sum-total of my connection to Abraham.

Isaac is symbolic of the born-again believer in contrast to Hagar's child, Ishmael, who was not the "child of promise," as Isaac was, but was a failed attempt to fulfill the promise of God by human means, which is what people do who attempt to walk with God by way of law-keeping. Hagar was a bondswoman, a slave to Abraham, giving birth to Ishmael under a condition of bondage. In contrast, Isaac was born of Sara, the wife, not slave, of Abraham, and so was born free. The Christian believer is spiritually "born free." Free from what? From the bondage and condemnation of the Law of God (but not its righteousness - Romans 8:1-4).

Abraham is the father of all, because he is, as testified, the heir of the world.


Romans 4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.




Next, is that Jesus Christ confirms the promises made to the fathers. God did not do all of His works for no purpose, but because that is the only way faith could be.

Christ fulfilled all that was written of Him, which Israel ( and all) can believe in, by believing that the root of Jesse reigned over the Gentiles.

That is also why the Gospels begin the genealogy of Christ, from Abraham and King David. Showing how we are to believe, or that we cant without taking in all things shared by God....




Matthew 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.



Romans 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

Romans 15:12 And again, Esaias saith, There shall be a root of Jesse, and he that shall rise to reign over the Gentiles; in him shall the Gentiles trust.

 

[gordon777]

They who do so as a common, comfortable feature of everyday living, yes. But the carnal "babe in Christ," who is stumbling and struggling as they learn to walk with God, is not proving they are lost but that they are in the process of growth and change that the Bible describes of all believers. I've pointed out already in earlier posts where Scripture speaks of this process.

You see this is your problem, you do not believe in the words of God first spoken.

They begin to show how we can walk safely, and not stumble.

They show it is the wicked who stumble.


Proverbs 3:23 Then shalt thou walk in thy way safely, and thy foot shall not stumble.

Proverbs 4:12 When thou goest, thy steps shall not be straitened; and when thou runnest, thou shalt not stumble.

Proverbs 4:19 The way of the wicked is as darkness: they know not at what they stumble.



Why would anyone seeking sincerity and truth follow your words Tenchi, that constantly pretend to support scripture, while at the same time directly opposing them ?

Christ came as the light of the world, to follow Him, so we do not be ( as the wicked) to walk in darkness. We then have the light of life. If a man walks in darkness, THEY STUMBLE, ( because there is no light in them, no Christ in them.)




John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

John 11:9 Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.

John 11:10 But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him.

John 12:35 Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth.




Carnal is not light, carnal is dartkness.

Light is not carnal, light is Spirit ( Christ.)

We cannot have fellowship with Christ, while walking in darkness ( that is a lie)

We have to walk in the light as Christ is in the light ( or our sins cant be forgiven, as we never believed in the light) then we lie if we say we have no sin, ( we lie by claiming we cant stop sinning and that we have no sin, because of heresy claiming we are in Christ while we are yet carnal.)


But only those who love their brother abide in the light ( are in Christ/Spiritual) and THERE IS NONE OCCASION OF STUMBLING IN HIM.

He that hates his brother( al they who are yet carnal are not in Christ) walk in darkness, and are blinded.




1 John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

1 John 2:10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.