Why do feel we have to market salvation as free? What are we really appealing to in a man?

[gordon777]

Not only do the first three chapters of 1 Corinthians explain exactly what was the mistake of the Corinthians ( in divisions and contentions and disputes) and how the Holy Ghost teaches the words of God, it is also shown the Corinthians could not bear it. ( your made up claim is that they are saints struggling with sin)

But that was not what was to,d at all, what is only told is they are not believing in the preaching of the cross, through hearing the wisdom of this world ( disputers who come to nothing.)

Hebrews 12, recounts the very same failure Israel had, how they could not endure that which was commanded by Gods words, and they entreated that the word should not be spoke to them any more.




1 Corinthians 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.


Hebrews 12:19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:
20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:




That is why both 1 Corinthians 1 and 2, explain how we are to only be perfectly joined together in the same mind, because this wisdom of God is only spoken among them who are perfect that way.

Again the comparison of Hebrews 12 continues, how the testimony is to the spirits of just men made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, who the disputers, contentious, and division makers are to not refuse to hear ( being unable to bear, and intreating the words not spoken to them, as they could not bear it, both Israel and the Corinthians not able to bear) but it is told to all people, we shall NOT ESCAPE IF WE TURN AWAY FROM HIM THAT SPEAKS ( the Holy Ghost teaching the preaching of the cross.)




1 Corinthians 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

1 Corinthians 2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

Hebrews 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

 

[Dorothy Mae]

What "level" is that, exactly? And I cited what God said to Abraham about Himself, not what Abraham said about God. Did Abraham always live as though God was his "exceeding great reward"? I don't think so. Was Abraham indwelt by the Holy Spirit at all times, a once-for-all redeemed, joint-heir with Christ? Nope. But I am.

Abraham was called the "friend of God" and not by himself as is so popular today. God spoke to Abraham as a friend as well and as one to be honored among men. Pretty impressive. What you offer is a kind of legal arrangement. That is, your theology tells you that you are a once for all redeemed (i.e., behave-as-you-wish-you-are-boung-for-Heaven) joint-heir with Christ. Your theology tells you this. It is written in black and white and so, that is a kind of "legal" arrangement. Whether God sees his side as being legally bound is a different matter.

But I wasn't talking about how God measures whether or not a person loves Him or is just trying to get what he can out of God.

How God measures a man is the most important matter to understand. We will all be measured by this standard.

I know I answered this already but I have some new thoughts on the matter.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I did a search in the Bible on "free salvation" and "salvation is free" and got no hits whatsoever. Free and others, the word "free" is most often in terms of men being free or freed. I did get Tenchi to admit that while that none of the conditions require works for salvation (a position no one here takes so a straw man) he could not refuse the condition of repentance for salvation. Logically if there are any conditions at all, salvation is not free. Dear fellow believers, there is more to life that work and earning. There are benefits for choices made that might involve effort, but the consequences are called consequents and not wages or earnings or deserved because they are none of those.

A typical one is grace. I know the popular (and false) theology is grace is unmerited favor. Well, on the one hand it is naturally not merited same as Christmas presents are never merited. It is granted or given same as Christmas presents. HOWEVER, it is not given without any reference to our choices. the Bible says clearly in both OT and NT that "God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble." So those who humble themselves receive grace. Is it earned? NO. But he does not give grace to the proud. One can accept this and adjust one's view or one can insist grace comes totally unrelated to our choices and wonder why we do not have grace flowing to will and to do His will in a satisfactory manner.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I did a search in the Bible on "free salvation" and "salvation is free" and got no hits whatsoever.

Here...

Romans 3:23-24
23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

You are saved the moment you are freely justified by God's grace in the forgiveness of your sins. The forgiveness of sin that is secured entirely through faith in the Sacrifice of Christ's blood, apart from works.

Now, continuing in that faith is going to cost you this life, but not as payment toward the justification/salvation you ALREADY have FREELY received in Jesus Christ.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

your theology tells you that you are a once for all redeemed (i.e., behave-as-you-wish-you-are-boung-for-Heaven)

It isn't necessary that a person believes that a Christian can live as they want just because they believe that justification/salvation is freely given to a person.

The faith through which a person is "justified freely" (Romans 3:24) is signified by the obedience it produces. No obedience to God shows a person to not be justified/saved. It does not signify that they are somehow freely justified in Christ despite how they live, but rather signifies the exact opposite.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Here...

Romans 3:23-24
23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

Notice “free” and “salvation” are not together. What if being justified isn’t permanent if one returns to blatant and deeply immoral
sin. Being justified by his GRACE which is (adjective, not noun) freely or liberally given. Nothing about salvation being free. Being justified has requirements. Do you disagree? Is repentance unnecessary?

You are saved the moment you are freely justified by God's grace in the forgiveness of your sins.

Scripture please because the “free” is firmly attached to grace. We aren’t freely justified period. His grace is necessary. Grace has requirements too.

The forgiveness of sin that is secured entirely through faith in the Sacrifice of Christ's blood, apart from works.

Repentance is required. Merely believing you’re justified doesn’t make it so. Saying the words doesn’t require God to forgive and justify no matter what words. One has to believe the truth, but believe whatever.

Now, continuing in that faith is going to cost you this life, but not as payment toward the justification/salvation you ALREADY have FREELY received in Jesus Christ.

And if you don’t want to pay the price? What then? No difference?

And can you stop beating that dead horse of works for justification?

Please find a verse that promises”freely received” with no requirements whatsoever? I did a search and got no hits.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

It isn't necessary that a person believes that a Christian can live as they want just because they believe that justification/salvation is freely given to a person.

What a silly answer! Of course it’s not NECESSARY. But if one wants to, that’s the theology to have. You can do as you want and feel
assured from your pastor you’re going to heaven. Sin as you please.

The faith through which a person is "justified freely" (Romans 3:24) is signified by the obedience it produces.

You edited out “freely by his grace.” Changes it.

No obedience to God shows a person to not be justified/saved.

You don’t believe that now do you? You you obey Him 24/7? If not, do you tell yourself you’re not yet justified? Do you tell others the same?

It does not signify that they are somehow freely justified in Christ despite how they live, but rather signifies the exact opposite.

No scripture supports this measuring system. And besides, now justification has BIG requirements and is anything but free. It’s more expensive than what Jesus taught. You’ve shot down your whole position putting these strings in being justified.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Notice “free” and “salvation” are not together.

Justified people are saved people. You are saved the moment you are freely justified in Christ.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What if being justified isn’t permanent if one returns to blatant and deeply immoral
sin.

A return to 'blatant and deeply immoral sin' signifies a person is in unbelief. They either lost the justification they had while a believer, or never had it to begin with.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Being justified by his GRACE which is (adjective, not noun) freely or liberally given.

Grace is a noun in Romans 3:24.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Nothing about salvation being free.

You are saved the moment you are freely justified by God's grace in the forgiveness of you sins.

 

[Tenchi]

Did He say that to you personally?

I don't understand the purpose of this question. Please read Genesis 15:1.

If you consider your walk with God greater than Abraham’s I haven’t much to say

Did I actually say my "walk with God" was greater than Abraham's? No. But I did point out that my "walk with God" is significantly and fundamentally different from Abraham's. In light of this, what point is there in comparing our walks? None at all, that I can see.

But I wasn't talking about how God measures whether or not a person loves Him or is just trying to get what he can out of God.

Dorothy Mae replied:

"I was. It’s important to God."

But you offered this reply in response to what I'd written. Why create an association between the two when you weren't actually replying to my remarks? It's just confusing to do so; linking your remark to my own creates in me an anticipation that you're responding to my remark, which you weren't, really. And inasmuch as your reply to my remark is unrelated directly to my remark, I've got little incentive to give it much attention.

Just because God spoke to men through us ought not to be that impressive to us. He spoke through a donkey too. Humility is important.

Yes. And? I have no idea why you would offer this observation...

 

[Tenchi]

Tenchi said: "The Bible is very clear that saints may (and do) sin. (1 Corinthians 3:1-3"



Your views directly contradict scripture, not agreeing to the words taught here, but attempting to overthrow Gods words, by not looking at what the chapters even say.

No, they don't. See my earlier posts.

Third chapter of Corinthians of course continues. The people not Spiritual, cannot be spoken to Spiritually.

Well, this is just plain false.

1 Corinthians 3:1 (KJV)
1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

1 Corinthians 3:1 (NASB)
1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to infants in Christ.

Babes or infants - take your pick - but either way the Corinthian believers were also IN CHRIST. There's simply no getting around the actual words of Paul in this verse. None of what you pointed out dissolves his description of the Corinthian believers - carnal though they were - as being IN CHRIST. You're attempting, actually, to deny the text of God's word and that makes YOU the one who is trying to "overthrow God's word."

You are rebuked because of your claim of saints sinning in 1 Corinthians 3.

Uh huh. You don't say...

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Being justified has requirements. Do you disagree?

As I've been saying, faith is the requirement to be justified, not works.

Is repentance unnecessary?

Obviously, a renouncing of sin would be a prerequisite for asking for forgiveness for the sins you've committed. But that in no way makes justification not free, as if repentance was something that obligated God to justify you as a debt owed to you for that change of mind. The Bible says justification is free, and that's what it is, despite your attempts to make it conditional on you first being righteous.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Scripture please because the “free” is firmly attached to grace.

Yes, the grace of God's forgiveness. Just read the passage I posted. Romans 3:23-24.

Justification (being made righteous) is free because that happens by having your sins forgiven, not by you doing something. Nothing, not even repentance (a renouncing of your sin) makes you righteous. There is NOTHING you can do to make yourself righteous. That transformation can ONLY happen by God forgiving your unrighteousness. You have it where you are made righteous by being righteous. That is the very false gospel that Paul condemns.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

And if you don’t want to pay the price? What then? No difference?

If that refusal to pay the price of discipleship is because a person has gone back to unbelief then one of two things is true:

To the Reformist, it shows that person was never justified/saved to begin with.

To the Non-Reformist, that person loses the benefit of Christ's sacrifice and, therefore, loses the justification they had while they were a believer.

Take your pick. But one thing's for sure, that person is not going to be saved from the wrath of God when Jesus returns.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

And can you stop beating that dead horse of works for justification?

No, because you say you have to first act righteously in order to be made righteous.

I realize a fundamental problem here is you can't see that what you believe is nothing more than the works gospel that Paul condemns.

NOTHING you can do MAKES you righteous. ONLY having your sins forgiven makes you righteous. That's what makes justification free. It is an act of God's grace given to you for free when you receive the forgiveness of your sins by faith.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Please find a verse that promises”freely received” with no requirements whatsoever? I did a search and got no hits.

Romans 3:23-24
23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

You are justified freely by the grace of God's forgiveness. You aren't justified by doing something righteous. There is no power in doing righteous things to make yourself righteous. That can ONLY happen by having your unrighteousness forgiven. That is what makes justification FREE.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What a silly answer! Of course it’s not NECESSARY. But if one wants to, that’s the theology to have. You can do as you want and feel
assured from your pastor you’re going to heaven. Sin as you please.

You edited out “freely by his grace.” Changes it.

You don’t believe that now do you? You you obey Him 24/7? If not, do you tell yourself you’re not yet justified? Do you tell others the same?

No scripture supports this measuring system. And besides, now justification has BIG requirements and is anything but free. It’s more expensive than what Jesus taught. You’ve shot down your whole position putting these strings in being justified.

Just because obedience is the sign of being justified in Christ doesn't mean being justified is accomplished by being obedient.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

No scripture supports this measuring system.

Here's the metric you say is not supported in scripture.

Hebrews 6:9-10
9...we are convinced of better things in your case—things that accompany salvation. 10For God is not unjust. He will not forget your work and the love you have shown for His name as you have ministered to the saints and continue to do so.

When you have that which accompanies salvation that shows you have salvation.

And again, this happens BECAUSE you are already saved, not so you can be saved.