Why do feel we have to market salvation as free? What are we really appealing to in a man?

[Jethro Bodine]

The verse was Ephesians 2:8. I didn’t ask where “free” appears anywhere in the Bible.

I honestly thought my post from this morning made it clear to you what it means to be justified (declared righteous) for nothing as a gift of God's grace received through faith in God's forgiveness. I showed you the verses that tell us about this free gift of righteousness. The Bible plainly says righteousness is freely given, using the very word 'freely'.

Justified people are saved people. It is enduring in faith that will cost you this life, and not for the purpose of providing the work for which God owes you redemption and entrance into the kingdom of God, as you may be suggesting, but rather for the purpose of continuing in the faith through which one is, and remains freely justified.

Do you understand all this? Do you agree with all this?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Those who prefer to tell themselves God just gives to them and its all free,

Justification is what God freely gives. Romans 3:24, Romans 5:15-17. It is received as a free gift of God's grace through faith, not through works. And everyone who receives this gift is saved.

It is enduring in the faith that justifies that will cost you everything. It's the price you pay for enduring in faith, not a price you must pay to make God indebted to save you as a matter wages earned.

 

[Tenchi]

We come to Christ as spiritually bankrupt, we have nothing to offer him.

Dorothy Mae wrote:

"Again nonsense. He wants our lives."

Does a perfect God want anything? Certainly, He needs nothing. Why would He want our lives? Because He thinks them valuable? I'm not so sure about that. He offers to us Himself in exchange for our rotten lives because He is a loving God, not because He just has to have our lives. If no one ever gave their lives over to Him, God would not be diminished one iota. His desire for our lives arises, then, from His loving nature, not from anything in us that is worthy of His offer of redemption and fellowship. I think this is what Robert might have been saying.

We come to receive of him. He hears our cry and freely gives us his salvation and eternal life, it cost us nothing, but it cost him everything.

Dorothy Mae wrote:

"No, Jesus said it will cost us everything."

Since Jesus is our Salvation and he gives himself to us in exchange for our sinful lives controlled by our carnal "old man," what we give up in the exchange is more than compensated for by what we receive in Christ. He is the infinite God-Man, dwelling within us in the Person of the Holy Spirit and imparting to us all that we can possess of him. We don't lose out in this exchange.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Dorothy Mae wrote:

"Again nonsense. He wants our lives."

Does a perfect God want anything? Certainly, He needs nothing. Why would He want our lives? Because He thinks them valuable? I'm not so sure about that. He offers to us Himself in exchange for our rotten lives because He is a loving God, not because He just has to have our lives. If no one ever gave their lives over to Him, God would not be diminished one iota. His desire for our lives arises, then, from His loving nature, not from anything in us that is worthy of His offer of redemption and fellowship. I think this is what Robert might have been saying.


Dorothy Mae wrote:

"No, Jesus said it will cost us everything."

Since Jesus is our Salvation and he gives himself to us in exchange for our sinful lives controlled by our carnal "old man," what we give up in the exchange is more than compensated for by what we receive in Christ. He is the infinite God-Man, dwelling within us in the Person of the Holy Spirit and imparting to us all that we can possess of him. We don't lose out in this exchange.

I can certainly see why you have this view. It pretty much matches what seems to be along the modern preaching themes, what you get out of God. How could you but think as you do?

There might be some though, who have a love in them for God Himself, not just what they got from Him. There might be some who read Isaiah where God was asking who He could send to accomplish a task He wanted done and the man who loved God cried out, “Here am I. Send me!”

I’ll give an example out of my life. I was visiting a missions organization and watched their history of missions film. I was so moved I fervently asked God to send me. A few years later I found myself in the third world having been incorrectly informed as to the type of sleeping bag I needed. Most people probably don’t know that you can sleep if you’re hungry but not if you’re cold. I wasn’t sleeping from the cold.

So I complained to God about it.

He said (and this is a direct quote), “You asked to send you. I sent you.”
“Ok, God. If I have to suffer cold to do your will, I accept that.”

I was giving something to God and the memory is very sweet. As a side note, later a couple who were invited to sleep in a local’s house, gave me their sleeping bags and I wasn’t cold anymore. But I had surrendered the right to be warm at night. I gave Him something He could not buy. I would that those who long to give instead of just take know it’s possible and more delightful in any case.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Justification is what God freely gives. Romans 3:24, Romans 5:15-17. It is received as a free gift of God's grace through faith, not through works. And everyone who receives this gift is saved.

It is enduring in the faith that justifies that will cost you everything. It's the price you pay for enduring in faith, not a price you must pay to make God indebted to save you as a matter wages earned.

You have a strange way of looking at the matter. Why do you think acting in a certain manner pleasing to another makes them indebted to you? Why do you think solely in terms of wages? There are other considerations besides owing and being owed.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I honestly thought my post from this morning made it clear to you what it means to be justified (declared righteous) for nothing as a gift of God's grace received through faith in God's forgiveness. I showed you the verses that tell us about this free gift of righteousness. The Bible plainly says righteousness is freely given, using the very word 'freely'.

Justified people are saved people. It is enduring in faith that will cost you this life, and not for the purpose of providing the work for which God owes you redemption and entrance into the kingdom of God, as you may be suggesting, but rather for the purpose of continuing in the faith through which one is, and remains freely justified.

Do you understand all this? Do you agree with all this?

You are totally missing the whole purpose and that is not that you get to go to heaven or that you can look into the mirror and tell yourself a justified by the free gift so you needs do nothing for anyone but yourself and are still perfectly righteous man looks back at you.

The purpose of Christ coming was so that we can walk humbly through life loving God and man, forgiving and being likewise forgiven.

But I have a question. After Christmas is over, do you tell everyone about how free the presents you got were? Would you like it if your parents or wife or children constantly talked about how the presents they got from you were freely given and costs them nothing?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You are totally missing the whole purpose and that is not that you get to go to heaven or that you can look into the mirror and tell yourself a justified by the free gift so you needs do nothing for anyone but yourself and are still perfectly righteous man looks back at you.

We are given the righteousness of God (for free) so that we can live righteously.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

We are given the righteousness of God (for free) so that we can live righteously.

Living righteously will cost plenty.

Do you tell your wife you’re grateful that she loves you without you having to do a thing or pay anything? Her loving you is FREE, and that’s great?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You have a strange way of looking at the matter. Why do you think acting in a certain manner pleasing to another makes them indebted to you? Why do you think solely in terms of wages?

Because of this maybe?

Romans 4:4-5
4Now the wages of the worker are not credited as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness.

There are other considerations besides owing and being owed.

Not when it comes to the matter of justification.

Justification is not given by God to you as payment he owes you for the things you've done. It's given as a free gift when you have faith in Jesus. (See the scriptural reference posted above).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Living righteously will cost plenty.

Yes. But getting the righteousness through which you live righteously costs NOTHING. It's a free gift of God's grace.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Do you tell your wife you’re grateful that she loves you without you having to do a thing or pay anything? Her loving you is FREE, and that’s great?

Yes, that would be great!
Conditional love is selfish and wicked.
What a burden it is to have to always be living up to a person's selfish standards and demands before they can love you. But God loved us even while we were still in our sins.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Well then, I guess I need to start getting drunk, smoking weed, and sexting other women to be that desirable husband.

No thanks. I'm sticking with Christ on this one.

None of that is loving her. None. She does eat, right? She does have needs, right? Adultery is biblical grounds for divorce, you know. If she’s a Gomar type, there’s likely no hope. I’m very sorry you’re in that situation. Must be painful.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Yes. But getting the righteousness through which you live righteously costs NOTHING. It's a free gift of God's grace.

If one has ever refused the sin they desired, struggled and won the victory over, they know it’s not free.

Grace, btw, is also not free in one sense. Grace is given to those who humble themselves. God refuses to give grace to the proud. Doesn’t mean it’s earned. Doesn’t mean it’s wages. Does mean we have a necessary part to play.

God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble. Humility doesn’t BUY grace but without it, you won’t get any.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The purpose of Christ coming was so that we can walk humbly through life loving God and man, forgiving and being likewise forgiven.

It's 'forgiving BECAUSE we have been forgiven'.

Ephesians 4:32
32Be kind and tenderhearted to one another, forgiving each other just as in Christ God forgave you.

Colossians 3:13
13Bear with one another and forgive any complaint you may have against someone else. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.

You can tell who has been forgiven and who has not been forgiven by if they forgive.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Yes, that would be great!
Conditional love is selfish and wicked.
What a burden it is to have to always be living up to a person's selfish standards and demands before they can love you. But God loved us even while we were still in our sins.

I asked if you tell her this. Surly you didn’t pay her to love you. So her love was free. Do you tell
her how wonderful it was that you didn’t pay anything for it?

Of course you don’t because she’s be insulted. Sounds like you just take and don’t give.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If one has ever refused the sin they desired, struggled and won the victory over, they know it’s not free.

If one has ever not been able to stop sinning they know it is free!

The righteousness through which a person lives righteously is a free gift so that no one can boast.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Grace, btw, is also not free in one sense. Grace is given to those who humble themselves. God refuses to give grace to the proud. Doesn’t mean it’s earned. Doesn’t mean it’s wages. Does mean we have a necessary part to play.

God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble. Humility doesn’t BUY grace but without it, you won’t get any.

You're not getting it.
God's declaration of righteousness is free because you don't first live righteously to get it. People who think they become righteous in God's sight by doing righteous things are living the very works gospel condemned in scripture.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Humility doesn’t BUY grace but without it, you won’t get any.

No, that's not the argument. The correct argument is 'humility doesn't buy you a declaration of righteousness'. Having your sins forgiven through faith in Christ's blood, and being given the righteousness of God in place of your unrighteousness is the ONLY way a person can be declared righteous (justified) in God's sight. A person will NEVER be justified (made righteous) by doing works of righteousness. A person does not become forgiven by forgiving others. A person forgives others because they have received the righteousness of God through the forgiveness of their sin.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

It's 'forgiving BECAUSE we have been forgiven'.

Ephesians 4:32
32Be kind and tenderhearted to one another, forgiving each other just as in Christ God forgave you.

Colossians 3:13
13Bear with one another and forgive any complaint you may have against someone else. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.

You can tell who has been forgiven and who has not been forgiven by if they forgive.

We’ve been over this. You don’t really believe it because if believers don’t automatically forgive as you describe above, you don’t tell them that they obviously aren’t forgiven, but REMIND them that they need to automatically forgive. They forgot they automatically forgive but you remind them.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I asked if you tell her this. Surly you didn’t pay her to love you.

I explained that would require me to sin in order for her to love me.

So her love was free. Do you tell
her how wonderful it was that you didn’t pay anything for it?

Her love is not free. It requires things of me that I can not pay because I am a Christian.

Of course you don’t because she’s be insulted.

It's not insulting to tell someone how wonderful it is that you didn't pay anything for their love. I would be flattered if someone told me how wonderful it is that I love them unconditionally, because that is how God loves.