Why do feel we have to market salvation as free? What are we really appealing to in a man?

[Dorothy Mae]

Just because obedience is the sign of being justified in Christ doesn't mean being justified is accomplished by being obedient.

You gonna beat that dead horse aren't you? But in your view, failure to obey means a man IS NOT JUSTIFIED. That is what you said. So, ergo, justification is not free because if a man is not obedient he is not justified.

Your theology forces you into corners, my friend.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Here's the metric you say is not supported in scripture.

Hebrews 6:9-10
9...we are convinced of better things in your case—things that accompany salvation. 10For God is not unjust. He will not forget your work and the love you have shown for His name as you have ministered to the saints and continue to do so.

When you have that which accompanies salvation that shows you have salvation.

And again, this happens BECAUSE you are already saved, not so you can be saved.

And if you do not have the works, in your view, you are NOT JUSTIFIED....if that is not works salvation, what is? No works = not saved......

Your theology forces you into corners. It is because it 1) matches neither real life nor the scriptures and 2) it is just too simple.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Jethro Bodine, stop beating that dead horse. NO ONE is saying you have to do works to be saved. No one. Stop telling us what we already agreed upon. I know that is a LOT easier than talking about the fact that there are requirements for salvation that you do not want to face so you pick on the dead horse. It is a LOT easier to talk about the things you need not do, I know. But if that leads to neglecting the bits that you MUST do, it is dangerous. Do you know what you MUST do? Hint: they are not WORKS but they are nevertheless required and no, God is not doing them for us.

 

[Free]

I did a search in the Bible on "free salvation" and "salvation is free" and got no hits whatsoever.

That's similar to what JWs do when they search for "Trinity" in the Bible but don't find it. It doesn't mean that the concept is there. In this case, it is stated in other ways, as I and others have very clearly shown. You didn't even address these verses which I posted in your other thread on this topic:

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (ESV)

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. (ESV)

2Ti 1:9 who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began, (ESV)

Tit 3:4 But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared,
Tit 3:5 he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,
Tit 3:6 whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
Tit 3:7 so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (ESV)

Salvation is a free gift from God; there is absolutely nothing we can do to merit salvation. To say otherwise is to go against Scripture. But, yes, saying it is free is only part of the message. People still need to be told that although salvation is free, we are to be willing to give even our lives for the gospel. These are two sides of the same coin.

But there are still a couple of reasons why that cost isn't as costly as you are making it out to be. Firstly, it is still God that works in us and through us, if we let him. It is he that sustains and sanctifies us, and he will bring the work he started in us to completion. Secondly, how costly is it compared to eternal life? It is relatively costly in terms of our temporary life, but we are still to count it all joy since God uses it to make us into he wants us to be. Thirdly, how costly is it compared to not being saved in the end? The cost is nothing in comparison.

Free and others, the word "free" is most often in terms of men being free or freed. I did get Tenchi to admit that while that none of the conditions require works for salvation (a position no one here takes so a straw man) he could not refuse the condition of repentance for salvation. Logically if there are any conditions at all, salvation is not free. Dear fellow believers, there is more to life that work and earning. There are benefits for choices made that might involve effort, but the consequences are called consequents and not wages or earnings or deserved because they are none of those.

Yet, as I and others have shown, justification is free. What you don't seem to understand is that it is entirely a work of God upon us by his grace--from the wooing of our hearts, to bringing us to repent, to justifying us, to sanctifying us, to bringing us to final salvation. Yes, there are things we have to do in the process, but none of it can be done apart from the work of the Holy Spirit in us.

A typical one is grace. I know the popular (and false) theology is grace is unmerited favor.

It is a true definition. While it doesn't cover all uses of "grace" in the NT, since some are showing the practical outworking of God's grace in our lives, it is the basis of all uses.

Well, on the one hand it is naturally not merited same as Christmas presents are never merited. It is granted or given same as Christmas presents.

Why are you comparing Christmas presents to God's grace? We generally give Christmas presents to those we know, even more so to those we love or have some sort of good relationship with. So, there really is some sort of merit, since we generally don't give gifts to those we don't know or who have fallen out of favor.

However, while we were yet sinners God sent his Son to die for us (Romans 5:6-8).

HOWEVER, it is not given without any reference to our choices. the Bible says clearly in both OT and NT that "God opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble." So those who humble themselves receive grace. Is it earned? NO. But he does not give grace to the proud. One can accept this and adjust one's view or one can insist grace comes totally unrelated to our choices and wonder why we do not have grace flowing to will and to do His will in a satisfactory manner.

You are using just one use of "grace" to justify your incorrect meaning of it. You have to look at all it's uses and then come to a conclusion.

Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
Rom 3:24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
Rom 3:25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.
Rom 3:26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Rom 3:27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. (ESV)

Our boasting is excluded because justification by grace is a free gift (see also Eph 2:8-9 above).

Rom 5:15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.
Rom 5:16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification.
Rom 5:17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. (ESV)

"Free gift" repeated several times in relation to the giving of justification and righteousness, brought by grace.

Rom 11:5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.
Rom 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace. (ESV)

There is nothing we can do to earn grace, otherwise it is by works and "grace would no longer be grace."

Jethro Bodine, stop beating that dead horse. NO ONE is saying you have to do works to be saved. No one. Stop telling us what we already agreed upon.

The problem is, you may agree that our works don't save us, but if justification isn't free, then there is no other option than that our works save us.

 

[Tenchi]

I did get @Tenchi to admit that while that none of the conditions require works for salvation (a position no one here takes so a straw man) he could not refuse the condition of repentance for salvation.

Um, I did not offer a Strawman, but addressed a belief concerning salvation that is relatively common in my experience among believers. That no one in this thread holds to a works-salvation soteriology doesn't mean addressing it as I did amounts to Strawman arguing. In your opinion, works-salvation might be somewhat off-topic, but I offered no cartoonish representation of the view, which is what a Strawman argument does.

I'm also puzzled by your language. What do you mean you "got me to admit" and "he could not refuse"? You make it sound as though you had to wrest me around to an acknowledgement of the things I've supported in this thread. No such thing happened. I wasn't compelled by your arguments, but simply acknowledged what Scripture indicates.

Logically if there are any conditions at all, salvation is not free.

As I said from the start, being born-again is an exchange. But salvation itself, the actual means by which we are saved (ie. the atoning work of Christ at Calvary), we can do nothing but receive by faith. We cannot earn it, or add to it, or make it more satisfactory to God by our righteous living.

A typical one is grace. I know the popular (and false) theology is grace is unmerited favor.

Just a note: The term "grace" in Scripture is not monolithic in its meaning. "Grace" (charis in the Greek) refers to a number of things: unmerited favor, kindness, ability (or power), beauty, to be in favor with, liberality, etc.

God extends grace to all in the Person of His Son, in whom anyone may trust and find salvation (John 1:12; Romans 10:13). God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9). And so, God, who would have all men to be saved, graciously extends salvation to the whole world (1 Timothy 2:4; John 3:16). Just as rain and sunshine fall on the just and the unjust, the grace of God revealed in Jesus Christ, the Savior, is offered to anyone who would receive it. In this sense, God's grace is "free," being offered to all regardless of their having done anything to deserve it.

 

[Christ_empowered]

Historically the shift towards make a decision for Christ now began in earnest during the second great awakening in the USA mid 1800s. The first one was in the 18th century when Calvinism was the dominant form of Protestantism in the USA .
I don’t know the story for other nations sorry.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

But in your view, failure to obey means a man IS NOT JUSTIFIED. That is what you said. So, ergo, justification is not free because if a man is not obedient he is not justified.

No.
I explained this to you.
Just because the obedience of a changed life is the evidence of being justified in Christ doesn't mean you are justified by that obedience.

Righteous obedience doesn't make you righteous. The forgiveness of God received by faith does. The only way to be made righteous is to have your unrighteousness forgiven. Doing righteous things does not make you righteous. That is the very works gospel condemned in scripture.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

And if you do not have the works, in your view, you are NOT JUSTIFIED....if that is not works salvation, what is? No works = not saved......

If you do not have a changed life in the ever increasing traits of the Spirit (2 Peter 1:8-11) then you show that you are unchanged (1 John 3:10). You are not justified/saved in Christ. You are a child of the devil. That does not mean you have failed to do righteous things to be made righteous. It means you don't have the forgiveness of God applied to your life in justification/salvation.

Your theology forces you into corners. It is because it 1) matches neither real life nor the scriptures and 2) it is just too simple.

Read the passages I posted above. Read all the scripture I've been posting!

And apparently being made right with God by simply being forgiven by God is indeed just too simple for some to accept. But that is exactly what the Bible says. Justification is FREELY given to a person through God's grace of redemption (the forgiveness of sin - Ephesians 1:7).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

And if you do not have the works, in your view, you are NOT JUSTIFIED....if that is not works salvation, what is?

Works salvation is you thinking you have to do righteous things in order to be made righteous (justified).

 

[Edward]

As I've been saying, faith is the requirement to be justified, not works.

Right, but Faith without works is a dead Faith.

 

[Christ_empowered]

Faith with no signs of change falls under false conversion.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

@Jethro Bodine, stop beating that dead horse. NO ONE is saying you have to do works to be saved.

Tell us what the 'do nothing' Christians that you've been railing against aren't doing that they must do in order to be saved.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Right, but Faith without works is a dead Faith.

She's been firmly resisting that faith is signified by obedience.

 

[Christ_empowered]

Some big name preachers had the carnal Christian idea…

That one can be saved and escape hell but not change. Stanley…the older one…maybe?

I don’t see how that’s at all supported by Scripture but..???

 

[Edward]

Righteous obedience doesn't make you righteous. The forgiveness of God received by faith does. The only way to be made righteous is to have your unrighteousness forgiven. Doing righteous things does not make you righteous. That is the very works gospel condemned in scripture.

She's been firmly resisting that faith is signified by obedience.

I agree, faith is signified by obedience but will not make you righteous. That's done by faith through grace. Rightepus obedience and righteous deeds are rewarded by the Lord both in Heaven and in this life on earth.

Scripture says our righteous deeds are our Heavenly linens and garments in Heaven.

 

[jerry63935]

alls away from the faith, they’re no longer justified.

curious can you pin point the exact time by using scripture they are no longer justified ?

 

[jerry63935]

That one can be saved and escape hell but not change. Stanley…the older one…maybe?

nope not even the eternal security preachers teach that. especially charles stanley ..

 

[Edward]

It's all about our spiritual development. Call it our spiritual evolution if you want.

We woke up in a material world and the more we learned about the material the less we knew about the spiritual world, so here we was and, now the truth is we find out, that the spiritual world is the real world. Now we have to basically become children again and learn how a spiritual being lives.

So we're in a big classroom. Experience is the best teacher. and the course is so tough that not many will pass. But the blood of Christ is so strong that even more shall be saved. And our prayers are so strong that even more will be saved. Such is God's unending mercy. Justification for our repentance of sins is done by faith through grace. Nothing else a man can do will buy him justification.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

curious can you pin point the exact time by using scripture they are no longer justified ?

Jesus said many will fall away from the faith themselves and go so far as to betray those who still believe. Do you think they were still justified?

Do you want to know how far into falling away one can go before the TIME is reached when they aren’t IN the faith anymore? Does knowing the hour change anything?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

nope not even the eternal security preachers teach that. especially charles stanley ..

Actually he did and I’ve heard the quotes but I’m not sure he still does. In any case there’s a rule here forbidding discussing that.