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Why I can't believe in rapture theory

Rev 9:1-12 is not Satan, but an angel sent by God.. refer to my post #172
@ for His glory

Can't agree

Luke 10:18 "And He said unto them, "I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven."

Revelation 9:1 "And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit [pit of the abyss]."
 
banded butterfly said:
It was my intention that the scripture would speak for itself in answering the doubt concerning the rapture as denoted in the OP. Rapture is not a theory, it is a scriptural fact. I hope that assists your understanding.
Blessings,
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There is no doubt in my mind about the Rapture.

It happens at the coming of the Lord. :amen

There are two other significant things that also happen at His coming.


15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17


1.] The resurrection of the dead in Christ occurs at the coming of the Lord, before the rapture.
  • And the dead in Christ will rise first. v. 16
2.] Just after the resurrection of the dead in Christ, the rapture will occur at the coming of the Lord, whereby both the living and dead in Christ, will be caught up together to be with the Lord in the air.
  • Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. v.17
3.] The third fact about the coming of the Lord, is that the antichrist will be destroyed, by the brightness of His coming.


  • Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8

...the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.


The 3 major things that occur at His coming:

  1. The Resurrection of the dead in Christ.
  2. The Rapture.
  3. The destruction of the antichrist.



JLB
 
n2thelight said:
Rev 9:1-12 is not Satan, but an angel sent by God.. refer to my post #172
@ for His glory

Can't agree

Luke 10:18 "And He said unto them, "I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven."

Revelation 9:1 "And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit [pit of the abyss]."
Click to expand...
REV 9:11
And they had ua king over them, which is athe angel of dthe bottomless pit, whose name vin the Hebrew tongue is wAbaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name ||xApollyon. KJV

YES Satan was given the key to open the abyss and let loose the Angel who once was and at that time will be again for a short period then go to his destruction as the beast and satan and all their armies visible and invisible are defeated by Jesus and hIs armies at the great battle of God almighty. REV 16:15

Anyway this thread has moved far from a pretrib rapture which we agree isn't found in scripture.
 
n2thelight said:
rapture is deception it's not one verse in ALL of scripture that says Christ comes to take us to Heaven
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This is true. Atheists are not to ascend with the Lord of the Christians during the rapture.
 
banded butterfly said:
This is true. Atheists are not to ascend with the Lord of the Christians during the rapture.
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Haven't you read about a bodily resurrection on the last day? IS that on earth or heaven? Those left alive on that day are caught up to be clothed with immortality as mortal flesh and blood can't inherit the eternal Kingdom God promised to those that Love Him. They need new bodies not of the dust of the earth too don't they? Bodies that don't age and die.
 
Randy said:
Haven't you read about a bodily resurrection on the last day? IS that on earth or heaven? Those left alive on that day are caught up to be clothed with immortality as mortal flesh and blood can't inherit the eternal Kingdom God promised to those that Love Him. They need new bodies not of the dust of the earth too don't they? Bodies that don't age and die.
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I do believe you're quoting the wrong person here brother. n2thelight is the member that claims the Rapture is a deception.
 
Randy said:
Anyway this thread has moved far from a pretrib rapture which we agree isn't found in scripture.
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Personally, I am glad it proven that there is no pre-tribulation rapture in Scripture. My deep fryer broke down the other day, which is tribulation and I was not raptured before it happened. If true believers did in fact get raptured before tribulation then my still being here now that my deep fryer is broke would have been strong evidence I am in a bad way. Phew, so I am okay.

Watching Thomas
 
Watching Thomas said:
Personally, I am glad it proven that there is no pre-tribulation rapture in Scripture. My deep fryer broke down the other day, which is tribulation and I was not raptured before it happened. If true believers did in fact get raptured before tribulation then my still being here now that my deep fryer is broke would have been strong evidence I am in a bad way. Phew, so I am okay.

Watching Thomas
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A tribulation so great no one would survive unless the LORD cut short those days.
 
n2thelight said:
Rev 9:1-12 is not Satan, but an angel sent by God.. refer to my post #172
@ for His glory

Can't agree

Luke 10:18 "And He said unto them, "I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven."

Revelation 9:1 "And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit [pit of the abyss]."
Click to expand...
To you andRandy
n2thelight said:
Rev 9:1-12 is not Satan, but an angel sent by God.. refer to my post #172
@ for His glory

Can't agree

Luke 10:18 "And He said unto them, "I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven."

Revelation 9:1 "And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit [pit of the abyss]."
Click to expand...

Luke 10:18 speaks of Satan as lightning, not a star. Why would God use Satan to open the bottomless pit to send out destruction on those of disobedience? Satan only tries to attack those who are of God.

Apollyon is an angel of God in whom God uses as a destroyer in Gods plan of tormenting those of disobedience before we are caught up to be with Christ when He returns as in hopes that the torment will bring those of disobedience to repent and turn back to God. He is an angel of God that He uses throughout the OT and here in vs. 1, 11 to bring about Gods commands when it comes to the destruction of people of disobedience, Exodus 12:23; 2Kings 6:14-18; Proverbs 15:11, 12; Jeremiah 4:7; Daniel 10:13; 1 Corinthians 10:10.
 
for_his_glory said:
To you andRandy


Luke 10:18 speaks of Satan as lightning, not a star. Why would God use Satan to open the bottomless pit to send out destruction on those of disobedience? Satan only tries to attack those who are of God.

Apollyon is an angel of God in whom God uses as a destroyer in Gods plan of tormenting those of disobedience before we are caught up to be with Christ when He returns as in hopes that the torment will bring those of disobedience to repent and turn back to God. He is an angel of God that He uses throughout the OT and here in vs. 1, 11 to bring about Gods commands when it comes to the destruction of people of disobedience, Exodus 12:23; 2Kings 6:14-18; Proverbs 15:11, 12; Jeremiah 4:7; Daniel 10:13; 1 Corinthians 10:10.
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Jesus speaks of Satan as a living being "The father of lies" a murderer from the beginning. How can I answer why God uses Satan to open the bottomless pit as God does all that HE is pleased to do. What I can answers is that it is written so. WHY wouldn't what God gave be truth? As GOD does not lie. NOR does God tempt people to do evil. Satan tempts people to do evil and leads the whole world astray. AND People are tempted by their own evil desires. Apollyon was imprisioned and God is a just God so if Apollyon was imprisoned it was because of sin. THE beast will curse GOD as is written below. THE angels who remained faithful to God would never do so.
Rev 13 nkjv
And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear. 10 He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
 
Watching Thomas said:
Personally, I am glad it proven that there is no pre-tribulation rapture in Scripture. My deep fryer broke down the other day, which is tribulation and I was not raptured before it happened. If true believers did in fact get raptured before tribulation then my still being here now that my deep fryer is broke would have been strong evidence I am in a bad way. Phew, so I am okay.

Watching Thomas
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Our religion will be outlawed by the beast's false prophet in those final days and many will refuse to bow down and worship the beast. AS we read part of those who are in the 1st resurrection were beheaded for their faith in Jesus. In those days blessed are those who die in the Lord for so great shall the tribulation be.
REV 14:13 NIV Then I heard a voice from heaven say, "Write this: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on." "Yes," says the Spirit, "they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them."
 
Randy said:
Jesus speaks of Satan as a living being "The father of lies" a murderer from the beginning. How can I answer why God uses Satan to open the bottomless pit as God does all that HE is pleased to do. What I can answers is that it is written so. WHY wouldn't what God gave be truth? As GOD does not lie. NOR does God tempt people to do evil. Satan tempts people to do evil and leads the whole world astray. AND People are tempted by their own evil desires. Apollyon was imprisioned and God is a just God so if Apollyon was imprisoned it was because of sin. THE beast will curse GOD as is written below. THE angels who remained faithful to God would never do so.
Rev 13 nkjv
And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear. 10 He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
Click to expand...
Apollyon was not imprisoned, but kept there for Gods purpose just like the destroyer in Exodus 12:23 that God used to kill the Egyptians. This is how I see it. I could be wrong, but this is what I believe.
 
Randy said:
A tribulation so great no one would survive unless the LORD cut short those days.
Click to expand...

Great, at least one of you pre-trib folks is trying to at least quote a part of a scripture!

Amen.

The Lord does cut short those days by His coming.

“But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

20 And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days.21 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or, ‘Look, He is there!’ do not believe it. 22 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.23 But take heed; see, I have told you all things beforehand. 24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. Mark 13:20-27


That should end doubt as to His coming, in relation to the tribulation.


After the tribulation... they will see Him coming.


Three major things happen at His coming:

  1. The resurrection of the dead in Christ
  2. The rapture of those who are alive and remain
  3. The destruction of the antichrist.

And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. Mark 13:27

and again

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

and again

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8


Now, if one of you pre-trib folks would please explain how you believe the antichrist is destroyed and the rapture of the church both occur before the tribulation?



JLB
 
for_his_glory said:
Randy, I do not object to everything you post, just certain things I do not agree with. Like who the two beast represent and who the two witnesses are. I believe the events from the sounding of the seventh trumpet in Rev 11:15 where the Kingdoms of this world become the Kingdoms of the Lord clear through that of Christ return after the seven vial judgements and mystery Babylon is exposed and destroyed will come quicker than we think.

I also believe from the sounding of the seventh trumpet is the beginning of the 42 months (1260 days) that includes everything from Rev Chapter 11-19 ending with the beast and false prophet being cast into the lake of fire and the remnant being all those who have bowed down and worshipped the beast taking its mark in Rev 19 puts an end to all abominations in the world or in other words Jesus makes an end to all sin.
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I believe from the sounding of the 5th trump to the last trump( 7th). is the reign of the beast and is the same period of time the bowl judgments take place. Revelation 16:10
 
It does set up the timing for those who will live in fear during Gods great wrath being poured out as they will bow down to the beast and take his mark as he promises peace, safety and provisions.

BTW, I will be gone for a few weeks as I am having hip replacement tomorrow, but will be back when I can as I have enjoyed our conversations here as you have been very pleasant to talk to. God bless
 
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