Why I cringe when people say it's all about choice.

[childeye]

Yeah, every time murder is committed, they were forced to do it.. there was no choice in the matter..
Every time adultery is committed, they were forced to do it.. there was no choice in the matter..
Every time somebody steals something.. they're forced to do it.. there's never a choice..

I think that it's sad that people actually believe this nonsense.

Peace Eventide, and take it easy. I'm not against you. I take issue that you cut off my statement in the middle portraying it as such, I am saying men are forced to sin, but leaving out, because of such vanity that thinks men make themselves righteous and unrighteous according to their free choice.This thread is all about saying that God chooses the lowly to put to nought the prudent and wise. It only stands to reason that it would be nonsense to some and not to others. I'm not saying it's to your fault you believe this way nor to my credit I believe that way.

But consider, you say you sin and are also now saying you sin willingly, and you want to be a sinner with all power to be able to not do so at your discretion? You mention murder, and Christ was murdered and so was Stephen. Yet Jesus said, forgive them Father they know not what they do, and Steven said of his murderers, don't lay this upon their charge. And Saul was one of those murderers who became a great Apostle. Yet you say they had a choice not to murder, which can only place blame, making you contrary to the actual innocent victims who are asking for mercy upon their killers. Is that nonsense? Is there no middle ground here? Does scripture not say the wise shopkeeper carries both some of the Old and some of the New? I can argue both, but at the end of all contemplation, the Old is just a shadow of the New.

1 Corinthians 2:7-8

King James Version (KJV)


7But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

Romans 16:25-27

King James Version (KJV)


25Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: 27To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

 

[childeye]

Childeye

Galatians 5:
14 For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
15 But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.
16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.
(NASB)

If you can’t see it here, you will see it nowhere.

As you surmised, the scripture you provide only applies to freewill depending upon definitions of terms. You would say there are two paths presented here from which to choose. I understand that completely and I do not deny that. I would use the very same scriptures to point out men are not free in their wills to choose either path, and then back and forth according to their freewill. There are powers at play that are dominions of darkness and Light, and I don't know if you get that. I actually believe scripture is purposely written that way. So that only God can reveal the secrets therein.

James 4:7 Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. (NASB)

Consider that in it’s context. You have a choice whether or not to let Satan deceive you. There’s nothing more I can say, that the bible itself hasn’t already said before me.

Yes the choice to not let Satan deceive me lies in submitting to God. My freewill has been diminished to a choice between admitting only God's Truth can save me from deceit, but if I choose the devil I am yet deceived to choose to be deceived. But if I choose God's Truth it is the Truth that caused me to choose the Truth. King Agrippa said to Paul, "You almost persuade me". How much more persuasion did he need before he was persuaded? So God called all the beggars and cripples because everyone else was too busy to come to His sons wedding. How did God know that due to their free choice, the cripples and beggars didn't have much better things to do?

Forgive me. I was a fool to have said anything at all on this thread. You’ve said nothing new here. And neither have I. I’m currently more concerned with far more important matters than your determination to believe in determinism. If you want to think that’s a lack of love on my part, I can only say that too is just semantics. All depends on how love is defined. And by the indications of what has been said about the subject of love on this forum, it can’t be defined in a way that all concerned will agree. So all I can say about that is, walk by the Spirit and it will be experienced. Experienced in how you expresses it. And you may even be able to recognize and receive it when others express it toward you.

Thanks FC. Contrary to what you think, I feel you have spoken quite well and have said many worthwhile things. You are correct that Love is experienced in the doing of it, not the thinking about doing it. I'm only saying we wouldn't even think about it, if not for God.
Lighten up FC, you always pose the questions at the point and this is a good thing.

I don't sense any lack of love in you. You care enough to seek to correct me. I love you too. I would only ask that you receive me likewise. We agree more than you know. I am only concerned with determinism enough to seek to know where sin comes from and where Love comes from. To that end I am of the conclusion that God is Love and He dwells in us by faith in Him as our Creator, and by Grace as He bestows His Spirit upon us. And sin is caused by separation from God accordingly. But if I believe the will is free to choose to believe otherwise, I would in effect be heading on the path to being an Atheist.

But You say you have somethiing more important to deal with while, I could think of nothing more important. If I were to guess, you would say walking in it is more important than talking about it. Well said, even though I am resorting to speaking for you. I think scripture would back you up on that. But also do some in the body of Christ do what I am doing and are walking in Love. I am proclaiming those things that I have heard from God so as to bring forth true worship of Him. Even atheists believe in walking in Love, yet they will scorn those who believe in God as that Love.

Please don't think you have wasted your time on this thread with me. I believe that is the devil trying to discourage you. You have contributed well to me, have I not contributed anything to you? Steel sharpens steel it is said. I believe you are not the type that feel they are past learning anything.

 

[childeye]

GOD GAVE THEM OVER means that He allowed them to go their own way. He did not prevent them from doing what they wanted to do.

I supplied the connotations from an accurate Lexicon to preempt just such a conclusion as you have drawn. The word "gave" means to be made subject to. But for further proof I offer this.

The scripture says God gave them over to the will of the flesh. Since we are not excluded, that means us. I take issue with the claim He allows us to go our own way, since if we always have had a freewill, He never stopped us to begin with. So it means nothing to now say He gives us over to the lusts of the flesh, unless somehow He was preventing it in the first place. Moreover the scripture says we we became filled with all unrighteousness, which cannot be taken any other way but to mean we were'nt filled prior to that.

Now, speaking for myself, I sincerely and definitively do not want to be any of the following things,
29Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Also as is made apparrant, neither does Paul want to be any of these things as per what he describes here.
Romans 7:13-24

New International Version (NIV)


13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.
14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[a] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. 21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?

So I see here, that Paul is forced to do what he does not want to do because of sin dwelling in him. He wants to be good but he cannot be good in separation from God which is sin, because there is no good thing in His flesh.

In conclusion, unto His Glory, God does prevent us from becoming abominations, and He proved this by giving us over to the lusts our flesh to find that out. Lesson:
We should not take God's attributes as our own in vanity, so that it will always be unto His praise no matter how well or how little one has been endowed. So that the vanity of Satan who was endowed greater than others, will be destroyed.

James 1:13 NKJV

Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,†for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.

The above scripture is saying God is not testing any man with evil to see if a man will give in. That is a Satanic attribute that is based upon doubt in others.
Why would God tempt since He created everything and decalred it good? He is not tempted. He is not corrupt. Only we have become corrupt because we believed God was, when the serpent spoke out of his own deception and we believed it.

Yes, men freely choose to do evil and they freely choose to do good. All men make their own choices. God allows them to go their own way.

I have presented the Truth accurately. I do not believe any man wants to be filled with all wickedness according to the purity of my own heart. That includes you. I am preaching the same Gospel as Paul. But because men think they freely choose to be good or evil, they are lost in the vanity of their minds. For they deny God His glory taking it as their own and their hearts are then darkened in their ignorance.

Ephesians 4:17-18
King James Version (KJV)


17This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, 18Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

 

[childeye]

the only choice we have is to repent. we can turn over to god what we cant change.

sin has power but god son enable any man to come and be cleansed. the cure is being held out, take it and be free.childeye. that logic of no free will means that god made hitler and intended him to kill and yet damns him for that reason

Hitler was a vessel of bigotry filled with the lies of Satan. The Nazi's were quoting scripture as they conquered, and many were were so-called christians. I read his book MienKampf. He is damned already because flesh is only flesh and that is all he cared about. It counts for nothing and will not inherit the Kingdom of God. The reason you think the way you do, is because you hold to a premise that either men have freewills or God caused sin. It is the point of this thread to point out that the vanity that caused sin came by neither, but by circumstance of being created and taking the Creator for granted. Men do not see that the Spirit of God is Life and the flesh is nothing.

In such a scenario of vanity, what you see as the horror of the holocaust, is in the end the glory of the Jewish people when you forgive. Even as the horror of the cross of Christ is the glory of God's son, the evidence of divine Love in his willingly shed blood. Evil is not defeated by returning evil, and perfect Love casts out all fear. Satan needs you to hate Hitler so as to destroy you. Hence the saying, "I'll see you in hell". You must go there to see him there. But it is already finished upon the cross and those who die with Christ live forever and will not see hell. Christ has the keys to hell and death and vengeance belongs to God. Add your blood in the cup of Christ, for it is the blood of the saints who are his body, and Hitler will cease to exist in you.

I have told you before, I am not your equal. Your forgiveness far outweighs mine for I have not endured your suffering. But this is your great gift from God, that I see, and I don't think you do. So also it is my great pleasure to be one to persuade you to grasp hold of it and not let go. Only then will you see the devil clearly who seeks to rob it, so you can put him under your feet. It is your only way out of co-miserating with Hitler and all others that seek to extinguish God's Light in the world. As you said, there is only one choice, to repent. I pray you take hold of the cup of Christ with both hands when you partake, symbolizing that you will let go of your hatred, so as to not lose hold of Christ.

 

[Former Christian]

Childeye

I am only concerned with determinism enough to seek to know where sin comes from and where Love comes from. To that end I am of the conclusion that God is Love and He dwells in us by faith in Him as our Creator, and by Grace as He bestows His Spirit unto us. And sin is caused by separation from God accordingly.

Bible says no one is separate from God while yet in this life. Bible says God is the source of that which is of God and our flesh is the source of death that causes that which is ungodly. Some think Satan is there. But that is only a mask for what they don’t want to see is a part of themselves. Bible says that we are living souls that choose to follow godly things or things of death. Bible says we have a mind that is part of our own soul that is able to make such choices. Bible says Satan is out there in the world trying to coerce us to follow him. But that if we resist Satan, he will flee from us. He’s not looking for resisters, but for followers. No need to make things complicated to understand or to create new ways to understand, when God has in his grace given us the bible and his Spirit to make them so simple even children can understand. You only create your own problems that appear to you to be problems in semantics. And you judge others to be as semantically minded as yourself. Why do you think I offered a one worded post that said semantics? You complained about the length of your prior post, and what I said was a joke. A joke based on a well used word by yourself. A wasted joke I see, since all you did was to agree.

But if I believe the will is free to choose to believe otherwise, I would in effect be heading on the path to being an Atheist.

You’ll have to walk that path with someone else, as I ain’t ready to walk it just yet. And if you try too hard to NOT walk that path, you may find yourself on it for sure.

Please don't think you have wasted your time on this thread with me. I believe that is the devil trying to discourage you.

Why would you blame Satan? He has nothing to do with it. It’s not that I’m discouraged. Just bored with having to repeat myself so much.

I cringe as much as you do. But for different reasons. I cringe that those who are in Christ believe in a man-made religion more than they do Christ. That Calvinism is so popular. That people want to think that they have no free will so that they don’t have to feel responsible for what they do. They can blame it on someone else such as Satan or on something inanimate such as their flesh. Paul didn’t lay blame on his flesh in Rom 7. He points out a fact that apart from Christ and the Holy Spirit, he is apt to do what he doesn’t really want to do. Rom 8----problem solved. A choice is given whether to walk by the Spirit and follow the spirit of Christ, or to walk by the flesh. And that’s only for the one who is in Christ. Don’t be deluded into thinking that Paul changes horses in midstream in Rom 7 and is talking about himself as one who isn’t in Christ. Then changes back to his original horse in Rom 8. Where that ridiculous idea came from, I wouldn’t be surprised if it was John Calvin. Some day when I have more time, I look it up. He left a large doctrinal volume and commentaries.

You have contributed well to me, have I not contributed anything to you?

What have you contributed to me except your continued determination to believe in determinism? Certainly not your inexperience of the love of God evidenced by your saying “I love you too�

Steel sharpens steel it is said.

That’s iron, as they didn’t have steel in those days. And don’t you know that for iron to sharpen iron they have both be iron, to be of the same kind? Different kinds do not sharpen each other. The stronger molds the weaker. Glass can’t sharpen a diamond. Tin can’t sharpen iron.

I know you don't feel you are past learning anything.

The open minded learn constantly. But the open minded must constantly be on guard to not to be so open minded that what’s inside gets replaced by stuff that ain’t supposed to be there. Being renovated by the changing of our way of thinking doesn’t imply that we are to comply with just anything that sounds as if it might be what God has disclosed.

If you are conscious of the reasonableness of the notion that there is a manual that is bequeathed by a real Supreme Being, aren’t you impressed that the era of your history has approached to conclude that what it articulates is conscientiously planned to be unambiguous, rather than finding certitude in ambiguous elucidations of the aforementioned?

FC

 

[childeye]

Jesus freely chooses to forgive His enemies and so He asks His Father to forgive them also. We must, likewise, forgive our enemies in imitation of His forgiveness if we desire to follow Him and be forgiven by His Father in heaven.

Matthew 6:14-15 (ESV)
14 For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, 15 but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Notice that we must forgive others their sins against us in order to be forgiven for our sins we committed against God's commands. God does not force us to forgive others and He does not prevent us from forgiving others. Do forgive and receive forgiveness or do not forgive and do not receive forgiveness. It is our own free will choice to do either one. What we receive in return from God, either eternal life or condemnation, is the consequence of our freely made choice.

I would point out, that Jesus was without sin and was not beholden to forgive anybody for the cause of being forgiven himself. Moreover, he said why they should be forgiven, because they knew not what they were doing. The inference against freewill lies here, for they were helpless to do otherwise in that they were under powers of darkness. These men actually thought they were doing what was the right thing to do being deceived in the blindness to their captivity. Knowing this is why we forgive, for had they known what they were doing, they should be executed, not forgiven.

God does force people to forgive one another as it is His Truth that produces the Divine Love to forgive. Therefore such forgiveness is not done to save one's self although it does save one's self. It is given to save others as Christ has shown, under the understanding that sin is not the product of a freewill. In the process of believing that we don't know what we do, as we forgive others, we also are justified accordingly. That is how we are justified by the blood of the Lamb. If we say we have freewill, we do not actually forgive in truth and conviction for a pure cause and for a pure reason, nor are we justified. We simply forgive to save ourselves, and this would be vanity.

Paul glorifies God for saving him from his spiritual blindness. Paul was blind to the truth that Jesus was the Messiah and that it was actually the Christians instead of the zealous Jews like himself who served God as God commanded to be served in the New Covenant. Paul had good intentions because he believed that he was serving God in the very best way possible. Paul's zeal and love for God were redirected because of the mercy and grace of God and so now he is a new creation in Christ and zealous to preach the Way of the Lord.

I agree with everything you say here. I would use Paul to reiterate what I said above. Paul had murdered and knew first hand that he did not know what he was doing when doing so, but only after his blindness was removed. When he was finally silenced by the powers that seek to silence the Truth to maintain their hold on men, he no doubt was eager and willing to forgive those who silenced him. And this he did with a pure heart and a pure conviction, because he knew that those who silenced him did not know what they were doing. They did not do it of their freewill. Such is the Love and power of the Truth in Christ which he preached and was willing to die for.

 

[childeye]

Childeye

Bible says no one is separate from God while yet in this life.

If we were completely separate we'd be dead. But Christ called many dead who were yet alive. Kind of like dead men walking.

Bible says God is the source of that which is of God and our flesh is the source of death that causes that which is ungodly. Some think Satan is there.

Yes the will of the flesh is death. Satan is there only to use the desire of the flesh to both tempt with and accuse with. Hence Paul says, the spirit that now works in the children of disobedience, among whom we had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh. And elsewhere he says, we wrestle not against flesh and blood but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

But that is only a mask for what they don’t want to see is a part of themselves.

While I agree Satan is a part of ourselves before being exposed, I'm not sure I agree it is a mask. It is our vanity that is the same as his. You seem to be implying that the devil is an excuse.

Bible says Satan is out there in the world trying to coerce us to follow him. But that if we resist Satan, he will flee from us. He’s not looking for resisters, but for followers.

There's a big difference between powers that rule by Truth and powers that rule by lies. The scriptures are saying men are deceived into serving Satan, and Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. One cannot resist him without being armed with the Truth. Men killed men of God thinking they were serving god and resisting the devil.

You only create your own problems that appear to you to be problems in semantics. And you judge others to be as semantically minded as yourself.

I didn't invent semantics. I just have to deal with them as best I can and so do you. I can't blame anyone that a false truth posing as the true Truth twists all words speaking from the true Truth to mean the opposite of what they actually meant when received in the false truth. The terms said from an Old Testament perspective are opposites in many definitions from the New Testament perspective.

Why do you think I offered a one worded post that said semantics? You complained about the length of your prior post, and what I said was a joke. A joke based on a well used word by yourself. A wasted joke I see, since all you did was to agree.

I did laugh. Yes semantics are rather hilarious. I imagine you got a good laugh watching me dance over the minefields.

You’ll have to walk that path with someone else, as I ain’t ready to walk it just yet. And if you try too hard to NOT walk that path, you may find yourself on it for sure.

I know what it's like to not have my conviction solidified. I've spent my whole life needing to know, but really God was drawing me. I believe I am seeing the paradox compared to the hypocrisy wherein the two Cheribum face one another. But I usually celebrate on my own since no one else understands or even cares.

Why would you blame Satan? He has nothing to do with it. It’s not that I’m discouraged. Just bored with having to repeat myself so much.

It's my impression it is Satan and I felt you mature enough to handle it. It is a compliment to all those who have something Godly to offer. For where the good things are about to happen, ther is Satan trying to stop it. I feel you are always repeating yourself because you are stuck in the circular blindness of freewill as the answer for everything.

You know what I hear people are actually describing when they say freewill? They are saying being alive and sentient. Choices are always being made simply because we are alive and must choose to be doing something at all times. So I'd ask the question; Why do we sin? freewill. Why do we love? freewill. Why do we follow the flesh? freewill. Why do we follow the Spirit? freewill. Why do we disobey God? freewill. Why do we obey God? freewill. The only thing in such reasoning that will preclude freewill is death. So you would ask the god of this world, why do we do evil? And god says, because you can? Why do we do good? because you can? Then why don't we do good? because you don't. Then why do we do evil? Because you do. Why did Jesus submit to die on a cross and say forgive them because they don't know what they do then? UHHH???? Now freewill cannot answer this with a simple because he can. And this is the question that draws a man to seek God.

I cringe as much as you do. But for different reasons. I cringe that those who are in Christ believe in a man-made religion more than they do Christ. That Calvinism is so popular. That people want to think that they have no free will so that they don’t have to feel responsible for what they do. They can blame it on someone else such as Satan or on something inanimate such as their flesh. Paul didn’t lay blame on his flesh in Rom 7. He points out a fact that apart from Christ and the Holy Spirit, he is apt to do what he doesn’t really want to do. Rom 8----problem solved. A choice is given whether to walk by the Spirit and follow the spirit of Christ, or to walk by the flesh. And that’s only for the one who is in Christ. Don’t be deluded into thinking that Paul changes horses in midstream in Rom 7 and is talking about himself as one who isn’t in Christ. Then changes back to his original horse in Rom 8. Where that ridiculous idea came from, I wouldn’t be surprised if it was John Calvin. Some day when I have more time, I look it up. He left a large doctrinal volume and commentaries.

I understand your cringing, but people cannot help but be able to see only what they can see. The cross is approached from two contrary perspectives and there is confusion in the terminology used to express their views. Such is babylon, the tower to heaven, built by men.

Paul in Romans 7 is talking about the Old Testament where men choose to gain life by adherence to ordinances or choose death by disobedience. It is a classic freewill theology. But Paul is pointing out that because he has sin, he cannot avoid death no matter how much he wants to choose life. Paul in Romans 8, is the New Testament where life is about having a New Spirit given by God to now be enabled to accomplish the law and far more. He can't go back since there is only death there in trusting to his own strength. Now righteousness is not by obedience to laws, but obedience to a faith. That God's Spirit has overcome death and so will we, if we walk in it. And in this faith God is made strong in our weakness so the terms reverse. Therefore this faith requires we believe that men who sin are not free to not do so without Christ. And we are to affirm this by forgiving all who tresspass against us. When we do this we crucify the flesh and change the carnal mind that is the source of our sinfulness and it dies.

But the devil is there with his freewill theology trying to hinder our growth. Saying, you will fail, trying to get you through subtlty to think it's up to you. But if you resist, you perservere in forgiveness and charity and follow the Love of God He gives you which presides in the Truth, and there's no stopping it. It may take a while but gradually your flesh will die in Christ as you allow yourself to be crucified as Jesus did, and you will cease to have any will of the flesh left. Only God will remain. Many get discouraged, for God leaves some with a degree of infirmity lest they grow puffed up in their righteousness and again vanity takes hold. So His grace is sufficient for thee.

If you are conscious of the reasonableness of the notion that there is a manual that is bequeathed by a real Supreme Being, aren’t you impressed that the era of your history has approached to conclude that what it articulates is conscientiously planned to be unambiguous, rather than finding certitude in ambiguous elucidations of the aforementioned?

Scriptures are of great use, they are closed and opened according to God's purpose. There is no certitude for me in ambiguity.

 

[Danus]

So let's cut to the chase.. are you forced to sin or is it a choice..?

Yeah, every time murder is committed, they were forced to do it.. there was no choice in the matter..
Every time adultery is committed, they were forced to do it.. there was no choice in the matter..
Every time somebody steals something.. they're forced to do it.. there's never a choice..

I think that it's sad that people actually believe this nonsense.

Sorry, I've been doing some painting choirs at my home and haven't had time to get back on here.

Are we forced to sin? Well, we are sin by nature. this is a biblical fact. God is not sin. He's righteous, wholly Good, 100%.

the choices you make are within your sin nature. This is not to say that you can not be wooed by God, but it is to say that God is the source of good. the only source of any good.

The good news Eventide, is that you can believe that you are the source of "Good" by your own actions and thoughts if you like. You can call that a choice if you like and say; "I choose God." However, consider this. There are many people in the world today that do not choose God, they don't believe in God, they want nothing to do with God.

They also believe that it is utter nonsense that people like me would have the audacity to say that man is totally depraved and that he has no free choice of good on his own free will. How absurd they will say! And they will call us bigots, and hatters, and backwards, because we don't agree with the "good" things that they know about. Things like homosexuality, or the right to die, or the right to kill an unwanted life. They will call these things good, and smart and progressive, and even moral. ??? Yes they will ....and they will say that they are able to make a free choice, and that they have chosen what is indeed good, in their choice not to follow God.

What the bible is saying is proof that man is limited in his will to choose only what is of his own nature. SIN. That's the only realm one has any "FREE" choice....the other choice ...is not free. It is, but is will cost you, your will.

I hope that I have made this reformed protestant understanding clear. I am trying to impart this as best can.

 

[childeye]

Sorry, I've been doing some painting choirs at my home and haven't had time to get back on here.

Are we forced to sin? Well, we are sin by nature. this is a biblical fact. God is not sin. He's righteous, wholly Good, 100%.

the choices you make are within your sin nature. This is not to say that you can not be wooed by God, but it is to say that God is the source of good. the only source of any good.

The good news Eventide, is that you can believe that you are the source of "Good" by your own actions and thoughts if you like. You can call that a choice if you like and say; "I choose God." However, consider this. There are many people in the world today that do not choose God, they don't believe in God, they want nothing to do with God.

They also believe that it is utter nonsense that people like me would have the audacity to say that man is totally depraved and that he has no free choice of good on his own free will. How absurd they will say! And they will call us bigots, and hatters, and backwards, because we don't agree with the "good" things that they know about. Things like homosexuality, or the right to die, or the right to kill an unwanted life. They will call these things good, and smart and progressive, and even moral. ??? Yes they will ....and they will say that they are able to make a free choice, and that they have chosen what is indeed good, in their choice not to follow God.

What the bible is saying is proof that man is limited in his will to choose only what is of his own nature. SIN. That's the only realm one has any "FREE" choice....the other choice ...is not free. It is, but is will cost you, your will.

I hope that I have made this reformed protestant understanding clear. I am trying to impart this as best can.

I loved the way you said this. Very succinct, very equitable in your use of the terms choice and will.

 

[Eventide]

The good news Eventide, is that you can believe that you are the source of "Good" by your own actions and thoughts if you like.

It always gives me a good laugh to hear things like this... as if I have ever said anything even remotely close to this.. although it's so typical to see people resort to these type statements..

Anyway, if you actually believe that you're forced to sin and that you never have a choice in the matter.. then I feel sad for you.

 

[Danus]

It always gives me a good laugh to hear things like this... as if I have ever said anything even remotely close to this.. although it's so typical to see people resort to these type statements..

Anyway, if you actually believe that you're forced to sin and that you never have a choice in the matter.. then I feel sad for you.

ok,

 

[childeye]

It always gives me a good laugh to hear things like this... as if I have ever said anything even remotely close to this.. although it's so typical to see people resort to these type statements..

Anyway, if you actually believe that you're forced to sin and that you never have a choice in the matter.. then I feel sad for you.

Eventide, I answered your point blank question. I am hoping you will answer mine.

Do you say you sin and are also now saying you sin willingly, and you want to be a sinner with all power to be able to not do so at your discretion?

You also say you feel sad for Danus. Why? What I've taken away from what Danus has said is, he had no choice about being made flesh. I think you misunderstand what he said.

 

[JMJ]

I supplied the connotations from an accurate Lexicon to preempt just such a conclusion as you have drawn. The word "gave" means to be made subject to. But for further proof I offer this.

The scripture says God gave them over to the will of the flesh. Since we are not excluded, that means us. I take issue with the claim He allows us to go our own way, since if we always have had a freewill, He never stopped us to begin with. So it means nothing to now say He gives us over to the lusts of the flesh, unless somehow He was preventing it in the first place. Moreover the scripture says we we became filled with all unrighteousness, which cannot be taken any other way but to mean we were'nt filled prior to that.

Disregard the Lexicon in this case since it does not apply:

The Israelite manner of speaking is not always meant to be taken strictly literally. The Semitic manner of speaking is not always meant to be taken strictly literally. Both the Israelite and Jewish peoples attributed to God what they themselves did because of His permissive will. He allows them to sin against Him and He does not prevent them from sinning against Him.

When we choose to sin we become filled with unrighteousness. Unrighteousness is the consequence of our own sins.

They gave themselves over to their lusts of their own flesh. God allowed it. God did not prevent it. God did not cause the lusts of their flesh nor did He desire for them to sin against Him.

Another example:

Exodus 10:1 NKJV
Now the LORD said to Moses, “Go in to Pharaoh; for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his servants, that I may show these signs of Mine before him,

It looks like God forced Pharaoh and his servants to sin against Him. But, He did not.

Exodus 9:34 NKJV
And when Pharaoh saw that the rain, the hail, and the thunder had ceased, he sinned yet more; and he hardened his heart, he and his servants.

What really happened is that Pharaoh and his servants chose to harden their own hearts and each person made his own choice to sin against God.

Also as is made apparrant, neither does Paul want to be any of these things as per what he describes here.

Romans 7:13-24
New International Version (NIV)
13 Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! Nevertheless, in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it used what is good to bring about my death, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.
14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15 I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[a] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. 21 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death?

So I see here, that Paul is forced to do what he does not want to do because of sin dwelling in him. He wants to be good but he cannot be good in separation from God which is sin, because there is no good thing in His flesh.

Long story short:

Paul is lamenting the fact that his own flesh and its desires continue to war against the Spirit of God who dwells within him. It is a constant battle to continually overcome evil temptations and it will remain a constant battle until he dies.

What does Peter say is the remedy for these temptations of the flesh and of the devil?

1 Peter 5:8 NKJV
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. 9 Resist him, steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same sufferings are experienced by your brotherhood in the world. 10 But may the God of all grace, who called us to His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a while, perfect, establish, strengthen, and settle you.


What does James say is the remedy for these temptations of the flesh and of the devil?

James 4:7-8 NKJV
7 Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. 8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

What does Paul say is the remedy for these temptations of the flesh and of the devil?

Ephesians 6:14-18 NKJV
Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16 above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; 18 praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints—

Ephesians 4:17-18
King James Version (KJV)
17This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, 18Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

Notice that Paul states that they are to walk not as other Gentiles walk. They are to choose to walk in the righteousness of God rather than to choose to walk in the unrighteousness of the Gentiles. This walking in righteousness is what they themselves have to choose to do and actually do.

Some people refuse to believe that their own evil choices matter regarding the salvation of their souls. They choose to blame either God or Satan for all of their own unrighteousness behavior instead of correctly blaming themselves and then coming to repentance.

Others believe that it does not matter whether they do good or evil since God will save them anyway and this is because at one specific moment in their lives they accepted Jesus as their Savior; and so they continue to do the evil they want to do.

Both groups will be ashamed when they are judged:

Ezekiel 33:17-20 NKJV
17 “Yet the children of your people say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ But it is their way which is not fair! 18 When the righteous turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, he shall die [be condemned to hell] because of it. 19 But when the wicked turns from his wickedness and does what is lawful and right, he shall live [inherit eternal life] because of it. 20 Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ O house of Israel, I will judge every one of you according to his own ways.”

I cringe when people say it's all about God's grace and that they do not ever have to take any responsibility for their own good or evil choices and that they will not ever have to reap the consequences for their own good or evil choices.

We reap what we sow:

John 5:28-30 (NKJV)
28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

We will agree to disagree. It is time for me to move on to other topics now and so I will not be posting again on this thread.

 

[zeke]

It looks like God forced Pharaoh and his servants to sin against Him. But, He did not.

Exodus 9:34 NKJV
And when Pharaoh saw that the rain, the hail, and the thunder had ceased, he sinned yet more; and he hardened his heart, he and his servants.

What really happened is that Pharaoh and his servants chose to harden their own hearts and each person made his own choice to sin against God.

Excellent point. The universal truth taught in God’s word remains true – the choice to serve God or to serve sin is each individual's choice via God’s gift of free-will…

But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD." ~ Joshua ​

 

[childeye]

Disregard the Lexicon in this case since it does not apply:

The Israelite manner of speaking is not always meant to be taken strictly literally. The Semitic manner of speaking is not always meant to be taken strictly literally. Both the Israelite and Jewish peoples attributed to God what they themselves did because of His permissive will. He allows them to sin against Him and He does not prevent them from sinning against Him.

When we choose to sin we become filled with unrighteousness. Unrighteousness is the consequence of our own sins.

They gave themselves over to their lusts of their own flesh. God allowed it. God did not prevent it. God did not cause the lusts of their flesh nor did He desire for them to sin against Him.

Another example:

Exodus 10:1 NKJV
Now the LORD said to Moses, “Go in to Pharaoh; for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his servants, that I may show these signs of Mine before him,

It looks like God forced Pharaoh and his servants to sin against Him. But, He did not.

Exodus 9:34 NKJV
And when Pharaoh saw that the rain, the hail, and the thunder had ceased, he sinned yet more; and he hardened his heart, he and his servants.

What really happened is that Pharaoh and his servants chose to harden their own hearts and each person made his own choice to sin against God.



Long story short:

Paul is lamenting the fact that his own flesh and its desires continue to war against the Spirit of God who dwells within him. It is a constant battle to continually overcome evil temptations and it will remain a constant battle until he dies.

What does Peter say is the remedy for these temptations of the flesh and of the devil?

1 Peter 5:8 NKJV
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. 9 Resist him, steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same sufferings are experienced by your brotherhood in the world. 10 But may the God of all grace, who called us to His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a while, perfect, establish, strengthen, and settle you.


What does James say is the remedy for these temptations of the flesh and of the devil?

James 4:7-8 NKJV
7 Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. 8 Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded.

What does Paul say is the remedy for these temptations of the flesh and of the devil?

Ephesians 6:14-18 NKJV
Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16 above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; 18 praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints—



Notice that Paul states that they are to walk not as other Gentiles walk. They are to choose to walk in the righteousness of God rather than to choose to walk in the unrighteousness of the Gentiles. This walking in righteousness is what they themselves have to choose to do and actually do.

Some people refuse to believe that their own evil choices matter regarding the salvation of their souls. They choose to blame either God or Satan for all of their own unrighteousness behavior instead of correctly blaming themselves and then coming to repentance.

Others believe that it does not matter whether they do good or evil since God will save them anyway and this is because at one specific moment in their lives they accepted Jesus as their Savior; and so they continue to do the evil they want to do.

Both groups will be ashamed when they are judged:

Ezekiel 33:17-20 NKJV
17 “Yet the children of your people say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ But it is their way which is not fair! 18 When the righteous turns from his righteousness and commits iniquity, he shall die [be condemned to hell] because of it. 19 But when the wicked turns from his wickedness and does what is lawful and right, he shall live [inherit eternal life] because of it. 20 Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ O house of Israel, I will judge every one of you according to his own ways.”

I cringe when people say it's all about God's grace and that they do not ever have to take any responsibility for their own good or evil choices and that they will not ever have to reap the consequences for their own good or evil choices.

We reap what we sow:

John 5:28-30 (NKJV)
28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

We will agree to disagree. It is time for me to move on to other topics now and so I will not be posting again on this thread.

It is a dissapointment that you have given up on this thread. I Would have liked to point out the disparities between what scripture actually says and what you say it says. But I am left here writing to myself lest you perchance read this.

The bottom line is Christ was crucified and as a good shepeherd of the sheep he laid his life down to protect the sheep from the wolf, while the hirelings ran away.

Meanwhile we see Satan, the adversary of men, both tempting and accusing. While you would not allow the devil to be blamed for either since you hold that ultimately men choose for themselves, I would say that the sheep did not crucify the shepherd, Satan did.
So it is Jesus said he came to destroy the works of Satan. This is who blamed Satan, the innocent one who paid the price so that sins may be forgiven.

 

[Eventide]

Some people refuse to believe that their own evil choices matter regarding the salvation of their souls. They choose to blame either God or Satan for all of their own unrighteousness behavior instead of correctly blaming themselves and then coming to repentance.

I would have had a difficult time believing this if I had not witnessed it right here in this thread.

 

[childeye]

Excellent point. The universal truth taught in God’s word remains true – the choice to serve God or to serve sin is each individual's choice via God’s gift of free-will…

But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD." ~ Joshua
​

Monotheism.
You have proclaimed that the universal Truth is that God gives man a choice between God and Satan, even though all other gods are actually falsehoods and there is no alternative to the One True God. Subsequently, freewill is the contemplating of serving Satan or lies instead of Truth.

But the scripture you provided does not actually imply we are free to choose to serve God since it is not seen in it's full context, and because in full context we would have to be free from sin to serve God. This is a common misconception made by those who use this scripture as proof of freewill, when in fact it proves the opposite.

That is why Joshua says in Joshua 24:19, Ye cannot serve the LORD: for he is an holy God; he is a jealous God; he will not forgive your transgressions nor your sins.

As we know the people said they would choose to serve God despite the warning from Joshua, and later in judges they go back to their idols and God allows them to be defeated by their enemies. Despite being given the choice they could not serve God as Joshua had said, making the case for freewill impossible to derive from these scriptures.

So Zeke, you are new to this thread and I invite your input for as long as you are able to stand the simple Truth. For the record, do you claim to be able to not sin via a freewill that you posess?

 

[childeye]

Some people refuse to believe that their own evil choices matter regarding the salvation of their souls. They choose to blame either God or Satan for all of their own unrighteousness behavior instead of correctly blaming themselves and then coming to repentance.

Have you not read the outset of this thread? The vanity that arose in heaven was through Satan, and was manifested here in the flesh. It is a point of scripture showing sin began by thinking one was righteous above others by self-will rather than by grace. This therefore is not an excuse to get away with sin since it was righteousness that was taken for granted not sin. The witnessing of God's glorius Image is set against the backdrop of this vanity. This Image, this Christ is who taught us to forgive because they know not what they do. He is not blaming men or God but identifies Satan as the cause behind sin and regards sinners as those who need a doctor. Those who have his Spirit do the same. Only the sick mind would even think sin is desirable.

1 John 3:7-10

7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

I cringe when people say it's all about God's grace and that they do not ever have to take any responsibility for their own good or evil choices and that they will not ever have to reap the consequences for their own good or evil choices.

Personally, I am glad God will forgive sins and iniquity in exchange for admitting the Spirit of goodness exists in mankind by grace.
Zechariah 4:5-7

King James Version (KJV)


5Then the angel that talked with me answered and said unto me, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, No, my lord.
6Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts. 7Who art thou, O great mountain? before Zerubbabel thou shalt become a plain: and he shall bring forth the headstone thereof with shoutings, crying, Grace, grace unto it.

 

[childeye]

I would have had a difficult time believing this if I had not witnessed it right here in this thread.

Just read it in the bible and see it on the cross and believe it. God's Glorius Image said forgive them they know not what they do.

So do you sin willingly and have the freewill power to not sin at your own discretion or not?

 

[zeke]

You have proclaimed that the universal Truth is that God gives man a choice between God and Satan

You appear to misunderstand my friend – I said the Bible teaches a universal truth – the truth that man has the choice to serve God or to serve sin and that freedom to choose is ours via God’s gift of free-will. We are either slaves of sin leading to death or we obey God “from the heart" - an obedience that leads to righteousness. The choice is ours. Obedience implies freedom of choice.

Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
(Rom 6:16-18)​

Have you personally chosen via freewill to obey God unto righteousness or have you chosen to remain a slave of sin? Or are you a robot?

But the scripture you provided does not actually imply we are free to choose to serve God since it is not seen in it's full context

Of course it does. What Bible version do you use? In context - Joshua clearly told the people they had a choice to make that day - they could choose to serve the gods of their forefathers or the gods of the Amorites but his household had already made the choice to serve the LORD. What part of choose/choice/freewill are you missing?