Why I Left Scofieldism.

[Eventide]

1) I do not hold an amillinial position, its premillinial.

Then what did you mean by your previous comment that there is 'plenty of scriptural support for a millennial kingdom' ?

 

[reba]

The Bible says plain and simple the Kingdom of God is...


Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Is there another definition in Scripture?

 

[warhorse]

Then what did you mean by your previous comment that there is 'plenty of scriptural support for a millennial kingdom' ?

Look the amillinialist dont believe there is a millinial kingdom, and the post-millinialist believe its about to end like the RCC. The only position that looks to scripture to support a millinial kingdom is the pre-millinialist. So the statement is fairly plain, there is plenty of scripture to support a millinial kingdom. From Gods promise in Genesis to Ezekials description, to the referances in Rev. Its just plain scriptural fact.

 

[Hitch]

Look the amillinialist dont believe there is a millinial kingdom, and the post-millinialist believe its about to end like the RCC. The only position that looks to scripture to support a millinial kingdom is the pre-millinialist. So the statement is fairly plain, there is plenty of scripture to support a millinial kingdom. From Gods promise in Genesis to Ezekials description, to the referances in Rev. Its just plain scriptural fact.

So what did Jesus have to say about it?

 

[Eventide]

IMO Amillennialism is much worse.. as if this present evil world is the kingdom of God.. or that Satan is bound..

There is plenty of scriptural support for the millinial kingdom, without dispensationalism or the pre-trib fable. Dispensationalism is the reason why the end times seems so confusing. Once it is cut out of the way, it all falls into place.

Look the amillinialist dont believe there is a millinial kingdom, and the post-millinialist believe its about to end like the RCC. The only position that looks to scripture to support a millinial kingdom is the pre-millinialist. So the statement is fairly plain, there is plenty of scripture to support a millinial kingdom. From Gods promise in Genesis to Ezekials description, to the referances in Rev. Its just plain scriptural fact.

I agree that the Lord's kingdom is future here on earth.. it just seems to me that your response to my original comment was saying something different..

 

[warhorse]

So what did Jesus have to say about it?

John 14v1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also

Rev 21v2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away

 

[ada]

1) I do not hold an amillinial position, its premillinial.
2) The church of God did not replace Israel as Gods chosen peaple.
3) The promise was never given to national israel, it was given to abraham and his seed by faith.

Romans 4v8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.

Eph 3v4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

Gal 3v24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

4) It is the church who serves christ in the millinial kingdom because the promise was always by faith.

Right and Abraham was the father of many nations(Gen 17:5).
It has never been about fleshly isarel or man made supremacy and
slavery or land or anything besides Jesus Christ who was before Abraham.

All things were made by him; and without him was
not any thing made that was made.(John 1:3)

Its all about spiritual israel by faith and forgiveness and circumcision of the heart.

Rev. 22:17
Whosoever will may come. And whosoever will,
let him take the water of life freely.

 

[Hitch]

John 14v1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also

Rev 21v2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away

So Jesus didnt say a word,not a single word, regarding any sort of temporal kingdom.

But then neither does the Rev passage.

But Jesus spoke about the kingdom all the time. I wonder why he never said anything about it being earthly, maybe he missed something.

 

[reba]

Mat 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God unto you.


Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Luk 10:9 And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.

Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.


Those are some of the Words of Christ. Where does He say the Kingdom is? Man has his ideas but Jesus has told us. If one cares to accept the Words of Christ.

 

[warhorse]

Mat 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God unto you.


Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Luk 10:9 And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.

Luk 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.


Those are some of the Words of Christ. Where does He say the Kingdom is? Man has his ideas but Jesus has told us. If one cares to accept the Words of Christ.

There is no argument as to the nature of Gods kingdom, it is spiritual in nature, that does not mean that when Jesus takes over the earthly kingdoms that it does not also have a physical fullfillment. How many prophacies were literally fullfilled when Jesus came the first time? The nails and the thorns were real, He was literally lifted up, and literally hung upon a tree. How do you suppose all eyes will see him, and every knee will bow and every tung confess if its not literal. How will hearts fail when he spiritually returns if its not a literal physical return. No Maam I could not accept an amillinial, or postmillinial pos.

 

[warhorse]

So Jesus didnt say a word,not a single word, regarding any sort of temporal kingdom.

But then neither does the Rev passage.

But Jesus spoke about the kingdom all the time. I wonder why he never said anything about it being earthly, maybe he missed something.

Tell me the Throne of david was it of God or man...Physical or spiritual
Luke 1v32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his KINGDOM there shall be no end.

 

[Hitch]

Tell me the Throne of david was it of God or man...Physical or spiritual
Luke 1v32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his KINGDOM there shall be no end.

Actually the seat of power in Israel was typical of the seat Christ occupies today.

As there never was any question of who it really belonged to;

"Then Solomon sat on the throne of the LORD as king instead of David his father, and prospered; and all Israel obeyed him."

But as a believer you should already know that;";While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal."

Why do you dispute Paul and say the physical will never end?

 

[Hitch]

There is no argument as to the nature of Gods kingdom, it is spiritual in nature, that does not mean that when Jesus takes over the earthly kingdoms that it does not also have a physical fullfillment. How many prophacies were literally fullfilled when Jesus came the first time? The nails and the thorns were real, He was literally lifted up, and literally hung upon a tree. How do you suppose all eyes will see him, and every knee will bow and every tung confess if its not literal. How will hearts fail when he spiritually returns if its not a literal physical return. No Maam I could not accept an amillinial, or postmillinial pos.

Did Reba say Christ would not return bodily?

But I wonder why you pretend to be a literalist?

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Clearly you are not.

 

[ada]

Who was Cyrus Scofield

Scofield, Cyrus I. (1843-08-19 to 1921-07-24) | Google | SrcWatch | NNDB | NamBase | SchRoot
• Lawyer, politician, Christian Zionist, promoter of the "dispensational" teachings of John Nelson Darby
• Critical history of Cyrus Scofield and the Christian Zionist movement
(See: John Torrell article)
• 1874 : Abandoned his Catholic wife and 3 daughters
• 1877 : Convicted of financial fraud
• 1880 : Began new career as a Christian Congregationalist pastor
• 1882 : Moved from St. Louis, Missouri to Dallas, Texas
• 1907 : Moved from Dallas to New York
• 1909 : Oxford University Press publishes the annotated "Scofield Reference Bible" | Google ^ Lotus Club (Member of, 1901 to 1921-07-24) | Google
• Scofield was sponsored by Jewish financier Samuel Untermeyer
^ U.S. Department of Justice (Member of, 1873-06 to 1873-12) | Google
• Federal Attorney General for the State of Kansas
^ State Legislature (Member of, 1871 to 1872) | Google
• Kansas, House of Representatives
http://www.modernhistoryproject.org/mhp/EntityDisplay.php?Entity=ScofieldCI

Cyrus Scofield and the subversion of modern Christianity

What was Cyrus Scofield trying to hide from us?

"The Tetragrammaton appears to have its origin in the phrase found in Exodus 3:14, "I am that I am". Before this it was known as the Shem ha-meforash, the seventy-two syllabled name of God, made up of 216 letters. The source of the Shem ha-meforash, according to tradition, are verses 19-21 of Exodus xiv, each of the three verses containing seventy-two Hebrew letters. The letters of verse 19 were written down in separated form and in correct order; the letters of verse 20, also in separated form, were written down in reverse order, and the letters of verse 21 were written down in correct order.
Reading from above down, one obtains seventy-two three-letter names, all of which combine to make one. To these three-lettered names were then added either AL or IH to form the names of the seventy-two angels of Jacob's ladder."Charles Ponce Kabbalah
​

The type of permutation described above is called Temura, and it is a common Kabbalist device. The three verses of Exodus 14:19-21 that constitute the Shem ha-meforash happen to describe how a pillar of cloud by day and fire by night appeared just prior to Moses' leading the Hapiru across the Red Sea into the desert. This is a cipher, so that wherever a "pillar of fire by night" or "cloud by day" is mentioned in the Bible, one may substitute the Shem ha-meforash to obtain the proper Kabbalistic interpretation.
The Kabbalists know that the Shem ha-meforash – the Seventy-two Syllabled Name of God, the Seventy-two Angels of Jacob's Ladder, the seventy-two Sanhedrin – are also the seventy-two proper names of daemons, who are sealed in the Key of Solomon. This Key is used by the Practical Kabbalist to construct talismans by which he may summon, or conjure, these beings. To the Speculative Kabbalist the names represent the seventy-two dominions, principalities, elementals, powers and paths over which he seeks mastery.
Thus, from a Kabbalistic perspective, the verse of Isaiah 4:5 is stating that after the Mountain of Zion has been constructed, the deity shall assign seventy-two daemons – an infernal Sanhedrin, if you will – to watch over Zion and protect it.
And that, my dear reader, is exactly what Cyrus Scofield called the Kingdom of Jesus! That, Christian, is what your ministers taught you is Jesus' Second Coming! Ye worship ye know not what!
And who was Cyrus Scofield?
As a young con-artist in Kansas after the Civil War, he met up with John J. Ingalls, an aging Jewish lawyer who had been sent to Atchison by the "Secret Six" some thirty years before to work the Abolitionist cause. Pulling strings both in Kansas and with his compatriots back east, Ingalls assisted Scofield in gaining admission to the Bar, and procured his appointment as Federal Attorney for Kansas. Ingalls and Scofield became partners in a railroad scam which led to Cyrus serving time for criminal forgery.
While he was in prison, Scofield began studying the philosophy of John Darby, pioneer of the Plymouth Brethren movement and the "any moment now" rapture doctrine.
Upon his release from prison, Scofield deserted his first wife, Leonteen Carry Scofield, and his two daughters Abigail and Helen, and he took as his mistress a young girl from the St. Louis Flower Mission. He later abandoned her for Helen van Ward, whom he eventually married. Following his Illuminati connections to New York, he settled in at the Lotus Club, which he listed as his residence for the next twenty years. It was here that he presented his ideas for a new Christian Bible concordance, and was taken under the wing of Samuel Untermeyer, who later became chairman of the American Jewish Committee, president of the American League of Jewish Patriots, and chairman of the Non-sectarian Anti-Nazi League.
Untermeyer introduced Scofield to numerous Zionist and socialist leaders, including Samuel Gompers, Fiorello LaGuardia, Abraham Straus, Bernard Baruch and Jacob Schiff. These were the people who financed Scofield's research trips to Oxford and arranged the publication and distribution of his concordance.
It is impossible to overstate the influence of Cyrus Scofield on twentieth-century Christian beliefs. The Scofield Bible is the standard reference work in virtually all Christian ministries and divinity schools. It is singularly responsible for the Christian belief that the Hebrew Prophecies describe the kingdom of Jesus' Second Coming, and not the Zionist vision of a man-made New World Order.
And it is precisely because Christians persist in this belief that they remain blind to the reality of Zion.
Scofield served as the agent by which the Zionists paralyzed Christianity, while they prepared America for our final conquest.
The Greatest Hoax | Cyrus Scofeld: Who Was He?

 

[reba]

There is no argument as to the nature of Gods kingdom, it is spiritual in nature, that does not mean that when Jesus takes over the earthly kingdoms that it does not also have a physical fullfillment. How many prophacies were literally fullfilled when Jesus came the first time? The nails and the thorns were real, He was literally lifted up, and literally hung upon a tree. How do you suppose all eyes will see him, and every knee will bow and every tung confess if its not literal. How will hearts fail when he spiritually returns if its not a literal physical return. No Maam I could not accept an amillinial, or postmillinial pos.

No Maam I could not accept an amillinial, or postmillinial pos.

I did not offer either pos. I just quoted a few words of our Lord Jesus on His kingdom

 

[farouk]

reba:

Scofield or no Scofield, the church isn't Israel, as I read Scripture.

Dispensational distinctions don't depend on how much a publisher charged for a particular edition of a study Bible, or on whether someone with known views on a subject had trouble with his zipper.

You are right; it's good to make careful distinctions in Scripture.

 

[Hitch]

reba:

Scofield or no Scofield, the church isn't Israel, as I read Scripture.

Dispensational distinctions don't depend on how much a publisher charged for a particular edition of a study Bible, or on whether someone with known views on a subject had trouble with his zipper.

You are right; it's good to make careful distinctions in Scripture.

Do you see the church as 'God's people'?

 

[reba]

Farouk,

It is not just his zipper...... Matt says


Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. 1909 edition
Scofield notes on the same page say gather first the wheat,,, I do believe it is page 1015

That is a big difference he blatantly distorted scripture to fit his wants. This is not the only discrepancy. Gee sounds like the WoF guys today...

 

[warhorse]

Did Reba say Christ would not return bodily?

But I wonder why you pretend to be a literalist?

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Clearly you are not.

That last Day. Agreed
Rev 10v5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: 7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

 

[Hitch]

That last Day. Agreed
Rev 10v5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: 7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

I havent the foggiest.