why modern premillenialism fails

[jasoncran]

i have gone towards the amillenial position as the modern premill position teaches that jesus returns to give a second chance after the second advent. i dont find this in the bible as when it speaks of the returns its too late for those that dont know him.

 

[Hitch]

Pretty well nails it.

 

[felix]

I don't hold Amillennialism because, it nullifies the prophecy of Christ sitting on the throne of David in Luke 1:32.

When Christ came to this world:
(John 18:36) Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here."

A future event when He takes over the kingdoms of this world:
(Rev 11:15) Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become [the kingdoms] of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"

So far, Christ never had sat on the throne of David till now. Nor is throne of David spiritual. I tend to go with 'Premillennialism'. As usual, I am happy to change my views if there is scriptural evidence which does not contradict other verses.

 

[jasoncran]

felix, the modern millenial view is as close as christianity gets to judiasm these days in fact i dare say its as if a christian went to the pharisees and said yup your messiah is coming the second time to do what you asked.

so why is the church of today teaching that? by this i mean a literal temple with ot like or ot law or a return to it with the messiah in the third temple reinging and the nation of isreal being the light unto the gentiles. i cant fathom this is why god would send his son back to do what the church has been doing for 2000 yrs. to me that implies a low opinion of the cross. it implies that god cant work miracles when men fail him.

 

[Hitch]

I don't hold Amillennialism because, it nullifies the prophecy of Christ sitting on the throne of David in Luke 1:32.

When Christ came to this world:
(John 18:36) Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here."

A future event when He takes over the kingdoms of this world:
(Rev 11:15) Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become [the kingdoms] of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"

So far, Christ never had sat on the throne of David till now. Nor is throne of David spiritual. I tend to go with 'Premillennialism'. As usual, I am happy to change my views if there is scriptural evidence which does not contradict other verses.

Which 'throne' is the seat of all the power in heaven and earth?

Is Dave's throne greater than this?

 

[Hitch]

felix, the modern millenial view is as close as christianity gets to judiasm these days in fact i dare say its as if a christian went to the pharisees and said yup your messiah is coming the second time to do what you asked.

so why is the church of today teaching that? by this i mean a literal temple with ot like or ot law or a return to it with the messiah in the third temple reinging and the nation of isreal being the light unto the gentiles. i cant fathom this is why god would send his son back to do what the church has been doing for 2000 yrs. to me that implies a low opinion of the cross. it implies that god cant work miracles when men fail him.

You have been hitting the books.

 

[felix]

felix, the modern millenial view is as close as christianity gets to judiasm these days in fact i dare say its as if a christian went to the pharisees and said yup your messiah is coming the second time to do what you asked.

so why is the church of today teaching that? by this i mean a literal temple with ot like or ot law or a return to it with the messiah in the third temple reinging and the nation of isreal being the light unto the gentiles. i cant fathom this is why god would send his son back to do what the church has been doing for 2000 yrs. to me that implies a low opinion of the cross. it implies that god cant work miracles when men fail him.

I don't agree with any literal temple and Christ building a third physical temple either for what Christ built is His body which is referred as temple and we are His body. If you could explain a bit more on where premillenialism fails, I can probably try to do some study on this and discuss it.

 

[jasoncran]

then you arent in any wise a premillenial. that is close to what i say.since the time of john that concept of millenism has existed but it was never fully accepted and in fact considered quite heretic.

but the problem for you is that what is said in that millenium as who is to be the subjects of that reign. it cant be sinners given my statement on what christ and paul teach.

 

[felix]

Which 'throne' is the seat of all the power in heaven and earth?

Is Dave's throne greater than this?

There are multiple thrones: There is a throne of God, throne of Christ and finally, throne of David.

Christ sits on the throne of God and Christ has His own throne where He allows us to sit on it (Rev 3:21). However, 'throne of David' is quote important as it is given specifically as a promise:

(Luke 1:32) "He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David.

Christ also says about His disciples judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

(Luke 22:29-30) "And I bestow upon you a kingdom, just as My Father bestowed [one] upon Me, that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

These prophecies are quite important can cannot be ignored when we take our position esp. in eschatology.

 

[jasoncran]

You have been hitting the books.

its always the futurists not your nor reba that made me realise this stuff. i also noticed that as i can post the evidence for this since i visit chabad.org.

i wasnt going to bother with end times until a friend of mine was dealing with the two gospel nut and so i did some reasearch and i found where it all came from. schofield and i believe some eager jewish zionists. i cant prove it but i can see that as real possiblity as it seems to make sense. at the time zionism hits(1890) there the heyday of futurism. and they jive.for the record i am for isreal and will say that jesus didnt say there wouldnt be a kingdom of isreal but that he didnt say it was for the displices to know.

im stupid enough to take the words of day as day and when jesus says you arent to know then we wont as they didnt see it.


http://www.chabad.org/library/moshiach/article_cdo/aid/1121893/jewish/The-Basics.htm

http://www.chabad.org/library/moshiach/article_cdo/aid/1128725/jewish/The-Basics.htm

http://www.chabad.org/library/moshi...wish/Torah-Study-During-the-Messianic-Era.htm

the last sounds almost way to close to be even biblicaly sound and yet we teach that.

 

[felix]

but the problem for you is that what is said in that millenium as who is to be the subjects of that reign. it cant be sinners given my statement on what christ and paul teach.

True but I still don't fully understand and God must reveal more to us on that subject. But what I understand is, A can't reign over B without B existing. If all the sinless people are reigning, then who are they reigning over? There is also another prophecy of ruling with a rod of iron.

(Rev 2:27) 'He shall rule them with a rod of iron; They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter's vessels' -- as I also have received from My Father;

The prophecy in Rev 2:27 cannot be in new heavens and new earth because righteousness dwells in it. So, it has to be some point in the existing old heavens and earth. Also, if he rules with rod of iron (more strict), who is he ruling? My best assumption would be in the 1000 year reign.

 

[jasoncran]

the problem with that version of the millenium is that if god does that and it worked better then the church why then bother with the church.?

most version of that idea teach a limited grace but wont dare say that. i mean humans are rebellious and the isrealites saw more of jesus miracles and also the YHWH in his glory cloud are damned. so what makes the surviivors of the trib any better that they will listen? surely if they would they would have repented. either its a full wrath that is poured or not. im not saying that i have got it all figured out i did say the millenium as taught TODAY.

THE FIGURATIVE YEARS that are spoken of must end and satan realised that is made clear.

 

[Hitch]

There are multiple thrones: There is a throne of God, throne of Christ and finally, throne of David.

Christ sits on the throne of God and Christ has His own throne where He allows us to sit on it (Rev 3:21). However, 'throne of David' is quote important as it is given specifically as a promise:

8Blessed be the LORD thy God, which delighted in thee to set thee on his throne, to be king for the LORD thy God: because thy God loved Israel, to establish them for ever, therefore made he thee king over them, to do judgment and justice.

Its God's throne all along. Above is Sol's throne which is described as great than David's. tThe point is that the chair is typical, there simply is nothing more than' all power and authority', and that is the seat Christ occupies today, of which Dave and Sol sat typically.

(Luke 1:32) "He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest; and the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David.

Christ also says about His disciples judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

(Luke 22:29-30) "And I bestow upon you a kingdom, just as My Father bestowed [one] upon Me, that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

These prophecies are quite important can cannot be ignored when we take our position esp. in eschatology.

Which 'throne' is the seat of all the power in heaven and earth?

Is Dave's throne greater than this?


If Dave's throne is not greater than the seat Christ occupies today you would have Christ again in humility, which is what you must have to seat Christ on earth where sin and death still run rampant.

The answer is as basic as it is simple. Dave's throne was typical .

 

[Hitch]

True but I still don't fully understand and God must reveal more to us on that subject. But what I understand is, A can't reign over B without B existing. If all the sinless people are reigning, then who are they reigning over? There is also another prophecy of ruling with a rod of iron.

(Rev 2:27) 'He shall rule them with a rod of iron; They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter's vessels' -- as I also have received from My Father;

The prophecy in Rev 2:27 cannot be in new heavens and new earth because righteousness dwells in it. So, it has to be some point in the existing old heavens and earth. Also, if he rules with rod of iron (more strict), who is he ruling? My best assumption would be in the 1000 year reign.

So to you it is more glorious for Christ to force men to obey by direct power than for him to be seated at the Right hand of the Father?

I doubt you believe that yet it is required for your program.

 

[farouk]

i have gone towards the amillenial position as the modern premill position teaches that jesus returns to give a second chance after the second advent. i dont find this in the bible as when it speaks of the returns its too late for those that dont know him.

j: Well, I see.

Which aspect of the second coming do you mean? His coming for His church, to meet in the air (1 Thess. 4, etc.) or judgment on the earth (2 Peter 3.7, etc.).

 

[Hitch]

The notion of Christ bodily on earth for some short period before eternity carries with it a terrible necessity.

That being the the failure of his church to bear the fruit of the kingdom and the failure on the part of the Holy Spirit to draw men to the Father and convince them of their depravity.

Either God set in motion the best possible means to redeem mankind, Christ enthroned and the Holy Spirit actively ministering on earth, or He gave the church a second rate program that was designed to fail.

 

[felix]

the problem with that version of the millenium is that if god does that and it worked better then the church why then bother with the church.?

most version of that idea teach a limited grace but wont dare say that. i mean humans are rebellious and the isrealites saw more of jesus miracles and also the YHWH in his glory cloud are damned. so what makes the surviivors of the trib any better that they will listen? surely if they would they would have repented. either its a full wrath that is poured or not. im not saying that i have got it all figured out i did say the millenium as taught TODAY.

THE FIGURATIVE YEARS that are spoken of must end and satan realised that is made clear.

(Rev 20:4) And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then [I saw] the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received [his] mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Who will participate in 1000 years is very clear. Not everyone who lived a good life and went to Heaven.

 

[felix]

8Blessed be the LORD thy God, which delighted in thee to set thee on his throne, to be king for the LORD thy God: because thy God loved Israel, to establish them for ever, therefore made he thee king over them, to do judgment and justice.

Its God's throne all along. Above is Sol's throne which is described as great than David's. tThe point is that the chair is typical, there simply is nothing more than' all power and authority', and that is the seat Christ occupies today, of which Dave and Sol sat typically. Which 'throne' is the seat of all the power in heaven and earth?

Is Dave's throne greater than this?


If Dave's throne is not greater than the seat Christ occupies today you would have Christ again in humility, which is what you must have to seat Christ on earth where sin and death still run rampant.

The answer is as basic as it is simple. Dave's throne was typical .

You are missing the whole point. It is not about which throne is greater, but rather the fulfillment of a prophecy.

 

[Hitch]

(Rev 20:4) And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then [I saw] the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received [his] mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Who will participate in 1000 years is very clear. Not everyone who lived a good life and went to Heaven.

Since Christ has ascended to the highest throne and claims 'all power in heaven and earth' and the departed saints are present with him,,,,what are they doing today?

 

[felix]

So to you it is more glorious for Christ to force men to obey by direct power than for him to be seated at the Right hand of the Father?

I doubt you believe that yet it is required for your program.

There is no comparison of which is glorious but rather fulfillment of prophecy. To prove a position, no scripture verse must be contradicted.