why modern premillenialism fails

[jasoncran]

that book is hard to find online. i want to use that part to show why its wrong but i cant find it online. is there any online copy?

 

[Hitch]

that book is hard to find online. i want to use that part to show why its wrong but i cant find it online. is there any online copy?

LOL yeah but it doesnt come with page numbers..


http://bartimaeus.us/pub_dom/dispensationalism.html


Your library or quite possibly your church will have 'Things To Come' though

 

[jasoncran]

ok thats going to be some reading, hmm perhaps we can disect it together. today i dont have that time. i will print it and pray and then commit when i get a chance.

 

[Hitch]

ok thats going to be some reading, hmm perhaps we can disect it together. today i dont have that time. i will print it and pray and then commit when i get a chance.

10 minutes in Things To Come' will make your socks roll up and down. :biglol

 

[jasoncran]

The Day of Jehovah, which extended period occupies so large a part of Old Testament prophecy, begins with the judgments of Jehovah in the earth, mentioned in the foregoing, and continues on including the return of Christ to the earth and all the millennial glory for Israel and the Gentiles. Zechariah 14:1-21 predicts the beginning of that long period, while 2 Peter 3:4-15 (note, in this connection, Peter declares "one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day") and Revelation 20:7-15 describe the end of that period. The whole extended "day" is characterized by the presence of Christ reigning on the earth with His Bride, by Satan being bound and in the abyss, and by the realization on Israel's part of all the glory and blessedness promised that people in Jehovah's covenants with them. More space than this thesis may claim would be required to quote even the major prophecies bearing on this theme (cf. Ps. 45:8-17; 72:1-20; Isa. 11:1-12:6; 54:1-55:13; 60:1-66:24; Jer. 23:5-8; 31:1-40; 33:1-26; Ezek. 34:11-31; 36:16-38; 37:1-14; 40:1--48:35; Dan. 2:44-45; 7:13-14; Zech. 14:1-21; Mal. 4:1-6). These promises are all of an earthly glory and concern a land which Jehovah has given as an everlasting possession to His elect people, Israel, to whom He said, "I have loved thee with an everlasting love" (Jer. 31:3). Little consideration, indeed, is given to the confusion or inconsistencies which arise when, under a spiritualizing method of interpretation, these blessings which are addressed to the elect nation and related to their land and King are applied to an elect heavenly people called out from all nations to whom no land has ever been given, and who are not now or at any future time said to be subjects of the King. There is no scholarly reason for applying the Scriptures which bear upon the past, the present, or the future of Israel to any other people than that nation of whom these Scriptures speak. The real unity of the Bible is preserved only by those who observe with care the divine program for Gentiles, for Jews, and for Christians in their individual and unchanging continuity

there, a jew today is part of the church once saved. theres no difference in christ. paul states that clearly. for there is neither greek nor jew nor male nor female but righteous and unrightoeus.

 

[felix]

What is it about Jesus you dont like Felix?
John 6:54
Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.


24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Thus the living believer has eternal life. Now .

(1John 2:25) And this is the promise that He has promised us -- eternal life.
(Titus 1:2) in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,

Eternal Life is a promise.
Eternal Life is a hope.

No one had ever received Eternal life as it is a promise and hope.

(John 6:54) "Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

If someone already has eternal life, why should christ raise him up on the last day? Shouldn't he be living? Because, eternal life is hidden in Christ as per Col 3:3.

 

[Hitch]

(1John 2:25) And this is the promise that He has promised us -- eternal life.
(Titus 1:2) in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,

Eternal Life is a promise.
Eternal Life is a hope.

No one had ever received Eternal life as it is a promise and hope.

(John 6:54) "Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

If someone already has eternal life, why should christ raise him up on the last day? Shouldn't he be living? Because, eternal life is hidden in Christ as per Col 3:3.

Like I told you before ,you dont have to believe what Jesus said about it , but you'll never get straight that way.

Why should Christ raise him up?

Because ,for reasons only God knows, he wants his people to have materiel bodies. New models that wont break down or be affected by time.

This is why the 'First Resurrection ' is so important, contrary to what you posted , every believer M UST have a part in the first resurrection (spiritual) because not every one will be raised physically.

 

[felix]

Like I told you before ,you dont have to believe what Jesus said about it , but you'll never get straight that way.

Why should Christ raise him up?

Because ,for reasons only God knows, he wants his people to have materiel bodies. New models that wont break down or be affected by time.

This is why the 'First Resurrection ' is so important, contrary to what you posted , every believer M UST have a part in the first resurrection (spiritual) because not every one will be raised physically.

Resurrection is not a rebirth or a born again experience but dead coming back to life. I think this is a mistake in assuming this. Scripture clearly tells us that there are only 2 resurrections: just and unjust.

There are only 2 resurrections mentioned: resurrection of the just and unjust
(Luke 14:14) "And you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you; for you shall be repaid at the resurrection of the just."
(Acts 24:15) "I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of [the] dead, both of [the] just and [the] unjust.

 

[Hitch]

Resurrection is not a rebirth or a born again experience but dead coming back to life. I think this is a mistake in assuming this. Scripture clearly tells us that there are only 2 resurrections: just and unjust.

There are only 2 resurrections mentioned: resurrection of the just and unjust
(Luke 14:14) "And you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you; for you shall be repaid at the resurrection of the just."
(Acts 24:15) "I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of [the] dead, both of [the] just and [the] unjust.

• Ephesians 2:1
  And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
  Ephesians 2:1-3 (in Context) Ephesians 2 (Whole Chapter)
• Ephesians 2:5
  Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Ephesians 2:6
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Colossians 2:13
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

• 1 John 3:14
  We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
  
  

John 5:25
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

What ever you say Felix.

 

[felix]

• Ephesians 2:1
  And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
  Ephesians 2:1-3 (in Context) Ephesians 2 (Whole Chapter)
• Ephesians 2:5
  Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Ephesians 2:6
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Colossians 2:13
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

• 1 John 3:14
  We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
  
  

John 5:25
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

What ever you say Felix.

Hitch, you are missing the important point in Christ's words. Christ Himself had used the word 'resurrection' in His sayings. If resurrection is same as 'born again in spirit', why He didn't use the word resurrection there?

 

[Hitch]

Hitch, you are missing the important point in Christ's words. Christ Himself had used the word 'resurrection' in His sayings. If resurrection is same as 'born again in spirit', why He didn't use the word resurrection there?

Well what are the reasons you use different terms sometimes?

Case in point;

I reckon you and I agree that in John 6 Jesus is speaking future bodily resurrection. But not once in this chapter does he say 'resurrection '.

 

[felix]

Well what are the reasons you use different terms sometimes?

Case in point;

I reckon you and I agree that in John 6 Jesus is speaking future bodily resurrection. But not once in this chapter does he say 'resurrection '.

Scripture does point out in raising up in the last day indirectly referring to resurrection referred in (John 11:24) Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."

Resurrection is only on the last day.

 

[Hitch]

Scripture does point out in raising up in the last day indirectly referring to resurrection referred in (John 11:24) Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."

Resurrection is only on the last day.

Originally Posted by felix There are two resurrections.

Tribulation => First resurrection (Rev 20:5) => 1000 yr reign => second resurrection (Rev 20:13a) => Judgment (Rev 20:13b)=> New Heavens and Earth.

So which is it? There can only be one 'last day' .

 

[jasoncran]

felix read what the bible says on the new heavens and earth and those are used by those links that say in the new heaveans and earth so and so will be.

that means something. it can be a limited curse removal(my favorite) as well hmm somehow our new bodies will need food.

i wonder what death and resurrection will occur in the millenium as it wont be able to be taught from our bible. that occured. so what will be preached to the lost. all bets on that take a wierd exegital departure.

 

[felix]

So which is it? There can only be one 'last day' .

'last day' refers to second resurrection because the first resurrection does not include all and neither Martha was referring to it, but only the people who were beheaded for Christ and His testimony will live to see first resurrection.

There is also another explanation for it: A day includes evening and morning - night and day. As God Himself defined darkness as night and light as day, We now live in darkness as in John 12:35. When Christ comes here, it will be day. I don't think we really require any sun for being a day when Christ comes in His full glory either.

Hence last day has several good literal and spiritual explanations but neither seems to support what you say.

 

[jasoncran]

so the greeks have the word like yom which can mean ages? if so post?

yom in context can mean an age but it doesnt. remember what i will post later on why it cant be.

 

[Hitch]

'last day' refers to second resurrection because the first resurrection does not include all and neither Martha was referring to it, but only the people who were beheaded for Christ and His testimony will live to see first resurrection.

Nonsense. First off Ive already mentioned that Pete would not qualify or any other of the thousands of believers martyred in any other fashion.:toofunny:toofunny:toofunny Second you added 'only' and that is not in the text.

There is also another explanation for it: A day includes evening and morning - night and day. As God Himself defined darkness as night and light as day, We now live in darkness as in John 12:35. When Christ comes here, it will be day. I don't think we really require any sun for being a day when Christ comes in His full glory either.

Hence last day has several good literal and spiritual explanations but neither seems to support what you say.

What I say is that this will be fulfilled on the last day;
8Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.



But I have to admit I only say that because its waht Jesus said, silly me. And its fits just fine, just like everything Jesus taught.

 

[felix]

8Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


But I have to admit I only say that because its waht Jesus said, silly me. And its fits just fine, just like everything Jesus taught.

No it doesn't fit fine. So, where are the resurrection of damnation now?

(John 6:39) "This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

If resurrection had already occurred, how about the people who had not been born at that time like you and me? Christ Himself said that.

Jesus was saying what is already said in Dan 12:1-2.
"At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands [watch] over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, [Even] to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.

Before any resurrection (just and unjust) to happen, there has to be a "time of trouble".

(Mark 13:20) "And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

Regarding the tribulation (or) time of trouble, Christ said, "no flesh would be saved", which means, it is a global persecution not a local one.

 

[Hitch]

No it doesn't fit fine. So, where are the resurrection of damnation now?

(John 6:39) "This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

If resurrection had already occurred, how about the people who had not been born at that time like you and me? Christ Himself said that.

Look outside Felix, if the sun came up where you live then the last day has yet to materielize.

Jesus was saying what is already said in Dan 12:1-2.
"At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands [watch] over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, [Even] to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame [and] everlasting contempt.

Before any resurrection (just and unjust) to happen, there has to be a "time of trouble".

You have no doubt heard of the destruction of Jerusalem ,yes, and the covenantal dissolution of ancient Israel ?

(Mark 13:20) "And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

Regarding the tribulation (or) time of trouble, Christ said, "no flesh would be saved", which means, it is a global persecution not a local one.

Un huh and thats why you left out 'Jacob's Trouble'?

Hey if you want you can prove from the bible that the sun actually rises and that God has wings and goes about melting mountains. And Jesus is a plant. ho hum





I suggest you review what Jesus said beginning in Matthew 21;33 and on to chapter 24. You will find that of all history only very few were destined to live when Jesus lived. And a fraction of that group was formed by the apostate Jews of the time and upon them is declared 'wrath to the uttermost'. ONLY they could possibly shed Christ's blood, no future generation will have Christ here in the flesh,mortal. No generation before the first century had Christ present in the body,mortal. Only that generation and that nation and that place of prophetic fulfillment could ever be the one place in time and space that was capable of committing the regicide. It is the regicide, the murder of Israel's born king that is the stated reason for the destruction . The holy vengeance came for that specific purpose, it came in history as did Christ. It came to pass.

 

[felix]

Un huh and thats why you left out 'Jacob's Trouble'?

Hey if you want you can prove from the bible that the sun actually rises and that God has wings and goes about melting mountains. And Jesus is a plant. ho hum

Let me put this way...
(Matt 15:24) But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

Jesus Christ did NOT sent for Gentiles. However, through His death, the middle wall of separation is broken and we are citizens of commonwealth of Israel as in Eph 2:11-14 and now we are as one flock with one shepherd as in John 10:16. Scripture also says in Rom 9:24-26 that Gentiles were includes and grafted in as in Rom 11:17.

You must understand that the Olive tree was just grafted - not replaced. Scripture also explains who is a Jew: Rom 2:28-29. Also, Gal 3:28-29 clearly explains only the followers of Christ are Abraham's seed and heirs according to promise.

Now, Christians including Jews who believe in Christ and follow His commandments in every way are the actual Jews (Abraham's seed) or Israelites (heirs according to promise) through Him not the people who call themselves as Jews just because they are born into a Jewish family.

Now, according to scriptures, if you are expecting "Jacob's Trouble" only for people who are born in Jewish family, then you are terribly mistaken.