Why wasn't Jesus eternally tormented?

[P31Woman]

"Eye for an eye"

So in your eyes rejecting Christ and embracing sin/satan is justly punished by annihilation.

In your opinion that is the right amount of punishment.


To be honest with you I have never considered annihilation as punishment.

Let me demonstrate how irrational this claim is.

Our country as well as others holds Capital Punishment.. being put to death as the HIGHEST form of punishment we have. To contrast that, the only countries who torture people as a punishment are savage brutish uncivilized nations that largely do not exist anymore.

To say being put to death is not really a punishment is frankly quite ridiculous... as it is realized not only in the Bible but in our culture as the TOP punishment.

What the "traditional" view has conceptualized as a "punishment" is no where recognized as exacting justice in either the Bible or civilized society in any kind of real life situation. No one is going to torture you for stealing, nor in ancient Israel were people tortured for crimes they committed, the most severe it would get was that they would be stoned which resulted in death. It's an idea of justice and punishment that has no grounding in reality or any biblical idea of what that actually entails. As if the suffering a person for eternity puts right what was done wrong...

OK so I see your "thoughts" on the matter. Is it possible that God's thoughts are more advanced and complete than yours?

 

[francisdesales]

What if our nations performed justice in a way you believe God will one day perform it? What if we instead of simply putting you in prison or putting you to death.. decided instead to torture you for the rest of your life.

Perhaps the "torture" you envision is not "whips and chains", but rather, the mental "torture" that we disobeyed God, which separates us from the meaning and purpose of our existence. That we had it within our means, but chose not to do it. I don't think it is necessary to envision hell as Dante's Inferno.

Hell is eternal separation from God.

What an INDECENCY people would think, for the fallen man even understands the dignity that a human life possesses. I do not believe that God would torture men and women who bear his image forever and ever and call that justice.

Given that God has freely given a means that fallen humans can come to God, I would focus more on God's mercy to saving many - potentially EVERYONE - rather than faulting God's justice that deservedly would fall on everyone if not for Christ's work. God is providing a place that people want to go - separate from Him in hell.

Regards

 

[Free]

I do not believe the Scriptures teach that the lost will spend an eternity in hell. I will not give all my reasons in detail in this post, but I will offer the following:

1. The idea of an eternal hell is at odds with the general thrust of a specifically restorative sense of justice we see in the Bible;

What do you believe gets restored--everything, or only those things which choose to get restored (realizing of course that choosing is a distinctly human ability)?

2. Some texts which describe things like "smoke of their torment" rises forever need to be interpreted taking account of other texts. More specifically, there is at least one Old Testament text where we know that reference to "smoke rising forever" is not to be taken literally - the prophecy in Isaiah about destruction of the nation of Edom. Last time I checked, there is no smoke rising now over Edom. It is time for us to be a little more sophisticated in our reading and recognize that Biblical writers were aware of literary devices like metaphor, allegory, and exaggeration.

I'm not sure if you've seen my argument against the same argument made from Jude, but if at the time of writing such things, the smoke had still been rising, and had been for quite some time, it might have seemed to the writer that the smoke indeed would rise forever. Hence, in taking such statements within that sort of context, we must understand that the author really did intend to mean that the smoke would rise forever.

3. We need to recognize that fire consumes that which is put into it.

Could this fire not also be considered as metaphor or allegory? I'm not sure why we would need to consider only this fire as a literal fire that actually consumes and relegate other associated ideas as metaphor.

4. There is at least the possibility that, for some anyway, the notion of an eternal hell appeals to our less than Christlike desire to see others "get theirs". Now I recognize this is not a particularly strong argument as it entails speculation about motivation. One could equally argue that we Christians "invented" eternal life precisely because of a deep wish to continue existing. And I would challenge that by saying that while it is true that I want to live forever, that wish does not necessarily mean that eternal life is not real.

Agreed, that is a possibility for some.

Anyway, I suspect I will provide more detailed arguments in later posts.

I suspect so as well. ;)

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Got a reference on that? Because I sure don't see it anywhere. On the other hand, I do see these ...

Ecclesiastes 12 NASB
5 Furthermore, men are afraid of a high place and of terrors on the road; the almond tree blossoms, the grasshopper drags himself along, and the caperberry is ineffective. For man goes to his eternal home while mourners go about in the street. [emphasis added]

Matthew 19
29 "And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name's sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life. [emphasis added]

Matthew 25
41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;"
​

All souls are eternal. Their fate is determined by their faith in this life. One goes to eternal life, the other to eternal death in the eternal fire, death being separation from God. This is basic stuff. Why do you want to pervert it?

This is my second time referencing this Scripture in response to you.. the first time I included the reference.

Let's look at it in several translations so it's message can't be warped.

who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen. 1 Timothy 6:16 (NASB)

who alone has immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no one has ever seen or can see. To him be honor and eternal dominion. Amen. 1 Timothy 6:16 (ESV)

who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen. 1 Timothy 6:16 (NIV)

Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen. 1 Timothy 6:16 (KJV)

the only One who has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light; no one has seen or can see Him, to Him be honor and eternal might. Amen. 1 Timothy 6:16 (HCSB)

who only is having immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable, whom no one of men did see, nor is able to see, to whom is honour and might age-during! Amen. 1 Timothy 6:16 (YLT)

Ecclesiastes 12 NASB
5 Furthermore, men are afraid of a high place and of terrors on the road; the almond tree blossoms, the grasshopper drags himself along, and the caperberry is ineffective. For man goes to his eternal home while mourners go about in the street. [emphasis added]

This shows an ignorance of not only of what Solomon said other places in Eccelsiasties where he says that the dead know and do nothing, but also of what this text means.

"Everlasting house" is the name for the grave of the dead, according to Diodorus Sic. i. 51, also among the Egyptians, and on old Lat. monuments also the expression domus aeterna is found (vid., Knobel); the comfortless designation, which corresponds

(Note: The Syr. renders beth 'olam by domus laboris sui, which is perhaps to be understood after Job 3:17.)

to the as yet darkened idea of Hades, remained with the Jews in spite of the hope of the resurrection they had meanwhile received; cf. Tob. 3:6; Sanhedrin 19a, "the churchyard of Huṣal;" "to be a churchyard" (beth 'olam); "at the door of the churchyard" (beth 'olam), Vajikra rabba, c. 12. Cf. Assyr. bit 'idii equals עד בּית of the under-world (Bab.-Assyr. Epic, "Hllenfahrt der Istar," i.4).

(Biblical Commentary on the Old Testament, by Carl Friedrich Keil and Franz Delitzsch [1857-78])

Matthew 19
29 "And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name's sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life. [emphasis added]

Amen, only those who believe in Jesus will inherit everlasting life in the new creation, we don't believe those who reject Jesus will have life forever and ever. We believe they perish, see John 3:16.

Matthew 25
41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;"

What does eternal fire do? See Jude 7... It utterly destroys.

All souls are eternal.

GOD ALONE IS ETERNAL AND IMMORTAL! Only by being joined with him through Christ may we attain to this.

Their fate is determined by their faith in this life. One goes to eternal life, the other to eternal death in the eternal fire, death being separation from God. This is basic stuff. Why do you want to pervert it?

You attempt to belittle me and insult me by calling this "basic" stuff and that I am trying to pervert it will not do as I 100% proved that you are in direct contradiction with Scripture. The perversion is all yours..

 

[Free]

What if our nations performed justice in a way you believe God will one day perform it? What if we instead of simply putting you in prison or putting you to death.. decided instead to torture you for the rest of your life.

Perhaps the "torture" you envision is not "whips and chains", but rather, the mental "torture" that we disobeyed God, which separates us from the meaning and purpose of our existence. That we had it within our means, but chose not to do it. I don't think it is necessary to envision hell as Dante's Inferno.

Hell is eternal separation from God.

And that is something I have maintained as well. I think the whole idea of people literally burning in pain and being otherwise physically tortured forever is rather a Straw Man, albeit it is an idea that even many believers in an eternal hell seem to follow.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

OK so I see your "thoughts" on the matter. Is it possible that God's thoughts are more advanced and complete than yours?

Absolutely, that is why I refer to God's Word first and foremost in my OP and MANY other posts to base my arguments on then I appeal to these arguments that are also powerful.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

And that is something I have maintained as well. I think the whole idea of people literally burning in pain and being otherwise physically tortured forever is rather a Straw Man, albeit it is an idea that even many believers in an eternal hell seem to follow.

The idea that a person is tortured in that they are either physically or mentally tormented in a state of suffering, great pain is consistent with your view and the means by which that is administered is irrelevant. I have not alluded to a specific form of torture with which to caricature your view therefore you cannot say that I am creating a Straw man argument.

 

[farouk]

Just look at what the Lord Jesus endured, in the language of the sufferings of the servant in Isaiah 53.

Sin does need to be punished.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Just look at what the Lord Jesus endured, in the language of the sufferings of the servant in Isaiah 53.

Sin does need to be punished.

Indeed, he tasted death for everyone.

But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone. Hebrews 2:9 (NASB)

Also to free us from the fear of death by overcoming the one who had the power of death, the devil..

Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, Hebrews 2:14 (NASB)

You See DEATH was what Jesus was overcoming on our behalf on the Cross!

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen. 1 Timothy 6:16 (NASB)

Misinterpretation of the word "alone" which is the Greek monos. It means He possesses it without assistance or help. It doesn't say He is the only one who has it. He has given it to all souls eternally, with their eternal destiny determined by their faith, or lack thereof, in this life.

This shows an ignorance of not only of what Solomon said other places in Eccelsiasties where he says that the dead know and do nothing, but also of what this text means.

First, your arrogance in calling me "ignorant" has earned you a permanent ban, following this post, from ever having to deal with it again. Secondly, Solomon speaks of the physical body as having no knowledge, not the eternal soul. You need to do some research on the Hebrew before you go around declaring what passages mean when you really don't know. English is not a sufficient language for understanding the nuances of the original languages.

Amen, only those who believe in Jesus will inherit everlasting life in the new creation, we don't believe those who reject Jesus will have life forever and ever. We believe they perish, see John 3:16.

And yet they Bible also says they are sent to hell for "eternal destruction." The fact torment and destruction can be eternal escapes you.

What does eternal fire do? See Jude 7... It utterly destroys.

And then there is 1 Timothy 1:9, which plainly states "eternal destruction" as I've stated in the paragraph above.

GOD ALONE IS ETERNAL AND IMMORTAL!

You can put it in all caps, embolden and italicize it, heck, fly it from the tail of an airplane, if you want. It won't make that declaration right.

You attempt to belittle me and insult me by calling this "basic" stuff and that I am trying to pervert it will not do as I 100% proved that you are in direct contradiction with Scripture. The perversion is all yours..

As you wish. Have a blessed life.

 

[Guest]

We have a just God,and no crime whatsoever I don't care what it is,warrants eternal torture

Yes, he is a just God that HATES sin! Hell wasn't meant for souls, do you understand? We all have a choice. What do you think of John 3:3?

I could go into John 3:3 ,but that would start a whole new discussion,but can I ask you a question....Do you think you existed prior to your birth?

No the lake of fire was not created for us,however those who choose not to follow Christ will have their part in that lake which was made for satan and his angels....This leads to my next question,what does the 2nd death mean to you as per the below verse

Revelation 21:8 "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

Changed my mind,think I will respond toJohn 3:3

It simply means to be born from above,as we are all with the father before birth,thus you have my answer to the question I posed to you

Also what is the first death?

Who knows if I existed prior to birth, and honestly who really cares. If I did, I can't remember who I was so that's that. What do you mean by follow Christ? Do you mean go to church every sunday like religion teaches you or do you mean repent of your sins fully so the body of Christ can actually dwell inside of you? I think Revelation 21:8 is talking about people who have died, and their heart as stopped beating, second death is when you die, heart stops beating. John 3:3 is referring to being born a second time; first time is through mothers womb, second time is through the Holy Spirit in this lifetime. You must be born of the Holy Spirit in this lifetime in order to live with God after you die. The first death is death to sin and alive in God, repenting of your sins is the first death. You now walk by faith and not by sight.

 

[Drew]

What do you believe gets restored--everything, or only those things which choose to get restored (realizing of course that choosing is a distinctly human ability)?

Only those things that choose to be restored.

I'm not sure if you've seen my argument against the same argument made from Jude, but....

I don't have time to think about this too much, but I would broaden my point to assert that its clear that for at least some texts a "literal" reading is not intended. Perhaps I will return to this, and I would anticipate that, at the very least, its debatable as to whether references to "eternal torment" are to be taken literally.

Could this fire not also be considered as metaphor or allegory? I'm not sure why we would need to consider only this fire as a literal fire that actually consumes and relegate other associated ideas as metaphor.

This is possible, but my expectation would be (based on my memory of having discussed the issue of annihilation a long time ago) that there is indeed Biblical precedent for "smoke rising forever" being used metaphorically. I have not read your argument on Jude, but the Isaiah text has the prophet predicting the fall of Edom and asserting that smoke would "rise forever" from Edom. Of course, Edom did fall and, of course, we see no smoke. So how is the prophet not engaging in poetic licence?

 

[Drew]

As another "objection" to the eternal torment position, I will raise an issue that I am sure others have raised. Writers such as Paul assert that death is the result of rejecting the gospel. One has to then re-define death to denote life under condition of great torment. That seems like too much of a leap. People on the "eternal torment" side of the discussion sometimes solve this problem by drawing a distinction between "physical" death and "spiritual" death> This distinction, I suggest, is nowhere drawn in the scriptures - its a concept informed by Platonic thinking that gets imported into the reading (in my view).

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Misinterpretation of the word "alone" which is the Greek monos. It means He possesses it without assistance or help. It doesn't say He is the only one who has it. He has given it to all souls eternally, with their eternal destiny determined by their faith, or lack thereof, in this life.

My misinterpretation of the Word alone?! Please don't tell me you're an expert on the original language because you're simply not.

Lets site some resources that demonstrate this great error...

Who only hath immortality (ὁ μονος ἐχων ἀθανασιαν [ho monos echōn athanasian]). “The one who alone has immortality.” Ἀθανασια [Athanasia] (ἀθανατος [athanatos], α [a] privative and θανατος [thanatos]), old word, in N.T. only here and I Cor. 15:53f. Domitian demanded that he be addressed as “Dominus et Deus noster.” Emperor worship may be behind the use of μονος [monos] (alone) here. Unapproachable (ἀπροσιτον [aprositon]). See Psa. 104:2.

God alone is “immortal”—literally, “the only one having immortality” (athanasia, only here and 1 Cor 15:53, 54). The Greek word comes from a-negative and thanatos, “death.” So it means “not subject to death.”
The idea of immortality is not clearly expressed in the OT (see note below). But the NT teaching is that God alone has inherent immortality; ours is derived from him.

You see it is because he is refuting Caesar worship where they believed Caesar to be immortal, he proclaimed that God alone innately possesses immortality. There is no where in the usage of this word that supports your conclusion. That is why you will find no interpretation in any reputable commentary or lexicon. Instead they all agree with my interpretation.

I am sending this from my phone but I will deal with this post in much more detail once I get back to my computer.

 

[Drew]

Sin does need to be punished

I am not sure this is really a Biblical idea. Sin needs to be "wiped away" and / or "dealth with", but I am not convinced that there is some sort of immutable principle of divine justice whereby somebody needs to be punished for sin. And yes, I am aware that this places me in a camp which has a "non-standard" interpretation of the nature of the atonement.

 

[Free]

As another "objection" to the eternal torment position, I will raise an issue that I am sure others have raised. Writers such as Paul assert that death is the result of rejecting the gospel. One has to then re-define death to denote life under condition of great torment. That seems like too much of a leap. People on the "eternal torment" side of the discussion sometimes solve this problem by drawing a distinction between "physical" death and "spiritual" death> This distinction, I suggest, is nowhere drawn in the scriptures - its a concept informed by Platonic thinking that gets imported into the reading (in my view).

And at the same time Paul speaks of the need to be reconciled to God. The whole reason we are in this mess is due to the sin of Adam and Eve, which separated us from God. So in a very real sense, rejecting God does result in spiritual separation from Him, which is what is most often mean by "spiritual death."

 

[farouk]

We need to remember 'the exceeding sinfulness of sin' and the holy character of God, Who dwells in light inapprochable. The wondrous work of the Lord Jesus at the Cross means He took on Himself unimaginable torment so that those who love and trust Him in faith and repentance need not receive the due and just penalty for their sin. The Cross was far, far more than a notional device whereby God could somehow excuse sin. It cost the Savior everything.

 

[P31Woman]

[
And at the same time Paul speaks of the need to be reconciled to God. The whole reason we are in this mess is due to the sin of Adam and Eve, which separated us from God. So in a very real sense, rejecting God does result in spiritual separation from Him, which is what is most often mean by "spiritual death."

Yes and one of the things that the resurrection allowed was for Jesus to be our mediator. Now we can go boldly before the Throne of God. The resurrection also allowed the Holy Spirit of God to come live in those of us who have died to self and live for Christ.

 

[Drew]

We need to remember 'the exceeding sinfulness of sin' and the holy character of God, Who dwells in light inapprochable. The wondrous work of the Lord Jesus at the Cross means He took on Himself unimaginable torment so that those who love and trust Him in faith and repentance need not receive the due and just penalty for their sin. The Cross was far, far more than a notional device whereby God could somehow excuse sin. It cost the Savior everything.

I am questioning whether it is Biblical that some person needs to be punished in order for sin to be dealt with. Yes, Jesus suffered greatly, but I believe this was not because he was being punished per se. In fact, Romans 8:3 states that it is "sin", not Jesus, that is punished (condemned) at the cross.

I believe this notion that God has a need to "punish" somebody is not there in the Bible. Besides, how can a God who needs to punish people turn around and suggest that we are to forgive people?

You appear to be re-asseritng a commonly conceptualization, but can you make the case that its Biblical?

 

[Free]

And that is something I have maintained as well. I think the whole idea of people literally burning in pain and being otherwise physically tortured forever is rather a Straw Man, albeit it is an idea that even many believers in an eternal hell seem to follow.

The idea that a person is tortured in that they are either physically or mentally tormented in a state of suffering, great pain is consistent with your view and the means by which that is administered is irrelevant. I have not alluded to a specific form of torture with which to caricature your view therefore you cannot say that I am creating a Straw man argument.

I was only addressing what francisdesale said, with no reference to you.

Certainly you can admit that there are people out there who reject an eternal hell simply because they believe the Bible teaches some sort of physical torture for eternity? There are those in this forum who have done just that. But even though unbelievers may spend eternity in hell, it does not mean that physical punishment or torture will last for eternity.