Why wasn't Jesus eternally tormented?

[Drew]

And at the same time Paul speaks of the need to be reconciled to God. The whole reason we are in this mess is due to the sin of Adam and Eve, which separated us from God. So in a very real sense, rejecting God does result in spiritual separation from Him, which is what is most often mean by "spiritual death."

I think we all agree that the sin of Adam and Eve indeed separates us from God. But how does it follow from this belief that, upon physical death, those who are unredeemed experience a state of eternal conscious torment?

 

[farouk]

We need to remember 'the exceeding sinfulness of sin' and the holy character of God, Who dwells in light inapprochable. The wondrous work of the Lord Jesus at the Cross means He took on Himself unimaginable torment so that those who love and trust Him in faith and repentance need not receive the due and just penalty for their sin. The Cross was far, far more than a notional device whereby God could somehow excuse sin. It cost the Savior everything.

I am questioning whether it is Biblical that some person needs to be punished in order for sin to be dealt with. Yes, Jesus suffered greatly, but I believe this was not because he was being punished per se. In fact, Romans 8:3 states that it is "sin", not Jesus, that is punished (condemned) at the cross.

I believe this notion that God has a need to "punish" somebody is not there in the Bible. Besides, how can a God who needs to punish people turn around and suggest that we are to forgive people?

You appear to be re-asseritng a commonly conceptualization, but can you make the case that its Biblical?

Hebrews 1.3

 

[Free]

And at the same time Paul speaks of the need to be reconciled to God. The whole reason we are in this mess is due to the sin of Adam and Eve, which separated us from God. So in a very real sense, rejecting God does result in spiritual separation from Him, which is what is most often mean by "spiritual death."

I think we all agree that the sin of Adam and Eve indeed separates us from God. But how does it follow from this belief that, upon physical death, those who are unredeemed experience a state of eternal conscious torment?

The Bible shows there will be varying levels of punishment, so that happens at some point, but I don't think that happens until after judgment. Of course one must consider whether this is done in the body or as a disembodied soul. I think a case could be made (by someone much smarter than I) that it would be done in the body.

 

[Drew]

Hebrews 1.3

This text does not support your case. Here it is:

Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

How does the fact that Jesus purged our sins mean He was punished? I can speak of a medecine purging a virus from my body.

But am I being punished?

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Misinterpretation of the word "alone" which is the Greek monos. It means He possesses it without assistance or help. It doesn't say He is the only one who has it. He has given it to all souls eternally, with their eternal destiny determined by their faith, or lack thereof, in this life.

Let's critic this some more if it wasn't clear enough from my last post.

You said "it doesn't say he is the only one who has it." When that is EXACTLY what the text says.

who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen. 1 Timothy 6:16

Do I have to quote every major translation again to demonstrate this is what it says.

You also raised the objection that this Word μόνος means that he possesses immortality without assistance. Let's look at it's usage in other passages.

After He had sent the crowds away, He went up on the mountain by Himself to pray; and when it was evening, He was there alone. Matthew 14:23

The same Greek word μόνος is employed here and what does it mean? Does it mean that Jesus was up on the mountain to pray without assistance? Or was it declaring that he was alone.. all by himself..

"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone." Matthew 26:36 (NASB)

Here we have Jesus declaring that the Father alone.. the Father is the only one who has knowledge of the day. This further proves you wrong..

When it was evening, the boat was in the middle of the sea, and He was alone on the land. Mark 6:47 (NASB)

Jesus was all by himself on the boat, it is not describing him being on the boat without assistance.

The scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, "Who is this man who speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" Luke 5:21 (NASB)

Can God alone forgive sins without assistance, or is God the only one who can forgive sins? The meaning is plain.

And when the voice had spoken, Jesus was found alone. And they kept silent, and reported to no one in those days any of the things which they had seen. Luke 9:36 (NASB)

Yet another text that refutes your claim.

So Jesus, perceiving that they were intending to come and take Him by force to make Him king, withdrew again to the mountain by Himself alone. John 6:15 (NASB)

Jesus doesn't need help from anyone to get on mountains!!

which He will bring about at the proper time-- He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 1 Timothy 6:15

I could quote at least 20 more texts that prove you wrong, but I'll end with this one because it appears in the verse RIGHT BEFORE v.16. God is the ONLY Sovereign, just as he alone possesses Immortality. This further refutes the earthly kingdom of Rome and the worship of Caesar, that he doesn't really rule but God alone rules and is immortal.

You're demonstrably wrong on this point..

First, your arrogance in calling me "ignorant" has earned you a permanent ban, following this post, from ever having to deal with it again. Secondly, Solomon speaks of the physical body as having no knowledge, not the eternal soul. You need to do some research on the Hebrew before you go around declaring what passages mean when you really don't know. English is not a sufficient language for understanding the nuances of the original languages.

Well I won't let my statement of your ignorance go unbacked up don't worry about that, it's not an insult to say someone doesn't know something, that just means they still have more to learn like we all do. What I also find interesting is that you basically say the SAME THING about me, saying that I "really don't know" or the implication that I don't understand the nuances of the original languages and indeed need to research Hebrew first. (as if YOU do....)

The OT consistently teaches that there is not activity, physical or spiritual of any kind in Sheol. Eccelsiastes is consistent with this.

But he who is joined with all the living has hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion. For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun. Ecclesiastes 9:4-6 (ESV)

Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might, for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, to which you are going. Ecclesiastes 9:10 (ESV)

These are the texts that you are ignorant of... or perhaps rather misinterpret as they imply that all the activity of life ceases in Sheol, where there is no thought or knowledge or wisdom. Note these are not physical activities done with the body, but with the mind.. or Soul. There is none of this in Sheol which all who died then would be going.

I don't see anything in the Original Hebrew that contradicts my interpretation, in fact I sited a resource that refers to literature outside of the OT that referred to the Grave also commonly being referred to as the "eternal home" which also fits the context which is an allegory that talks growing progressively older until we go to our death in the grave.

Do you read Greek or Hebrew or have any kind of training on these languages?

And yet they Bible also says they are sent to hell for "eternal destruction." The fact torment and destruction can be eternal escapes you.

That's because they are contradictory concepts, torment is used in Revelation which is apocalyptic literature. You err in interpreting the language literally rather than recognizing the genre and studying the particular genre in more detail where we find similar texts in the OT that absolutely cannot be interpreted literally such as Isaiah 34:8-10 which uses the EXACT SAME LANGUAGE as is used in Revelation to describe the coming judgement.

And then there is 1 Timothy 1:9, which plainly states "eternal destruction" as I've stated in the paragraph above.

1 Timothy 1:9 does not say that. lol

You can put it in all caps, embolden and italicize it, heck, fly it from the tail of an airplane, if you want. It won't make that declaration right.

Actually I can do that, and also site reputable sources that agree as well as examine the usages throughout the rest of the NT Canon as well as the surrounding context to prove you wrong. God alone has immortality, I'm sorry you can't believe Scripture...

As you wish. Have a blessed life.

Let love be without hypocrisy Romans 12:9a (NASB)

That is all...

 

[Doulos Iesou]

And that is something I have maintained as well. I think the whole idea of people literally burning in pain and being otherwise physically tortured forever is rather a Straw Man, albeit it is an idea that even many believers in an eternal hell seem to follow.

The idea that a person is tortured in that they are either physically or mentally tormented in a state of suffering, great pain is consistent with your view and the means by which that is administered is irrelevant. I have not alluded to a specific form of torture with which to caricature your view therefore you cannot say that I am creating a Straw man argument.

I was only addressing what francisdesale said, with no reference to you.

Certainly you can admit that there are people out there who reject an eternal hell simply because they believe the Bible teaches some sort of physical torture for eternity? There are those in this forum who have done just that. But even though unbelievers may spend eternity in hell, it does not mean that physical punishment or torture will last for eternity.

Ahh I see, well you quoted me and that is why I responded.

I agree and admit that people reject it on those grounds, but I do not.

 

[Drew]

Of course one must consider whether this is done in the body or as a disembodied soul. I think a case could be made (by someone much smarter than I) that it would be done in the body.

As I believe you know, I am not a believer in the concept of a disembodied soul. And I agree that people do indeed get punished. Note: There is a key distinction between saying that in order for us to be saved, God needs to punish Jesus, on the one hand, and saying that God does indeed punish human beings. I am pretty sure I have not drawn that distinction before, so people might understandably not understand my position.

I believe the essence of the atonement is not the punishment of Jesus, but rather the de-activation / disempowering / defeat of the power of sin (Romans 8:3). Yes, Jesus suffers and dies, but this is only because He is the vessel which holds the legitimage target - sin.

Does it not strike you as odd that to say that God punishes Jesus is to say that God reckons Jesus to be morally accountable for sin? Does that make sense to you? Please note: When I refer to the term "punishment", I understand it to entail the belief that the person being punished is factually accountable in a moral sense.

And the last person who is "accountable" here is Jesus.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I am not sure this is really a Biblical idea. Sin needs to be "wiped away" and / or "dealth with", but I am not convinced that there is some sort of immutable principle of divine justice whereby somebody needs to be punished for sin. And yes, I am aware that this places me in a camp which has a "non-standard" interpretation of the nature of the atonement.

Hi Drew,

Thanks for contributing to the thread. I can say that "sin needs to be punished" and you will simply disagree. What needs to be done here is evidence from Scripture must be provided to demonstrate this to you.

"Keep far from a false charge, and do not kill the innocent or the righteous, for I will not acquit the guilty." Exodus 23:7

What you seem to be leaving out is the concept of God being a Judge, this is something that is seen from Genesis to Revelation that God is going to render each one according to their deeds.. what they have done.

But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality. Romans 2:5-11

God WILL, notice the indicative mood that shows an absolute certainty to the action being performed. One day God WILL render to each one (us humans and angels) according to his works.

Your objections neglects this clearly and consistently biblical concept for Justice being performed on the last day where God's people will be Justified and unbelievers condemned.. Biblical language that demonstrates this "law-court" type scenario.

Sin must be punished because God is a Just judge, for God finds it abominable to let the guilty go unpunished.

then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge in the lust of defiling passion and despise authority. 2 Peter 3:9-10

Scripture can't be any more clear on this, I urge you to reconsider your position on the matter.

Blessings,
Servant of Jesus

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Writers such as Paul assert that death is the result of rejecting the gospel.

You folks are going to have to learn to differentiate between physical death and spiritual death. The word to which you refer is thanatos. Death of the body. It has nothing to do with spiritual death, which is separation from God, eternal torment and eternal destruction.

 

[VirginShallConceive]

Certainly you can admit that there are people out there who reject an eternal hell simply because they believe the Bible teaches some sort of physical torture for eternity? There are those in this forum who have done just that. But even though unbelievers may spend eternity in hell, it does not mean that physical punishment or torture will last for eternity.

I agree and admit that people reject it on those grounds, but I do not.

I agree with both Free and Doulos Iesou on this.

I think that a good reason for us to hash this out with conversation is that, I believe, many of the people who do believe in an eternal torture chamber are sending mixed messages to children. They tell the little children that an eternal torture chamber actually exists, but they don't act with the sense of urgency that most adults would respond with if an actual eternal torture chamber existed. So, these unfortunate children fall right into the routine of their teachers/parents/mentors and have to wait until adulthood, or at least until they have the ability and/or desire to come across posts like this on the internet, in order to square their desires with their actions and reality itself.

 

[Guest]

1st birth - mothers womb
2nd birth - born of Holy Spirit, dead to sin
3rd birth immortal bodies afterlife in heaven/new earth

1st death - repenting of sin, dead to sin, alive in God, alive in Holy Spirit
2nd death - heart stops beating
3rd death - judged and soul sent to hell

 

[Doulos Iesou]

You folks are going to have to learn to differentiate between physical death and spiritual death. The word to which you refer is thanatos. Death of the body. It has nothing to do with spiritual death, which is separation from God, eternal torment and eternal destruction.

Do you know what you just affirmed right here?

Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. Revelation 20:14 (NASB)

The word here for death is θάνατος (thanatos).

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23 (NASB)

The word here for death is θάνατος (thanatos).

and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them. Romans 1:32

The word here for death is θάνατος (thanatos).

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned-- Romans 5:12 (NASB)

The word here for death is θάνατος (thanatos).

From this we can draw that wages of sin is not "spiritual death" but physical death. That those who sin are worthy of a physical death not a "spiritual death." That the second death is not a "spiritual death" but a physical death.

You talk as if we need to learn all this about the Greek... YET you just refuted yourself with your own words. Do you reject your previous comments now?

 

[Doulos Iesou]

I agree with both Free and Doulos Iesou on this.

I think that a good reason for us to hash this out with conversation is that, I believe, many of the people who do believe in an eternal torture chamber are sending mixed messages to children. They tell the little children that an eternal torture chamber actually exists, but they don't act with the sense of urgency that most adults would respond with if an actual eternal torture chamber existed. So, these unfortunate children fall right into the routine of their teachers/parents/mentors and have to wait until adulthood, or at least until they have the ability and/or desire to come across posts like this on the internet, in order to square their desires with their actions and reality itself.

Yes but, if it's a literal torture chamber or not that doesn't change the fact that the traditional view asserts that there is some sort of torture whether physical or mental that they endure as a result of God's wrath being continually and endlessly poured out on them.

 

[farouk]

Hebrews 1.3

This text does not support your case. Here it is:

Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

How does the fact that Jesus purged our sins mean He was punished? I can speak of a medecine purging a virus from my body.

But am I being punished?

The dear, sinless Son of God Who purged His people's sins wasn't acting as an apothecary (I speak reverently); he bore their sins (1 Peter 2.24), so that His people would not have to bear their immense, God defying weight.

 

[Guest]

I agree with both Free and Doulos Iesou on this.

I think that a good reason for us to hash this out with conversation is that, I believe, many of the people who do believe in an eternal torture chamber are sending mixed messages to children. They tell the little children that an eternal torture chamber actually exists, but they don't act with the sense of urgency that most adults would respond with if an actual eternal torture chamber existed. So, these unfortunate children fall right into the routine of their teachers/parents/mentors and have to wait until adulthood, or at least until they have the ability and/or desire to come across posts like this on the internet, in order to square their desires with their actions and reality itself.

Yes but, if it's a literal torture chamber or not that doesn't change the fact that the traditional view asserts that there is some sort of torture whether physical or mental that they endure as a result of God's wrath being continually and endlessly poured out on them.

But you aren't acting like it and behaving in the right manner. You're not acting and behaving like there's a torture chamber. Hop to it Mr. You have work to do!! :toofunny

 

[VirginShallConceive]

Yes but, if it's a literal torture chamber or not that doesn't change the fact that the traditional view asserts that there is some sort of torture whether physical or mental that they endure as a result of God's wrath being continually and endlessly poured out on them.

For His anger is but for a moment, His favor is for a lifetime; Weeping may last for the night, But a shout of joy comes in the morning. Psalm 30:5

Yes, I am aware of your argument. I have been reading your discussion with other members, and I find the discussion very interesting. I can't side one way or another in your debate, because to me, scripture as a whole seems very unclear. There seems to be scripture supporting both your side and the opposing side.

My whole contention has been that the ones who assert that there definitely is an eternal torture chamber, whether you feel an extreme burning sensation for every waking second for eternity, or if they just come out three times a day and give you a good lashing for an infinite number of days, don't behave as if this was true. I have yet to see one.

 

[Guest]

We need to prove to Virgin poster that we're acting and behaving like there's a torture chamber, because without his approval there is no chamber. :silly

 

[Doulos Iesou]

But you aren't acting like it and behaving in the right manner. You're not acting and behaving like there's a torture chamber. Hop to it Mr. You have work to do!! :toofunny

1. It's the love of Christ that compels us to be advocates for him on his behalf and seek for the reconciliation of the world, not the hopelessness of hell.
2. I don't believe in the eternal torment view of hell.

 

[Guest]

2. I don't believe in the eternal torment view of hell.

But people need to know what Jesus is saving them from in Revelation 20:10.

 

[VirginShallConceive]

We need to prove to Virgin poster that we're acting and behaving like there's a torture chamber, because without his approval there is no chamber. :silly

You know, philosophically, we can't prove or disprove the existence of an eternal torture chamber.

I, myself, don't believe an eternal torture chamber exists.

If I did, I would spend every waking moment trying to keep myself and others from ending up there.

Why would I relentlessly pursue this? Because this life is infinitely short when compared with eternity. My effort would be an infinitely small price to pay.