Why wasn't Jesus eternally tormented?

[Guest]

We need to prove to Virgin poster that we're acting and behaving like there's a torture chamber, because without his approval there is no chamber. :silly

You know, philosophically, we can't prove or disprove the existence of an eternal torture chamber.

I, myself, don't believe an eternal torture chamber exists.

If I did, I would spend every waking moment trying to keep myself and others from ending up there.

Why would I relentlessly pursue this? Because this life is infinitely short when compared with eternity. My effort would be an infinitely small price to pay.

But your beliefs contradict Revelation 20:10, sorry.

 

[Drew]

Thanks for contributing to the thread. I can say that "sin needs to be punished" and you will simply disagree. What needs to be done here is evidence from Scripture must be provided to demonstrate this to you....

There is a nuance to my position that you may not have picked up, not least because I may not have been clear from the start.

I am not saying that God does not punish, I am saying that God does need to punish someone (Jesus, of course) for us to be "saved".

I believe the Biblical position is that, at the cross,"sin, understood as a personal power and / or force, is what gets punished.

 

[Drew]

You folks are going to have to learn to differentiate between physical death and spiritual death. The word to which you refer is thanatos. Death of the body. It has nothing to do with spiritual death, which is separation from God, eternal torment and eternal destruction.

You are, I suggest, importing a non-Biblical dualism - spirit versus body - to establish your position. Essentially you are, I believe, begging the question at issue, or at least a related issue.

Again: I assert that there is no Biblical basis for drawing a "spirit" vs "body" distinction, at least in the sense that people usually draw it, that is, as "physical vs non-physical" distinction.

The "spirit-flesh" distinction we see in the Bible is not a "body" vs "disembodied soul/spirit" distinction; it is a "fallen man" vs "new creation" distinction. Remember: In 1 Corinthians 15, Paul uses the term "spiritual" to describe a physical body.

 

[VirginShallConceive]

2. I don't believe in the eternal torment view of hell.

But people need to know what Jesus is saving them from in Revelation 20:10.

Okay.

Now, if you and every other eternal-torture-believer would act from this moment on in an urgent, relentless, soul-saving frenzy, that might make the non-believers stop and say, "Wait a minute . . . something's up. These people are frantically running around as if an eternal torture chamber actually existed. Let's hear what they have to say, because they obviously, undoubtedly believe this to the core."


But no, the fruits of your actions say no such thing.

 

[Drew]

[The dear, sinless Son of God Who purged His people's sins wasn't acting as an apothecary (I speak reverently); he bore their sins (1 Peter 2.24), so that His people would not have to bear their immense, God defying weight.

I have never denied the He bore our sins.

You have yet to make an actual case that, at the cross, Jesus was being punished. If, as I believe Paul believes, as per an implicit argument in Romans, Jesus is to be the "vessel" that holds the real guilty party - sin - then we can correctly say that Jesus bore our sins, without needing to commit to the notion that He was being, in any normal sense of term, punished.

 

[P31Woman]

[

The elephant in the room is that nobody behaves as if there is an actual eternal torture chamber that some of our loved ones could potentially end up in.

Just sixty seconds of torture is terrible.

It is the elephant in the room.

Therefore, it needs to be addressed.



"Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them." -Matthew 7:20

"This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me." -Matthew 15:8

So tell me how you are proving heaven and God exist and that you are a disciple of Christ by your actions?

Matthew 13:44

The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field. When a man found it, he hid it again, and then in his joy went and sold all he had and bought that field.

Matthew 10

37 The person who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; the person who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38 And whoever doesn’t take up his cross and follow Me is not worthy of Me. 39 Anyone finding his life will lose it, and anyone losing his life because of Me will find it.

Luke 14:26

If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple.

“The fourth rule is: Make the enemy live up to their own book of rules. You can kill them with this, for they can no more obey their own rules than the Christian church can live up to Christianity.”

Rules for Radicals, Saul Alinsky

 

[Guest]

But no, the fruits of your actions say no such thing.

Virgin, do you understand that you're judging people with this comment that you've been repeating for the past what, two months now? Do you understand what you're doing?

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Yes, I am aware of your argument. I have been reading your discussion with other members, and I find the discussion very interesting. I can't side one way or another in your debate, because to me, scripture as a whole seems very unclear. There seems to be scripture supporting both your side and the opposing side.

Well you need to ask the question about what presuppositions do we bring when we read texts like Matthew 25:46 or Revelation 14:9-13 or Revelation 20:10? Those who support the eternal torment view bring this presuppositions to the text.

1. That eternal punishment, means eternal torment in hell. Rather than just noting that the punishment has a duration that lasts unto the ages, it never ends. We believe that he destruction of the wicked lasts for eternity, not in the wicked being conscious and awake, but that there is no return from the destruction, there is not 3rd resurrection. It is universalists who seek to deny the eternality of the final punishment, not Conditionalists or Traditionalists.
2. That the texts in Revelation are to be interpreted literally. That the beast and false prophet are literal people. That the torture they endure is literal. That the descriptions of the duration of the punishments are literal.

A. I have a couple problems with this idea. 1) It totally ignores the genre of the text which is apocalyptic and generally metaphorical and allegorical in it's use of language. 2) The Old Testament accounts of what is called the beast and false prophet particularly in Daniel distinguish it as a Dominion and not an individual person, you either have a contradiction or someone is not exercising proper hermeneutics. 3) This same exact language is employed in Isaiah 34:8-10 and there we know the destruction of Edom does not continue to this day but the language was blatantly figurative, yet we interpret this same language as literal in Revelation. Red flags anyone?​

I'll also ask you this question? What position makes the most sense of all the texts given so far? Have you seen many traditionalists making sense of the texts I've given? Or have you rather seen addressing on several occasions those texts people use against me as well as texts that obviously support and prove my position. It's not these set of texts versus these other ones, Scripture is completely consistent with itself and we must come to the interpretation of each individual passage that makes the greatest sense of all the Biblical revelation.

My whole contention has been that the ones who assert that there definitely is an eternal torture chamber, whether you feel an extreme burning sensation for every waking second for eternity, or if they just come out three times a day and give you a good lashing for an infinite number of days, don't behave as if this was true. I have yet to see one.

I agree, it's impossible for a person to fathom or believe as a healthy compassionate human being.

 

[P31Woman]

But no, the fruits of your actions say no such thing.

Virgin, do you understand that you're judging people with this comment that you've been repeating for the past what, two months now? Do you understand what you're doing?

He understands.

He is using rule number 4 from Saul Alinsky's famous book Rules for Radicles. That rule reads, "Make the enemy live up to their own book of rules. You can kill them with this, for they can no more obey their own rules than the Christian church can live up to Christianity.”

Now all you need to do is turn it back on him. Of course if he does not like a protion of scipture he will simply claim that portion was not from God. He has a built in excuse to ignore portions he does not approve of.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

2. I don't believe in the eternal torment view of hell.

But people need to know what Jesus is saving them from in Revelation 20:10.

I've addressed this text maybe 10 times in this thread, simply citing it over and over again and assuming your literal interpretation is correct does nothing. You have to prove that is what it means, I have in detail made a case for a different meaning and that has not been addressed.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

Dream on, brother, I have affirmed nothing on your side of the argument. Do you recall that Moses was attracted to the burning bush because it burned, but was not consumed? So it is with the wicked in hell and the lake of fire. Tormented and in anguish, they will wish for the fire to consume them, to put them out of their pain. But. It. Will. Not. Happen. Period. The blasphemous concept of annihilation is just as false a teaching as purgatory, and comes from the same bad exegesis of God's word.

I assert that there is no Biblical basis for drawing a "spirit" vs "body" distinction, at least in the sense that people usually draw it, that is, as "physical vs non-physical" distinction.

I'm sorry, but I won't discuss biblical principles with someone who doesn't understand what the Bible says. Have a blessed life.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

You folks are going to have to learn to differentiate between physical death and spiritual death. The word to which you refer is thanatos. Death of the body. It has nothing to do with spiritual death, which is separation from God, eternal torment and eternal destruction.

You are, I suggest, importing a non-Biblical dualism - spirit versus body - to establish your position. Essentially you are, I believe, begging the question at issue, or at least a related issue.

Again: I assert that there is no Biblical basis for drawing a "spirit" vs "body" distinction, at least in the sense that people usually draw it, that is, as "physical vs non-physical" distinction.

The "spirit-flesh" distinction we see in the Bible is not a "body" vs "disembodied soul/spirit" distinction; it is a "fallen man" vs "new creation" distinction. Remember: In 1 Corinthians 15, Paul uses the term "spiritual" to describe a physical body.

You are correct, this is due in part from the influence that Gnosticism has had on the Church through it's history. Which also has a very strong dualism between material (which is bad) to immaterial or spiritual (which is good).

We agree here.

 

[Guest]

I've addressed this text maybe 10 times in this thread, simply citing it over and over again and assuming your literal interpretation is correct does nothing. You have to prove that is what it means, I have in detail made a case for a different meaning and that has not been addressed.

so what is your interpretation of Revelation 20:10.

 

[VirginShallConceive]

So tell me how you are proving heaven and God exist and that you are a disciple of Christ by your actions?

I am a good person.

However, I am not perfect. Nobody is(at least that I have met).

On this particular point(that "believers" in an eternal torture chamber don't act like they believe), I haven't been persuaded otherwise, so I still hold firm to my observation.

I have been wrong many times before. I will be wrong again.

But on this, I have yet to be convinced otherwise.

 

[VirginShallConceive]

But no, the fruits of your actions say no such thing.

Virgin, do you understand that you're judging people with this comment that you've been repeating for the past what, two months now? Do you understand what you're doing?

Urk,

I honestly think that you are incorrectly accusing me of judging(in that way).

Think of it being more like a simpler kind of judgement. For instance, I see a building on fire. I see various people jumping out of various windows of that building. I then judge that they were feeling a heat that was too torturous to bear. I am not judging whether or not they are good people, or whether or not they are God's children.

It's the same with the people who believe in an eternal torture chamber. I am not saying they are bad people. I am saying that since I believe that they are good people, I simply don't see any evidence that they have thoroughly explored what it is they actually believe when it comes to eternal torture chambers.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Dream on, brother, I have affirmed nothing on your side of the argument.

Actually I have, which is funny that you didn't quote where I demonstrated that your affirmation that θάνατος (thanatos) meaning only physical death is the same word used for the second death. You can choose to ignore this, but it would only prove that you're not interested in an honest and open discussion to be faithful to Scripture, just rather to assert you being right...

Do you recall that Moses was attracted to the burning bush because it burned, but was not consumed?

Hmm Scripture never draws this correlation..

So it is with the wicked in hell and the lake of fire. Tormented and in anguish, they will wish for the fire to consume them, to put them out of their pain. But. It. Will. Not. Happen. Period.

They won't be consumed? What does Scripture say?

"His winnowing fork is in His hand to thoroughly clear His threshing floor, and to gather the wheat into His barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." Luke 3:17

This unquenchable fire does what to the chaff? It burns them up.. in the Greek the word is κατακαύσει which means to "burn up or consume entirely."

The blasphemous concept of annihilation is just as false a teaching as purgatory, and comes from the same bad exegesis of God's word.

So you called me a blasphemer and a false teacher and bad exegete all in one sentence through direct implication, nice! However, I'll let me exegesis and your exegesis speak for itself.

I'm sorry, but I won't discuss biblical principles with someone who doesn't understand what the Bible says. Have a blessed life.

Yet.. you keep responding... And because I disagree with you on this issue does not mean..

1. That I am not a Christian.
2. That I don't know Scripture, I think I have a pretty good knowledge of it that even if you just met me you'd be able to attest (all by God's grace of course).
3. That I'm a blasphemer.
4. That I'm a false teacher.
5. That I'm a bad exegete.

Perhaps taking a moment to breath, and clear your mind will help. We can discuss without getting angry and insulting one another, my hope is to understand what God has actually taught us through his Word, not just what is popularly believed and held as dogma. If there were a truly convincing argument for the eternal torment view I would believe it, yet I have seen nothing new here so far..

 

[Doulos Iesou]

so what is your interpretation of Revelation 20:10.

You're more than welcome to look through the posts previously made in this thread to see, I'm sorry I've just repeated myself too many times in this thread. So many demands for me to answer to this or that, and I do answer... but then someone else comes along or even the same person comes along and asks the same question.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Urk,

I honestly think that you are incorrectly accusing me of judging(in that way).

Think of it being more like a simpler kind of judgement. For instance, I see a building on fire. I see various people jumping out of various windows of that building. I then judge that they were feeling a heat that was too torturous to bear. I am not judging whether or not they are good people, or whether or not they are God's children.

It's the same with the people who believe in an eternal torture chamber. I am not saying they are bad people. I am saying that since I believe that they are good people, I simply don't see any evidence that they have thoroughly explored what it is they actually believe when it comes to eternal torture chambers.

You're absolutely right on this point, we are to judge without hypocrisy and indeed Paul says that we are to judge those within the Church and remove the wicked ones from among us. However, this instance it is simply an analysis of the fruit produced by one's life, that we should look to these things and make distinctions righteously and wisely and of course without hypocrisy.

We do not however pass judgement on anyone, but leave that to the Lord.

 

[P31Woman]

Do you folks realize the effect Sin had on God Himself?

Remember he rested after he created. But when sin came into the world he no longer rested. John 5:17 John 9:4 Phil. 1:6

Sin is a HUGE deal!

 

[P31Woman]

Urk,

I honestly think that you are incorrectly accusing me of judging(in that way).

Think of it being more like a simpler kind of judgement. For instance, I see a building on fire. I see various people jumping out of various windows of that building. I then judge that they were feeling a heat that was too torturous to bear. I am not judging whether or not they are good people, or whether or not they are God's children.

It's the same with the people who believe in an eternal torture chamber. I am not saying they are bad people. I am saying that since I believe that they are good people, I simply don't see any evidence that they have thoroughly explored what it is they actually believe when it comes to eternal torture chambers.

You're absolutely right on this point, we are to judge without hypocrisy and indeed Paul says that we are to judge those within the Church and remove the wicked ones from among us. However, this instance it is simply an analysis of the fruit produced by one's life, that we should look to these things and make distinctions righteously and wisely and of course without hypocrisy.

We do not however pass judgement on anyone, but leave that to the Lord.

(You is not personal but general comment)

Yes and that same "man made standard" you apply to others is being applied to you.

If you don't abide by our "man made standard" by acting the way "we believe" one should act then you (not your personal) cannot believe what you claim to believe.