Wifely submission from the husband's POV....

[reba]

Jason seems your the brave one around here!

I am getting from your posts a submissive wife make an authoritarian husband. Dont have to be that way.

Should our churches be schooling folks on the topic?

Col 3:18 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.

 

[jasoncran]

Jason seems your the brave one around here!

I am getting from your posts a submissive wife make an authoritarian husband. Dont have to be that way.

Should our churches be schooling folks on the topic?

Col 3:18 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.

lol, no , no. nothing of the sort. i'm saying that some when they use that word submit as teach as like a soldier and say that to me who is a SOLDIER. They need to make sure they clarify what they actually mean

again a digression to my job as a leader and why my men and "ladies"(almost just wrote men, old school habit) must obey. yes, theres an obivous regulations an rank structure/heirarchy. i have rules to follow when i give orders and what orders i gan give and the subordinates have rights. That being obvious, army culture(yes the army is a culture and those that have served will know this) teaches that we are a team.In the heat of the battle if the private sees the guy shooting and orders(calls out fire over there) we all we will adjust to his direction. Did you know at that moment he is in charge?

now then once again back to the op. is marriage like this? NO! i cant command my wife to clean the house and she has to do it. it doesnt work that way. She has to want to do these things as they are commanded by the lord. Does the lord rule over us like the nco corps and officer corps does in the army? nope.

in fact he allows us to reject his will very easily and lets us reap that action, if we obey blessings, in not trouble!

 

[WIP]

WIP, I think I disagree with this: "He submitted to them and likewise I think husbands need to submit to their wives." (I say think because I'm more than a little tired tonight and maybe my thought processes aren't firing on all cylinders.)

I don't think that Christ submitted to the discples, He served them and took care of their need and pleasure (having one's hot, dusty feet washed is a pleasurable thing, after all). But, this is difference than submission. I don't see where Christ submits to the Church...an example of the Church saying "We will go this way" and Christ, out of love says..."Not what I want but in order to keep peace, OK." No, I don't see this at all...and perhaps I'm totally misunderstanding your meaning.

Sounds like our definition of "submission" and how we apply our definition is different. I recognize that neither of us has a wrong understanding of what submission is because to submit could mean to "surrender" as in to "give up." To be submissive can also mean things like "cooperative." When I wrote that Christ submitted to his disciples I wasn't implying that he gave up his authority. But, He did place pleasing them ahead of his own pleasure as he knew what he was about to face. Imagine if you will a human King. How many would actually lower themselves to the place of a servant by doing something only servants would do? That's what Christ did and how he demonstrated how we are to love each other.

Am I getting too far out of line?

 

[handy]

That being obvious, army culture(yes the army is a culture and those that have served will know this) teaches that we are a team.In the heat of the battle if the private sees the guy shooting and orders(calls out fire over there) we all we will adjust to his direction. Did you know at that moment he is in charge?

I think this is why the bible compares marriage to military though...as a team with a common objective, but one in which, during the normal course of life, the Lord leads through the rank of husband then wife....not so much the idea of following orders...but as a couple who works as one unit, with one objective. And yes, a wise husband will understand that sometimes it is the wife who comprehends what direction the unit needs to move in.

Sounds like our definition of "submission" and how we apply our definition is different. I recognize that neither of us has a wrong understanding of what submission is because to submit could mean to "surrender" as in to "give up." To be submissive can also mean things like "cooperative." When I wrote that Christ submitted to his disciples I wasn't implying that he gave up his authority. But, He did place pleasing them ahead of his own pleasure as he knew what he was about to face. Imagine if you will a human King. How many would actually lower themselves to the place of a servant by doing something only servants would do? That's what Christ did and how he demonstrated how we are to love each other.

Oh, I don't know how different after all...I think that "submission" can and does mean both "surrender" and "cooperative". Perhaps a truly good definition would be that the wife "surrenders in order to cooperate" with her husband for the common good of the marriage.

The thing is, in today's world this seems to be taught as being anti-woman and downright horrible. I listen to Dr. Laura sometimes...and I remember listening to her talk with a woman who was wanted to divorce her husband because he "didn't respect her feelings". Dr. Laura tried to point out to her that she wasn't respecting her husbands feelings either...but somehow the woman couldn't or wouldn't see that her husbands feelings of disrespect were just as valid as her own.

Should our churches be schooling folks on the topic?

Absolutely they should be...I wonder how many actually are though? It wasn't until about 3 years ago that I took part in a church sponsored Bible study on wifely submission. I've been a church going Christian for 30+ years....and only one Bible study on the subject, just 3 years ago.

Meanwhile, the ratio of broken marriages within the Church is almost as high as that of the world's...

...and that Bible study on wifely submission was for women only...not men. I know of no church sponsored Bible studies or Sunday schools which addresses this issue for men.

And, I think there should be...because it seems more and more obvious to me that men are very uncomfortable even discussing this issue, almost as if they have no right to expect their wives to be submissive to them, even though this is the clear biblical directive for marriage.

 

[jasoncran]

not to nitpick, dora. you do realise what i said about the nco corps and that statement of what happens alot is true in the american marine corps and army.

all others usually are more dictatorial and dont allow much of that going on. the closest to us might be the canadians. in my dialouge on fb with cindy she and i seem to have a similiar understanding on the military. so its possible that we are on the same sheet.

and back then the roman army didnt take advice like that from some roman foot soldier, though tis possible.just not likely as they way they set the rank structure up.

 

[handy]

Not really trying to hash out military protocol, Jason...but when I took that class on submission, and when one studies the meaning of the Greek word, it does have a military connotation.

For me, the main thing isn't so much the ins and outs of military discipline as much as wifely submission involves two competent adults working towards a common goal, as opposed to children obeying parents, which is more a matter of "you're to do this because I said so".

The main goal I had when starting this thread was to really get an idea of what guys face when their wife is against the idea of submission and when the biblical model of the family just isn't going to happen in a marriage...either short term or long term.

Still more than a little surprised at how few of the guys around here are willing to discuss the issue.

 

[jasoncran]

Not really trying to hash out military protocol, Jason...but when I took that class on submission, and when one studies the meaning of the Greek word, it does have a military connotation.

For me, the main thing isn't so much the ins and outs of military discipline as much as wifely submission involves two competent adults working towards a common goal, as opposed to children obeying parents, which is more a matter of "you're to do this because I said so".

The main goal I had when starting this thread was to really get an idea of what guys face when their wife is against the idea of submission and when the biblical model of the family just isn't going to happen in a marriage...either short term or long term.

Still more than a little surprised at how few of the guys around here are willing to discuss the issue.

forgive this programmed old soldier. when you say it like that. that comes to mind. i dont order my wife around but ask her to do this or that and at times i will listen to her.

ov vey, what at day on that for me.

 

[Mike]

My wife and I have been blessed to enjoy almost 20 years of marriage without coming to a point of real friction over this. Yes, there have been times that I have felt slighted, but none that were so significant that they come to mind now.

To be honest, it's hard for me not to be influenced by the secular world view of our relationship as opposed to a biblical world view. We're just constantly bombarded by the SWV and PC pressure to the point that it takes a lot of "humbling myself" to accept my biblical roll in the family. Isn't that funny? I have to humble myself to accept my roll as the spiritual leader. I can be considered "husband of the year" from the world by letting her lead, but I need to resist that affirmation and take the roll that might make me look old-fashioned.

I separate the two areas (everyday household decisions and spiritual leadership) and focus my leadership responsibilities on spiritual ones. Julie has allowed this of me for the most part. If I'm advising my family on faith matters, she will support me. We've had such a situation recently. Our 12 YO daughter has met with our pastor and been given his nod to begin receiving communion. I don't believe she's aware of the significance and thought it out enough yet, and I have told her "not yet". Our daughter is not happy with me, my wife has said IN PRIVATE that she disagrees, but she supports me and shows this support in front of her.

I guess this is what I expect from her. Allow me to be the spiritual leader and support my decisions when I make them. She can and should be honest with me in private when she sees things differently, but she should allow my decision to stand. Julie had her "great awakening" at a Women of Faith conference where the roll of the wife was explained in its true form, so she sees beyond what the world thinks of it.

 

[reba]

Nice post Mike

 

[handy]

Yes, thank you for contributing Mike!

How long ago did Julie attend the Women of Faith conference? Was it harder before then?

I know that in my own marriage things really smoothed out after I went through the study a few years back.

 

[Mike]

Dora,

Julie and I met while we were away at college. We got engaged around graduation and married at age 23. It was when we were 26 that I was brought to faith. That's when we had a period of unrest; never to the point of not making it. My faith wouldn't have allowed us to part. But she (and she would say this) felt like another woman moved into our house. In some ways I was changed for much better, but in others I had some real Christian growing to do. I couldn't control my faith, and that was disconcerting to her. I was on my knees for two years, literally every night by the bed as she'd sleep, I would pray over her. Backing up a bit, up until I turned to Christ, the two of us were just havin' some fun. A lot of nights I'd be out with the boys, and she would be out with her girls. No worries of our spiritual rolls concerned either of us.

Now, I was living with this new purpose, and it was as though we were talking two different languages. In one way I was the spiritual leader, because I was the only one of us who was spiritual. But she couldn't accept the biblical roll of the wife. And to be honest, I didn't push it on her a bit. I just prayed... for two years. I know some spouses go a lot longer, but that was long to me. Like when a doctor asks you how bad the pain is on a scale of 1-10. That was a 12 to me! I don't care if it's a 3 to that guy!!!

So it would have been around 1995-6 that a friend took her to a Women of Faith conference. I was anxious, but I had hope. Well, only someone who has been radically saved can fully relate, but she came home on that Saturday night and I met her half way to the car when she threw her arms around me and sobbed! Happy sobs!! Thunderous, elated sobs! She could hardly get the words through her lips with all the tears, but I knew. I knew she had not only come home. She had come Home! That night we knelt down in the middle of our living room and confirmed our vows to each other, and we BOTH confirmed them to the Lord. I've never cried so hard in all my life. That was the night we began our faith walk together in our rolls as husband and wife/son and daughter of God.

Wait... You didn't ask for my testimony? oops! Well, that was her testimony. I'll tell mine another time. I hope I answered your questions somewhere in there! Ask me a question that includes the two loves of my life, and ya git wucha git!

 

[handy]

Great testimony, Mike!!!

In a lot of ways, it was the reverse for Steve and I when we married...so much so that some in my family said they wouldn't go to my wedding because they felt I was "unequally yoked"...(they all wound up coming).

It was hard because I was by far the more spiritual one, and Steve was like..."Hey, I believe in God but..." He was a good, moral guy, and he did believe in God, but spiritual things just weren't all that important to him.

Then when we got our daughter...it started to become more important to him...by the time our son came to us, he truly wanted to be much more spiritual...and I was the one holding us back, partly because I was just in the habit of explaining to him the Biblical perspective of things and also because I felt that he would make some terrible mistakes...like having our family join a denomination that was about to go south in a bad way.

It took that class on wifely submission to show me the error of my ways, and yes, we joined that denomination...and I found that that was where God intended us to be, so that He could show Steve things....

Since then, our marriage is a lot like yours, we discuss differences of opinions, in private, but I support his decisions. And he has grown in faith by leaps and bounds.

Which was part of the reason why I wanted to start this thread...to see if other men felt that dealing with a unsubmissive wife hindered their own spiritual growth.

 

[Sparkey]

It's a difficult thing for a guy sometimes to come right out and talk about feelings, but I suspect that you've noticed this and don't need me to tell you. If I were to say, "Honey? I feel resentment toward you when you ..." <--- especially to a woman who is already feeling "unsubmissing" it is a dangerous and slippery slope. What good can come of it?

Part of it, if a guy is humble enough and honest, is that He hopes that God was right to place His confidence in him as a leader and he knows deep down that he, being sinful doesn't deserve. There is a faith act going on for a guy who steps out and trusts the Lord to guide his steps - and the fact of the matter is when we are actually being guided by God we don't always get to know the full matter (for whatever reason). So then there are little doubts that can become fiery darts even with maritial unity, right?

But that's not the reason that I got back up out of bed tonight. You see, I read your post, Handy - and thought about replying but didn't. I didn't think that I had much to contribute, but then, as I was getting ready to sleep I remembered a play, "The Taming of the Shrew" that I'm fairly certain you've read. There are some very good insights from the Bard into the topic there.

When I consider then what God intends for "wifely submission" I must also consider what He intends for our unity - that the two become one. The Taming of the Shrew puts a point on the senseless argument, "If I say it is the moon, what say you?" "

"It is the sun."

In the end though their love overcomes their differences and it is with great pride that he shows off in front of his friends. Perhaps not the most spiritual example and indeed it was fleshly but it does address something that I wanted to try to bring to the conversation. That it is good and right for a man to be proud of the love of his life, his wife. That his confidence grows as they become united through struggle and they share more and more experiences, not saying, "You're right," but instead saying, "I trust you, know you love me and am willing, no --desirous of following you in this."

Then she can go to the Lord and pray that He give her hubby wisdom and prevent the folly that she fears if she wants... (lol)

Seems to me that the Lord wants us to be one. No better reason than "Man was created first" is given or needed - a god fearing man must continue wholehearted before the Lord to be able to walk in a manner deserving of this, but when we look at the Scripture we are also told to give that kind of respect even to our unsaved spouse. So there is something that is "coercive" without the destructive nature, hmmmmm... something that is pursuasive about a Christian relationship that we can grow in. Both sides.

Okay, sorry to ramble too much, tired and time for this grandpa to go to bed. One last thing, ask the Lord to help me with a Quiz tomorrow, feeling a little under the weather, will be rested but need His help.

Thanks!

 

[handy]

Thanks, Sparrow...that was truly insightful.

I've asked about how it feels when a wife doesn't submit, but this insight as to when a wife does submit:

That it is good and right for a man to be proud of the love of his life, his wife. That his confidence grows as they become united through struggle and they share more and more experiences, not saying, "You're right," but instead saying, "I trust you, know you love me and am willing, no --desirous of following you in this."

...this is important to hear as well.

(Hope you're feeling better and the quiz goes well!)

 

[reba]

This thread draws close to
The Absent Dad thread

 

[Sparkey]

This thread draws close to
The Absent Dad thread

lol, that cracks me up.
It's funny but it's also one of the most profound things I've heard.

It doesn't matter the trouble that each family faces, for God all things are possible.

How can He take the rage that flows in a child like me and use it to carve such a large spot for His occupancy? How can He say, "Where you are weak, there I am strong." My dad was a weak father -- but let me take that lie back before I say it again. My dad didn't know how to show love, his heartfelt love (in any way other than what he did) to his kids because of the times he suffered through... He was born in 1911... but the Lord was strong there for him. My mom was a weak mommy because she thought she had to fill the gap that my dad left - but there was He strong again (and she was a wonderful mom, I can't imagine a better one). I was a little monster in a cute-kid-suit but they loved me and later I was a father of two little, ahem, 'children' - so I know what that's like.

There are too many lies that prey on the minds and hearts of couples who try their joining rightly in the sight of God.

If two become one does it matter who the two used to be? I don't understand the mystery that Paul explained but it rings in my heart. "We don't know what we shall be but we shall be like Him (Jesus)." These two threads, Wifely Submission (I like Christian Yielding as a title --because it isn't gender related and whole families benefit from men who are yielded to God) drawing close to the Absent Dad (which could also be called 'The absent parent' -- because wives too can have their hearts targeted and benefit from God's restoration as much as any man), as you've said are part of the mystery of the Union promised. They are part of the mystery that flows between the church and her beloved, between Christ and his beloved.

I'm asking the Lord from the heart he built in me for what He wants. I know that's the same thing that godly women want. When guys and gals alike start to understand the benefits of this -- there's gonna be a storm of love that sweeps stupid stuff away. Gentle rain kinda storm - a contradiction in terms but that is what I hope for. Where the full power of the storm is known by the passion shared but it is held to be released later... I gotta stop talking because it's too much for me. Too holy to try to say it. It's the kind of love that can only be expressed by an absent dad (now returned) and his bride. Her love for him causes his return, his absence (or the appearance of it) causes the desire she has and forms the place he desires. The love that flows in families united will cause our Lord's heart to leap and I literally see him leaping over the mountain tops to come visit and remain with his yielded spouse -, "You have dove's eyes," is what He will say. I'm gonna blame God, our Father, for every good thing that comes from that request too. It's his idea after all. He declared it from the beginning. I think of the Love that flows between husband and wife, both yielded and submitted to God as the promised land that the Lord spoke to Abraham about. Where God's glory shall be seen on the earth.



I'm a divorced (now single) man but I do remember how it felt for the love of my life, my wife to turn her eyes upon me and look up in that special way.
That's the thing that mitigates the hurt. We have a choice when it comes to what we remember, and wifely yielding --to her heart-- to show love to her husband is part of what brought me my kids. Words fail me as I try to look through and see what God has done. I think of the walk that couples take with the Lord as they join together and walk with Him as the very thing that the Lord spoke to Abraham about finding a city whose builder and maker is God. Two yielded becoming one represents the Promised Land where Jesus is truly in the hearts of his bride, their relationship renewed and fully restored. It's not for the married couple only, single Christians too can walk with the Lord to that place as well and I've had the pleasure of watching Him act on His promise in hearts again today. Those who yield and submit to God, those members who "Walk in the Way" are submitting to His plan and all that it entails.

 

[Bonairos]

What is it like for you when you wife just will not submit about something?

Wait! We’ve been married 29 years next month, born-again 28. So at what point in this marriage do you want me to answer? There is a HUGE difference throughout the years. HAHA! And that’s to say nothing of the period of when we started and pastored a church for a decade, raised 5 kids, or faced a year working through an extra marital affair (sorry, am I being too real or off topic?).

Nonetheless, One point that has not been brought up (from what I read in this thread) is the fact that, in dealing in with wifely submission in my marriage, I failed to take into account the other men in my wife’s past. No. I’m not just talking about men as in the relationships she had before me, but mores so her experiences with men being ‘over’ her. (i.e. her father, bosses, etc.).

A lot (I assume) could have been avoided if I saw the importance of where she was coming from having being ‘under’ such male-dominated authority and the impact it had on her. Unfortunately, I did not and in essence (by my conduct, compassion, whatever you want to call it) refused to ’pay’ another man’s bills (if that makes sense). Which, undoubtedly made it worse.

So in keeping with your OP, at what point?

BTW - Where are we in life right now? “We good!â€

Be blessed, Stay blessed!

 

[handy]

Nonetheless, One point that has not been brought up (from what I read in this thread) is the fact that, in dealing in with wifely submission in my marriage, I failed to take into account the other men in my wife’s past. No. I’m not just talking about men as in the relationships she had before me, but mores so her experiences with men being ‘over’ her. (i.e. her father, bosses, etc.).

A lot (I assume) could have been avoided if I saw the importance of where she was coming from having being ‘under’ such male-dominated authority and the impact it had on her. Unfortunately, I did not and in essence (by my conduct, compassion, whatever you want to call it) refused to ’pay’ another man’s bills (if that makes sense). Which, undoubtedly made it worse.

Very good point, Bonairos. Yes, if a woman has been harshly treated by men previously, submission comes much harder...very much harder (speaking as someone who wasn't always treated with respect by men, especially by men whom I should have expected better treatment.

And, I do get your point regarding the changes over time...I think most couples who are God-centered will "get better" at it over time.

But, my main point for this thread was to try to get a handle on what it feels like to a guy when his wife will not yield to his God-given leadership in the home...what does it do to his confidence to lead?

 

[Bonairos]

But, my main point for this thread was to try to get a handle on what it feels like to a guy when his wife will not yield to his God-given leadership in the home...what does it do to his confidence to lead?

What does it feel like . . . Hmmmm.

In a general sense, and NOT taking any specific period or instance into account - if my wife wouldn't (purposely) yield to my God-given responsibilty (and this is assuming that I am in right standing with the Lord at the time) to lead my home, I would be frustrated!

I more than likely would still do whatever it is that needs to be done, BUT! You can be sure I would be on the defense for the (preceived) reprecussions to follow in our relationship. You know, the "Do what YOU THINK God told you to do" with the voice inflections in all the right places! And the "look" you women can give without saying a word! HAHAHA! (to say nothing of the fact that I'm on my own; credit or blame). Ah, the joys of two becoming one!

I'm thankful it has been few and far between in our marriage and virtually none existent in our later years but nonetheless I would be frustrated. I can say though, that I wouldn't feel the complete freedom to walk out whatever I was to do (at least while not having the unspoken support of my bride). I would also have to battle the thoughts (valid or not) of she being a major hinderance to what I believed God had for us.

I hope that makes sense and answers the inquiry.

But like I said, right now, "We good!"


Be blessed, Stay blessed!

 

[Sparkey]

What does it do to his confidence to lead?

In a word: Impotence.