Will all born-again Christians make it to heaven?

[Danus]

Who here is doubting there future salvation??? The point is that it is not certain. We have moral certainty, not absolute certainty. As long as Christ abides in me, I will go to heaven. I (and the supposed doubters, I imagine) are merely saying that it is not DONE yet. The battle continues, but we remain confident that God will aid us when we call to Him.

To say it is not certain is to doubt. That is doubt. DOUBT Noun; feeling of uncertainty or lack of conviction.

Verb
Feel uncertain about.

Your claiming that your salvation is not certain to doubting your salvation. You saying that about anyone else salvation is also doubting their salvation even if they say otherwise, yet no one is doubting your doubt.

faith, on the other hand is Complete trust or confidence in someone or something.

What do you have faith in?

 

[francisdesales]

False Teachers and Their Destruction

20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,”[g] and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”

Nope, I see nothing about the born again in there. Rather a DOG returns to it's vomit, a pig to the mud. People are slaves to whatever masters them....these would not be the born again, since God is their mater. 2 Peter describes the unsaved continuing not to be saved and being rightly judged for it.

You say that because you haven't read it very carefully.

HOW EXACTLY does one become free from the "corruption of the world"? That is sin, correct??? Please explain to me if there is any other name under the earth that frees us from sin??? Just having "head" knowledge frees us from the corruption of sin??? I should hardly think so.

We have here a person who was freed from sin and continued in that transformed manner, with full knowledge of his being saved and the actions of Christ.

Further evidence is "became entangled AGAIN". This tells us he ESCAPED sin once and fell into it again, just as the use of the proverb indicates. Again, a saved person. Born from above, since one cannot escape sin unless they are born from God.

Unless you are suggesting that men can avoid sin without God???

The kicker for me, though, is verse 21:

It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them

Now, HOW ON EARTH could someone be BETTER OFF IF THEY HAD NEVER known the way of righteousness ("the way" is how we act, which means escaped sin through righteousness) and only had peripherial knowledge??? How does "head" knowledge make someone worse off and make them return to their former sinful lives???

No, Danus, this citation decisively defeats the OP idea...

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Thank you. Now the scripture you gave me says nothing about "born-again" children of God.

Thank you for the non sequitar, since the Bible RARELY MENTIONS the term "born again", and not with "children of God". Thus, no matter what I say, you could make the same statement. It doesn't mention born again children GOING TO HEAVEN, either, if you want to play this out to its logical conclusion.

What you fail to understand is the scripture that you cited is refering to people who have heard of or have been exposed to the gospel not necessarily people who have been born-again.

As I just got done writing Danus in #208, the passage in question is more than just some people "exposed to the Gospel", for it speaks of "avoiding the corruption of the world". Now, what do you suppose that is, and HOW does the Gospel itself teach that one is freed from this "corruption"??? Do you have another means by which men are saved under heaven besides Jesus and belief in His redemption of men??? It says that this person ESCAPED from it. Not HEARD about it after reading a tract that came in the mailbox...

Now i ask you again francis show me scripture that says that true "born-again" children of God will NOT enter the Kingdom.

Already have.
You denying their plain exegesis doesn't make them any less Scriptures that show that someone is WORSE OFF than BEFORE escaping the corruptions of the world by returning to their former life of sin.

Can you do that? What we seem to be debating is the "age old" debate of whether or not one can lose their salvation.

Actually, it is age-old in the sense that new Christians are constantly hearing this false gospel and are grow to maturity and move away from it.
A definition of terms would help, since using the generic term "salvation" is confusing. That is why I use the term "eschatological salvation", which clearly means something more than just the generic "salvation", which can be taken to mean our initial justification, our ongoing sanctification, or our final end in heaven after judgment. Once Christians become aware of these things are the Scriptures are pointed out, they move on from the milk of OSAS and leave it behind. At least that is my experience in discussing these matters for ten years.

Sure both sides can pick and choose verses to support their stance but when scripture is properly studied within context and logic is applied your side loses francis.

So sayeth you. Unfortunately, you aren't going to be able to use an "argument from Grappler authority" on me here. Perhaps you can detail more carefully the man described in 2 Peter and how he escaped the corruptions of the world WITHOUT converting to Christ???

DO you have some other way of being saved from sin in mind, Grappler???

You really are confused about this Jewish "thing" you keep refering to. You are comparing apples and oranges.lol

Tell that to Paul, he makes the comparison in 1 Cor 10. Why haven't you read it yet??? I have cited it several times to prove my point.

Do you not understand that there is a difference between the Old Covevant and the New Covenant? The Old Covenant is over with...let it go....that is why Jesus came.

You need to qualify that, since part of "the Old Covenant" can be said to be irrevocable.
Furthermore, since you continue to refuse to read Romans 9-11, it seems clear that you are missing out on the relationship between the Jews and the Gentile Christians. It is the GENTILES who are being grafted INTO the root of Judaism, in particular, the Jewish Patriarchs.

Yes francis the Pharisees were the Jewish leaders that i was refering to...very good. Well...what does being born-again mean to you if you understand it as you claim?

I am not falling for that trick question.

 

[francisdesales]

Who here is doubting there future salvation??? The point is that it is not certain. We have moral certainty, not absolute certainty. As long as Christ abides in me, I will go to heaven. I (and the supposed doubters, I imagine) are merely saying that it is not DONE yet. The battle continues, but we remain confident that God will aid us when we call to Him.

To say it is not certain is to doubt. That is doubt. DOUBT Noun; feeling of uncertainty or lack of conviction.

Verb
Feel uncertain about.

Your claiming that your salvation is not certain to doubting your salvation. You saying that about anyone else salvation is also doubting their salvation even if they say otherwise, yet no one is doubting your doubt.

faith, on the other hand is Complete trust or confidence in someone or something.

What do you have faith in?

Sorry, your black and white definitions need not apply.

You are trying to put me into one of two neat classes of people. Anyone who is not an OSAS person has no faith in God. That is a fallacy of definition.

I could just as easily turn this false argument on you and ask you if you can tell me with absolute certainty that you will be alive one hour from now, and then call you a doubter for saying "no". What person would say that they know with absolute certainty that they will be alive/girlfriend will remain faithful/car will start, etc...??? Does that mean we doubt them or the propositions? Hardly.

I said before I have "morale certitude" that I would be escatologically saved. That's a pretty high standard, I would hardly call it "doubting" as defined by most people.

Regards

 

[VirginShallConceive]

This may be true, but you will never know who is truly "born again" until you are joined with them in Heaven.

Might be true for you, but I would not speak for you. There are many people who do not, and will tell you, can not know they are saved.

I agree with this. I believe that my post does as well. Can you clarify?

I suppose.

About a year ago I started a thread simply titled; "Do You Know You Are Saved?"

Thank you for clarifying. You explained a lot. Yeah, that's a good idea for a thread, like this one is.

Many people said yes. and some calling themselves Christians, followers of Christ said NO, but what was even more fascinating is that at one point some of the people saying NO, also wanted to say that the people who said they where saved, did not really know they where saved. yet the people who said they are saved never, ever disagreed with the ones who said thwey where not saved, or that it was not true that they did not know they where saved, or could not know.

The saved never questioned the unsaved, but the unsaved questioned the saved.

That is the same thing we have with this thread.

Those that do not know they are saved, say they can not know, and never will until they die I guess.....are often the ones questioning the salvation of those who say they are saved. Yet the saved never question the doubt of the unsaved, other than to try and convince them they are or can be, and can know.

If I have something, and can only get it from God, then all I can tell anyone is where I got it. But If I have nothing and are trying to seek something, then all I can tell anyone else is how I'm getting something that I am still looking for, and if they say that they already have it, well that's just not possible because I don't have it and I'm seeking it, and if they want it then they better do what I'm doing or they will not have it either......but they already do.

We are saved in Jesus Christ, not in ourselves. (Period) If our faith is in Christ and what he's done, we believe in Him, we are saved. Those who are, do not wonder if and when they will not be, because they are. By the very definition of "FAITH" they are saved, and that faith guides them. Not the church, not some man-made authority, but by the authority of Christ Himself. So, there is no need for the saved to question their salvation, because they have faith in it, and that faith guides, builds in them. It is what endures by Christs will, not their own will.

So there is no need to question the saved. This should be true. And, there is no need to question the unsaved when they say they are not saved, or don't know. Anyone who says they are not saved, or don't know, or can't know....can not have faith, or believe, because they are already openly saying they don't believe. They don't believe they are save, Don't believe they can know, they don't even believe they can stay saved if they even ever where.....and most of all, they don't believe the saved are saved. Why? because they don't believe. Why? because to believe you have to have faith, and to have faith you have to be changed from a state of unbelief by receiving faith from God to change, and to receive that one has to give up, or surrender themselves. For many the price is too high. Who they are I can not say, but I don't have to because they confess who they are all the time and they question the faith others say they have. They call themselves atheist, or agnostics, or even followers of Christ, some of them, yet all of them, just like atheist, agree, they do not know salvation and won't, or can't.

That is an interesting observation that you made about the pattern of the "saved" claimants and the "I don't know" people. I can also see that pattern, now that you've pointed it out.



I still want to try to make you further understand the point of view of the "I don't truly know who is and who isn't" people.

Let's say, I somehow rounded up 100,000,000 people who claimed that they are "saved Christians". I say, it's extremely possible that when all is said and done, at least one of these people will have proven to have either lost their salvation, or they were never saved in the first place, whichever way you like to put it. So, in conclusion, my questioning of a person's salvation, even if I only give their possible loss of salvation a .0001% chance, is valid. Can you agree?

 

[John Zain]

Simply put, God desires all men to be saved - but chooses not to.

IMO, God does NOT give ALL men the gift of grace-faith-salvation (Eph 2:8-9).
If He did/does, only a small percentage respond positively to Jesus and His gospel.
IMO, God gives this gift to SOME people in ALL tribes, ethnic groups, nations, etc.

 

[John Zain]

YOU see that. The Jews were also "children of God"...

No, people do NOT see that the OT Jews were Gods "chosen people".

So, to these people ...
it's NO big deal that the Jews were left scattered all over the desert floor.

And they do NOT understand Peter when he says it will be worse than this
for Christians who are disobedient, rebellious, sinful, and many etcs.!
2 Peter 2:20-22.

If it's not incomprehensible to them ... it certainly is unacceptable to them!
It destroys their long-taught and long-held OSAS doctrine.

 

[Danus]

Who here is doubting there future salvation??? The point is that it is not certain. We have moral certainty, not absolute certainty. As long as Christ abides in me, I will go to heaven. I (and the supposed doubters, I imagine) are merely saying that it is not DONE yet. The battle continues, but we remain confident that God will aid us when we call to Him.

To say it is not certain is to doubt. That is doubt. DOUBT Noun; feeling of uncertainty or lack of conviction.

Verb
Feel uncertain about.

Your claiming that your salvation is not certain to doubting your salvation. You saying that about anyone else salvation is also doubting their salvation even if they say otherwise, yet no one is doubting your doubt.

faith, on the other hand is Complete trust or confidence in someone or something.

What do you have faith in?

Sorry, your black and white definitions need not apply.

You are trying to put me into one of two neat classes of people. Anyone who is not an OSAS person has no faith in God. That is a fallacy of definition.

I could just as easily turn this false argument on you and ask you if you can tell me with absolute certainty that you will be alive one hour from now, and then call you a doubter for saying "no". What person would say that they know with absolute certainty that they will be alive/girlfriend will remain faithful/car will start, etc...??? Does that mean we doubt them or the propositions? Hardly.

I said before I have "morale certitude" that I would be escatologically saved. That's a pretty high standard, I would hardly call it "doubting" as defined by most people.

Regards

All I asked is "what do you have faith in?"

I have to assume you're saying you have faith in your "moral certitude." That's the standard you measure your faith with. Based on how moral or good you are to be saved in the first place. You said so. I guess that is a pretty high standard, but I can clearly see how anyone with that standard can not possibly know they are saved at any given time, since that is a description of faith in one's self first and Christ second.

However, a faith in Christ vs ones own morality is a different kind of faith. It's a saving faith because to have faith in Christ is to have Complete trust or confidence in Christ, and Christ alone; not in ones self. After all, the bible says we are saved in Christ, not in our morality, or certainty of how "good" we are.

In its bare essentials, Christianity is faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ claimed to be the promised Messiah and the Son of God. His life was one of perfect righteousness according to the revealed law of God, and His death was an atoning sacrifice for the sins of His people.

By placing our faith and trust in Christ alone for our salvation, God takes our sin and places it on the cross of Christ and awards us, by grace, with the perfect righteousness of Christ. That, in a nutshell, is the Christian message. That is the gospel. As Christians, we are called to believe this message and live in light of it, but to live in it is to believe it.

The reason some struggle with this, is because they don't, or can't believe it in some form because it doesn’t match up with their perception of reality. This is why Jews don't believe it. Muslims don't believe it. Hindu's don't believe it. Buddhist don't believe it. Atheist don't believe it. Agnostics don't believe it., and oddly enough, many claiming to believe it don't believe it either.

They may believe that Jesus was a real person, they may believe that He died by crucifixion at the hand of the Romans, they may even believe that He led a perfect life according to God’s law, but they don’t “see” how faith in Christ makes them righteous before God. They can’t “see” Jesus atoning for their sins. They can’t “see” or “perceive” any of the great truths of Christianity, and therefore, they struggle with lack of faith, and rely instead on themselves.

As a result of this lack of perception, their Christian lives often do not reflect the fact that they really believe what they claim to believe, and often substitute the message of the bible for the efforts they make to live up to a standard that the bible says they can't live up to. They trade the good news, for the bad news. As a result, they can not know they are saved. Why they call themselves Christians in the first place I do not know.

However, there are many valid reasons for a lack of faith among Christians. The main reason we might struggle with faith is that we don’t truly know the God in whom we profess to have faith in.

In our daily lives, we don’t trust complete strangers, but the more intimately we know someone and the more time we have had to see them “in action,” the more likely we are to believe what they say. But if God is essentially a stranger to us, we are less likely to believe what He has said in His Word. The only cure for this is to spend more time in God’s Word getting to know Him, and often this is what the born again do. They may get lazy in their faith, but God calls them back. It does not mean they are in and out of God's grace.

Another reason is that "The world", the flesh, and the devil often distract us. By “the world” is meant the accepted “wisdom” of the unbelieving world and the culture in which we find ourselves. It could be things like "worldviews" like naturalism, materialism, skepticism, and atheism. And other "isms"-worldviews that have infiltrated the church disguised as Christian.

“The flesh,” refers to our sinful nature that still clings to Christians and with which we struggle on a daily basis. “The devil” refers to Satan and his horde of evil spirits who excite and entice us through the world and our senses. These things all afflict us and can cause us to struggle with faith, but that does not mean we are out of God's grace if we are the born again, because the born again, always get through these things by the power of Jesus Christ, not themselves. They seek refuge in God. Always. This is why Christians need to be constantly reminded of what Christ has done for us and what our response should be.

The Apostle Paul says, “Faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ” Romans 10:17. Our faith is built up as we have the gospel continually preached to us, and the Gospel is the god news that we are saved through Christ, Christ, Christ, Christ, Christ!

There is no reason for anyone with faith in Christ, to doubt their faith. The key to that statement being "faith in Christ". If one doubts their faith, then they doubt Christ, and if they doubt Christ then they can not say they have faith in Christ. It is that black and white. It is that simple, but again “Faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ” Romans 10:17.

Look I'm not the one trying to get anyone to doubt their faith in Christ. I'm not the one saying you can't know your saved today, or tomorrow. I'm not the one saying those things to people who think their born again, saying they might not be, or questioning my own faith in Christ. That's ridiculous. Do you really want to sick with the argument that salvation in Christ is not guaranteed? If you do, then OK, You are right. You could loose what you are calling faith at any moment. A small faith is probably easily misplaced, but what a mistake. What an utter travesty to preach such a miserable twisted hopeless message that says that a believer in Christ, may not be saved, when no place does the gospel say such a thing. That's not good news. That's not faith. Hebrews 11:6. "Without faith it is impossible to please God.".....it is impossible to be saved without faith in Jesus Christ, and without faith no one can know they are saved. Ever, and so on that note I will agree with you and others that it is possible for someone with a misplaced faith to know they are saved, or that their salvation could possibly be guaranteed. But such are not the born again.

 

[francisdesales]

Simply put, God desires all men to be saved - but chooses not to.

IMO, God does NOT give ALL men the gift of grace-faith-salvation (Eph 2:8-9).
If He did/does, only a small percentage respond positively to Jesus and His gospel.
IMO, God gives this gift to SOME people in ALL tribes, ethnic groups, nations, etc.

John,

I suppose this is a bit off topic, but to respond to your comment - God's grace rains down on all men. However, all men do not respond. What we would say is that God gives everyone 'sufficient' grace, but only the elect receive 'efficacious' grace that leads to eternal life. But all of that is on the individual level. I agree that God chooses a particular "people" (Jews in the OT) to be a holy people set apart for His divine purposes.

In effect, I agree with what you are saying.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

YOU see that. The Jews were also "children of God"...

No, people do NOT see that the OT Jews were Gods "chosen people".

So, to these people ...
it's NO big deal that the Jews were left scattered all over the desert floor.

I am not sure why - maybe they haven't looked over the OT??? Maybe it is some latent anti-semeticism that a surface reading of the Gospel might elicit??

And they do NOT understand Peter when he says it will be worse than this
for Christians who are disobedient, rebellious, sinful, and many etcs.!
2 Peter 2:20-22.

That usually cuts off the discussion when I bring out the big guns of 2 Peter 2...

If it's not incomprehensible to them ... it certainly is unacceptable to them!
It destroys their long-taught and long-held OSAS doctrine.

I think it is a difficult thing to find that one's religious doctrines have holes in them. The comfort level drops when one must decide which to hold dear - the truth or a doctrine that their heart knows is false.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

All I asked is "what do you have faith in?"

I place my faith in the Holy Spirit. I certainly do not have faith in priests, etc., given the Catholic Church's issues 5 years ago in the United States. All things work for the greater good to those who love God. If it was not for the Spirit of God, I would have put the Church aside, since my faith would have been crushed seeing a highly respected man doing what they did - AND the worse, in my opinion, was the coverup by some bishops after the fact...

So yes, my faith is pretty strong in God, not man, my friend.

I have to assume you're saying you have faith in your "moral certitude."

I don't have faith "IN" my level of certitude. It is faith that God will see me in Christ. I cannot say whether I will fall away later in life. But as long as I remain in Chirst, I am saved in the future. With absolute certainty. 1 John 5:12.

There is no use in trying to separate my faith in God from the reality of God's Judgment being based upon our good deeds found in Christ.

However, a faith in Christ vs ones own morality is a different kind of faith. It's a saving faith because to have faith in Christ is to have Complete trust or confidence in Christ, and Christ alone; not in ones self. After all, the bible says we are saved in Christ, not in our morality, or certainty of how "good" we are.

Who is judged, you or Christ? Nowhere does Paul (or anyone) state that human participation is undesirable to God and has nothing to do with how He judges man.

In its bare essentials, Christianity is faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ claimed to be the promised Messiah and the Son of God. His life was one of perfect righteousness according to the revealed law of God, and His death was an atoning sacrifice for the sins of His people.

By placing our faith and trust in Christ alone for our salvation, God takes our sin and places it on the cross of Christ and awards us, by grace, with the perfect righteousness of Christ.

We are not "awarded" the righteousness of Christ. The only reason WHY we are seen as righteous by God is because we are in a mystical connection to Christ - what Paul calls "the Body of Christ". This "IN CHRIST" theme is THE MOST IMPORTANT PART of the Gospel. As we abide in Christ, we gain righteousness. We are not given something that Christ separates from Himself, nor are we given a "legal pass" that states we are something that we are not. (being declared righteous when we are not).

Paul makes it clear that we are to be united with the "career" of Christ through baptism. That union is a real union, not metaphorical or symbolic one. It is that abiding presence (as John calls it) that makes Christ work even applicable to us in the first place.

There is no reason for anyone with faith in Christ, to doubt their faith.

You are missing the point. We don't doubt our faith and its content. We just don't accept your interpretation of the idea that faith is irrevocable and cannot be lost, when people see it first-hand. They experience it. They FEEL it. Scriptures as a whole doesn't teach it. The "lack of faith" is the lack of belief in the faulty gospel of not being able to lose our inheritance due to our own desires to return to our former life of sin. An example is 2 Peter 2, which you have now ignored.

The key to that statement being "faith in Christ".

The issue is not "faith in Christ". The issue is perseverance and obedience to Christ.

Ever, and so on that note I will agree with you and others that it is possible for someone with a misplaced faith to know they are saved, or that their salvation could possibly be guaranteed. But such are not the born again.

Which verse in Scripture will you cite me to show this explanation that a "born again" cannot lose eschatological salvation??? Are you saying that all of those warnings to CHRISTIANS was only meant for the unwashed masses, while the "super" Christian born agains are not subject to Paul - or Peter's - warnings over and over again???

 

[John Zain]

I place my faith in the Holy Spirit. I certainly do not have faith in priests, etc.,
given the Catholic Church's issues 5 years ago in the United States.
All things work for the greater good to those who love God.
If it was not for the Spirit of God, I would have put the Church aside, since my faith
would have been crushed seeing a highly respected man doing what they did -
AND the worse, in my opinion, was the coverup by some bishops after the fact...

Yes, all sin is revealed sooner or later
... this particular sin has been going on for MANY centuries.

But, IMO, in these last days, God in His enormous grace, has revealed it ...
hopefully to direct peoples' attention/worship towards Him instead of towards man.

All I have to say is ... Praise the Lord!

 

[Danus]

I place my faith in the Holy Spirit. I certainly do not have faith in priests, etc., given the Catholic Church's issues 5 years ago in the United States. All things work for the greater good to those who love God. If it was not for the Spirit of God, I would have put the Church aside, since my faith would have been crushed seeing a highly respected man doing what they did - AND the worse, in my opinion, was the coverup by some bishops after the fact...

So yes, my faith is pretty strong in God, not man, my friend.



I don't have faith "IN" my level of certitude. It is faith that God will see me in Christ. I cannot say whether I will fall away later in life. But as long as I remain in Chirst, I am saved in the future. With absolute certainty. 1 John 5:12.

There is no use in trying to separate my faith in God from the reality of God's Judgment being based upon our good deeds found in Christ.



Who is judged, you or Christ? Nowhere does Paul (or anyone) state that human participation is undesirable to God and has nothing to do with how He judges man.

In its bare essentials, Christianity is faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ claimed to be the promised Messiah and the Son of God. His life was one of perfect righteousness according to the revealed law of God, and His death was an atoning sacrifice for the sins of His people.

By placing our faith and trust in Christ alone for our salvation, God takes our sin and places it on the cross of Christ and awards us, by grace, with the perfect righteousness of Christ.

We are not "awarded" the righteousness of Christ. The only reason WHY we are seen as righteous by God is because we are in a mystical connection to Christ - what Paul calls "the Body of Christ". This "IN CHRIST" theme is THE MOST IMPORTANT PART of the Gospel. As we abide in Christ, we gain righteousness. We are not given something that Christ separates from Himself, nor are we given a "legal pass" that states we are something that we are not. (being declared righteous when we are not).

Paul makes it clear that we are to be united with the "career" of Christ through baptism. That union is a real union, not metaphorical or symbolic one. It is that abiding presence (as John calls it) that makes Christ work even applicable to us in the first place.

There is no reason for anyone with faith in Christ, to doubt their faith.

You are missing the point. We don't doubt our faith and its content. We just don't accept your interpretation of the idea that faith is irrevocable and cannot be lost, when people see it first-hand. They experience it. They FEEL it. Scriptures as a whole doesn't teach it. The "lack of faith" is the lack of belief in the faulty gospel of not being able to lose our inheritance due to our own desires to return to our former life of sin. An example is 2 Peter 2, which you have now ignored.

The key to that statement being "faith in Christ".

The issue is not "faith in Christ". The issue is perseverance and obedience to Christ.

Ever, and so on that note I will agree with you and others that it is possible for someone with a misplaced faith to know they are saved, or that their salvation could possibly be guaranteed. But such are not the born again.

Which verse in Scripture will you cite me to show this explanation that a "born again" cannot lose eschatological salvation??? Are you saying that all of those warnings to CHRISTIANS was only meant for the unwashed masses, while the "super" Christian born agains are not subject to Paul - or Peter's - warnings over and over again???

We are not "awarded" the righteousness of Christ. The only reason WHY we are seen as righteous by God is because we are in a mystical connection to Christ - what Paul calls "the Body of Christ". This "IN CHRIST" theme is THE MOST IMPORTANT PART of the Gospel. As we abide in Christ, we gain righteousness.

Your words above brother. What % of righteousness would you say your at at this point? 100%, 90%, 29%??? I ask because your not clear on what saved is. You seem to think of salvation as some sort of progression, so where are you in your process? How worthy are you to be saved today? Would you say or can you even know? I'm asking you. I can't speak for you & you can't speak for me on this, because I know I'm saved & you said you don't . So how saved are you today?


I apologize. I'm working from an iPhone so I have to copy paste some of your quotes but here you say; "I place my faith in the Holy Spirit. I certainly do not have faith in priests, etc., given the Catholic
Church's issues 5 years ago in the United States. All things work for the greater good to those who
love God. If it was not for the Spirit of God, I would have put the Church aside, since my faith
would have been crushed seeing a highly respected man doing what they did - AND the worse, in
my opinion, was the coverup by some bishops after the fact... So yes, my faith is pretty strong in God, not man, my friend.

So if you faith is in the Holly Spirit, how is it possible you can not know you are saved? If your faith is in God then you are saved. Have you ever been saved then not saved? Why is it you seem to suggest those of us who say we know we are saved. are not or can't know? Why would you say that?

 

[Grappler]

Thank you for the non sequitar, since the Bible RARELY MENTIONS the term "born again", and not with "children of God". Thus, no matter what I say, you could make the same statement. It doesn't mention born again children GOING TO HEAVEN, either, if you want to play this out to its logical conclusion.



As I just got done writing Danus in #208, the passage in question is more than just some people "exposed to the Gospel", for it speaks of "avoiding the corruption of the world". Now, what do you suppose that is, and HOW does the Gospel itself teach that one is freed from this "corruption"??? Do you have another means by which men are saved under heaven besides Jesus and belief in His redemption of men??? It says that this person ESCAPED from it. Not HEARD about it after reading a tract that came in the mailbox...



Already have.
You denying their plain exegesis doesn't make them any less Scriptures that show that someone is WORSE OFF than BEFORE escaping the corruptions of the world by returning to their former life of sin.

Can you do that? What we seem to be debating is the "age old" debate of whether or not one can lose their salvation.

Actually, it is age-old in the sense that new Christians are constantly hearing this false gospel and are grow to maturity and move away from it.
A definition of terms would help, since using the generic term "salvation" is confusing. That is why I use the term "eschatological salvation", which clearly means something more than just the generic "salvation", which can be taken to mean our initial justification, our ongoing sanctification, or our final end in heaven after judgment. Once Christians become aware of these things are the Scriptures are pointed out, they move on from the milk of OSAS and leave it behind. At least that is my experience in discussing these matters for ten years.

Sure both sides can pick and choose verses to support their stance but when scripture is properly studied within context and logic is applied your side loses francis.

So sayeth you. Unfortunately, you aren't going to be able to use an "argument from Grappler authority" on me here. Perhaps you can detail more carefully the man described in 2 Peter and how he escaped the corruptions of the world WITHOUT converting to Christ???

DO you have some other way of being saved from sin in mind, Grappler???

You really are confused about this Jewish "thing" you keep refering to. You are comparing apples and oranges.lol

Tell that to Paul, he makes the comparison in 1 Cor 10. Why haven't you read it yet??? I have cited it several times to prove my point.

Do you not understand that there is a difference between the Old Covevant and the New Covenant? The Old Covenant is over with...let it go....that is why Jesus came.

You need to qualify that, since part of "the Old Covenant" can be said to be irrevocable.
Furthermore, since you continue to refuse to read Romans 9-11, it seems clear that you are missing out on the relationship between the Jews and the Gentile Christians. It is the GENTILES who are being grafted INTO the root of Judaism, in particular, the Jewish Patriarchs.

Yes francis the Pharisees were the Jewish leaders that i was refering to...very good. Well...what does being born-again mean to you if you understand it as you claim?

I am not falling for that trick question.

It is not a trick question....it is a question that i think every child of God would love to tell everyone. Why can't you? Let me ask you this...have you been born-again?

 

[chessman]

Francisdesales,

I'm just wanting to make sure I’m not overlooking something within your arguments here.
When you state that 2 Peter 2:21 is a convincing supporting Scripture toward your argument

The kicker for me, though, is verse 21

in that it is giving an example of someone who is once saved then losing their salvation, where do you get that this passage is describing someone that was ever saved to begin? It seems to me that this passage clearly is not addressing someone that was ever saved to begin with. Can you explain where you see it otherwise? In Verse 2 we have:

But false prophets arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. These false teachers will infiltrate your midst with destructive heresies, even to the point of denying the Master who bought them.
​

So at least in verse 2 they are false prophets and deny the Master. Sounds pretty unsaved to me. But if that wasn’t clear enough it says in verse 3,

Their condemnation pronounced long ago is not sitting idly by; their destruction is not asleep.
​

Peter then contrasts the false prophets’ treatment with Noah’s and Lot’s with:

and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man in anguish over the debauched lifestyle of lawless men…the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from their trials, and to reserve the unrighteous for punishment at the day of judgment
​

versus

these men, like irrational animals—creatures of instinct, born to be caught and destroyed—do not understand whom they are insulting, and consequently in their destruction they will be destroyed
​

Peter describes these false prophets actions and eventual destination a little more with:

These men are waterless springs and mists driven by a storm, for whom the utter depths of darkness have been reserved. …Although these false teachers promise such people freedom, they themselves are enslaved to immorality
​

So then we get you verses 20-22 for which you say describe someone that has lost their salvation. If 20-22 was describing Noah or Lot (were in verses 5 and 7 they were described as heralding righteousness and righteous men), I’d say you were correct. However, clearly (giving the text a fair chance to speak for itself) seems to indicate that the false prophets (who’s condemnation was pronounced long ago) are the “they†that are being described in 20-22. Peter is saying there “last state†is worse than the first. He never says the “first†was anything great to begin with.


Also a second question I have from your apologetic argument is:

we remain confident that God will aid us when we call to Him.

When the subject is our confidence in our salvation (OP), how do you reconcile a statement like yours above with,

Acts 4:12 “12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among people by which we must be saved.â€
​

Seems like your equation is adding God to form a mixture of us plus God, when Scripture (Through Peter, as Luke is quoting Peter here) says otherwise. Clearly the context of Acts 4:12 is salvation so I’m at a loss to understand how Acts 4:12 can be understood to say anything other than what it does say. That is, salvation is a one man act, not an aid to us.

But again, I may be mis-understanding these Scriptures.

Can you clarify where I’m in error?

 

[francisdesales]

Your words above brother. What % of righteousness would you say your at at this point? 100%, 90%, 29%???

100% when I am in Christ. 0% when I am sinning. Same as you.

People who think they are in Christ while living in sin are deluded - that includes OSAS "super-duper" Christians who make this claim. Really, really, REALLY thinking otherwise and believing it with "absolute certainty" doesn't erase ignorance, when Scriptures state otherwise.

If we say that we have fellowship with him and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth; But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have communion with him in the midst of us, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son cleanses us from all sin. 1 John 1:6-7

I ask because your not clear on what saved is.

LOL!!!

I have mentioned that it is the "other side" that is not clear, which is why I use the term "eschatological salvation", rather than just "salvation". The term is too broad to use when we start talking at a more serious level. Given the discussion, I am generally refering to "eschatological". Initial salvation can NEVER be lost, which is something quite different from the OSAS crew, since later on, it can be discovered that you never
WERE saved to begin with. Thus, you initial salvation is taken away and one discovers just how secure "OSAS" really is.

You seem to think of salvation as some sort of progression, so where are you in your process?

Paul says the same thing, we are "BEING saved", as a process. Where am I? I don't see this as something measureable so as to answer your question satisfactorily. In the last few months, I would say it has been improving, based upon my grouping with other brothers and my own self-examinations.

How worthy are you to be saved today?

I am sensing some sort of sarcasm here. Correct me if I am wrong...:gah

But I see that this line of questioning is not out of interest of my soul...

And just because you THINK you are saved irrevocably doesn't make it so. People used to think that the world was flat. Didn't make it so.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

I am not falling for that trick question.

It is not a trick question....it is a question that i think every child of God would love to tell everyone. Why can't you? Let me ask you this...have you been born-again?

Well, if you "think every child of God would love to tell everyone", then why haven't YOU yet???

Let me hear your definition and I'll tell you what I think.

Regards

 

[Danus]

100% when I am in Christ. 0% when I am sinning.

Same as you.



LOL!!!

I have mentioned that it is the "other side" that is not clear, which is why I use the term "eschatological salvation", rather than just "salvation". The term is too broad to use when we start talking at a more serious level. Given the discussion, I am generally refering to "eschatological". Initial salvation can NEVER be lost, which is something quite different from the OSAS crew, since later on, it can be discovered that you never
WERE saved to begin with. Thus, you initial salvation is taken away and one discovers just how secure "OSAS" really is.



Paul says the same thing, we are "BEING saved", as a process. Where am I? I don't see this as something measureable so as to answer your question satisfactorily. In the last few months, I would say it has been improving, based upon my grouping with other brothers and my own self-examinations.

How worthy are you to be saved today?

I am sensing some sort of sarcasm here. Correct me if I am wrong...:gah

But I see that this line of questioning is not out of interest of my soul...

And just because you THINK you are saved irrevocably doesn't make it so. People used to think that the world was flat. Didn't make it so.

Regards

Well, I certainly don't mind you expressing what you believe but I don't understand why you have to have me joined I your belief. You keep referring to my salvation when you describe yours & I don't appreciate that.

You are the one saying you may or may not be saved. I am saying I am saved. So why do you want me joined at your side I. Your condition when I've stated otherwise. Your salvation is not just like mine. Your unsure. You said that of yourself. So let that be you Ok?,

I am 100% saved in Christ, today, tomorrow & to the end. I can't speak for you, but I'm hearing that you not by your own admission. Christ is in me, working in me & He will continue to do that. My faith is directed towards Christ. Yours is when you feel it is. You said that, So we are not the same.

 

[francisdesales]

Francisdesales,

I'm just wanting to make sure I’m not overlooking something within your arguments here.
When you state that 2 Peter 2:21 is a convincing supporting Scripture toward your argument

The kicker for me, though, is verse 21

in that it is giving an example of someone who is once saved then losing their salvation, where do you get that this passage is describing someone that was ever saved to begin? It seems to me that this passage clearly is not addressing someone that was ever saved to begin with. Can you explain where you see it otherwise?

See post #208. I have explained it there and several other places lately, forgive me if I am not about to do it a fourth time so recently.

Also a second question I have from your apologetic argument is:

we remain confident that God will aid us when we call to Him.

When the subject is our confidence in our salvation (OP), how do you reconcile a statement like yours above with,

Acts 4:12 “12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among people by which we must be saved.”
​

Seems like your equation is adding God to form a mixture of us plus God, when Scripture (Through Peter, as Luke is quoting Peter here) says otherwise. Clearly the context of Acts 4:12 is salvation so I’m at a loss to understand how Acts 4:12 can be understood to say anything other than what it does say. That is, salvation is a one man act, not an aid to us.

Is it not evident from Scriptures that one must call upon God and ask for forgiveness BEFORE He grants it?

Now, granted, my calling for forgiveness is in of itself a grace. It is a grace given to all men, however. Those who answer or respond to that call, God has elected, predestined into the Church. Why did I respond and not someone else? A grace from God that precedes any action that I take or could merit.

"Let us consider what He has done for us... There is no fear that a perception of what He has given you will puff you up, so long as you keep steadily in mind that whatever is good in you is not of yourself." St. Francis de Sales



Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Well, I certainly don't mind you expressing what you believe but I don't understand why you have to have me joined I your belief. You keep referring to my salvation when you describe yours & I don't appreciate that.

If you believe you are saved, absolutely certain, and are referring to final judgment, well, you are wrong. No one can know that before they stand before the Christ. Belief otherwise doesn't make it so. The best we can hope for is to remain in Christ and rely on His promises to those who have faith working in love. That is why it is called "faith" and "hope". You do understand the definitions of these words?

God's sovereignty will not be set aside. He will judge us. All of us, whether we believe that or not. Judgment is based upon what we do here.

Now, if you have absolute confidence that you are not going to commit a deadly sin between now and then, is it a wonder why people consider such talk "presumptuous"?

You are the one saying you may or may not be saved.

What kind of "saved" am I?

I am saying I am saved.

What kind of "saved" are you? Didn't you just get done telling me about being more clear in using the term "saved"?

I am 100% saved in Christ, today, tomorrow & to the end.

As long as you remain in Him, one can have that confidence. However, you know that a year from now, with absolute certainty, that you will display "saving faith"??? You know this with absolute certainty??? Knowing full well that your interpretations are being made by a fallible man??? Based upon an unknowable future that God will allow to happen??? You will have saving faith in 10 years???

Excuse me, but I don't believe anyone can know that with "absolute certainty".

Are you telling me you never had a strong belief and then later changed your mind or re-considered what you thought? Having new evidence that could make you re-think the situation is kept under wraps in case the theology is overturned so as not to disrupt the "absolute certainty"??? You have no idea what will happen 10 years from now, presuming you are still alive. It strikes me as adolescent to make such claims. Experience in life teaches us otherwise.

Oh yea, I can talk the talk that I would do "x" when subject to "y". But when "y" actually happens, THAT is when the rubber meets the road, when reality sets in, and often, our most cherished ideas and thoughts about OURSELVES are overturned...

Example; Combat.

One is trained and taught and they strongly believe that under fire, a soldier would respond appropriately. "oh, no, I will not run away, I will kill any enemy that comes over here, blah blah..." Big words and talk based on our BELIEFS in something we have NOT EXPERIENCED. But when men "see the elephant" or come under fire, all of those lofty thoughts mean crap when your life is at risk. THAT is when you learn something about yourself. And in SOME people, it is not pretty - that knowledge about self. Things that you could never imagine yourself doing - you do.

Another example; adultery.

How many pastors thought that they would break the commandment of God and cheat on their wife, even to the point of leaving ministry??? Don't you think that a year before the temptation, they talked the same talk you are now??? So I imagine "they never were saved to begin with"??? Sophistry, plain and simple.

So don't tell me about 'absolute certainty' of what will happen years and years from now.

We don't have absolute certainty about anything in the future of this life, except that we will die...

You can't even know if you will be breathing tomorrow, much less usurp God's sovereignty to judge you as He sees fit...

----------------

I apologize if this part may seem "realistically harsh", but I've been alive for awhile and have experienced a thing or two. "Talk is cheap", they say. With good reason. I've seen lots of talk and little action to back it up from some people. Not meant as a dig to you, but refering to people I have met in my life who THOUGHT they knew themselves pretty well. And then they screwed up.

Regards