Will all born-again Christians make it to heaven?

[Grappler]

God did NOT choose the Jews as a people.
Are you not aware that Jews are just one of the twelve tribes of Israel?

Don't know if you have any use for DNA, but ...
http://www.texemarrs.com/042013/jews_not_descendants_of_abraham.htm

Do you know what happens when you assume Zain?? You assume that i don't know the difference between Ashkenazi Jews and "Jews" who are descendants of the tribe of Judeah. The term "Jew" can be traced back to Jude, one of the sons of Israel. Now as for your comment about DNA. Yes Zain I understand, unlike most people Christian or not, that most "Jews" today are NOT genetically related to Abraham. They are descendants of the Khazars a nation of Gentiles descended from Japheth who adopted Judaism around 700 AD. Yes i like Texe Marrs also.

I'm no fan of Texe Marrs.
But, DNA shows that the Jews in Israel were NOT descended from the 12 tribes.
Ergo, they have NO biblical claim on their land.
However, why did the Lord miraculously make them victorious in their recent wars?
You don't have the answer.
Anywho ... let's return to the OP.

So you don't like ol' Texe but you sure didn't mind using his material huh?lol Here is what you said Zain...'However, why did the Lord miraculously make them victorious in their recent wars?' This is a rather silly question. Can you be a little more specific as to which recent wars you are referring? And why do you assume (again) that the Lord had anything to do with these victories you are referring to? Furthermore after asking your silly question that had nothing to do with the topic you don't even allow me the chance to answer. That is rather rude don't you think? But ofcourse we are not face to face and it is easier to be rude online. Soooo anywho...

 

[Grappler]

You (Sales) belittle the sacrifice that Jesus made in making the claim that in addition to
putting our faith in Jesus we must also add our own works in order to maintain our salvation.

Throughout the entire Bible ...

God never has considered man CO-OPERATING with Him as being works,
and ...
God never has considered man being OBEDIENT to Him as being works.

In the NT, it says that such things are JUST our NORMAL DUTY.

whay are you talking about??:crazy

 

[francisdesales]

How does a born-again Christian NOT make it to heaven?

If God finds that one has turned from righteousness to wickedness, that one shall not enter the kingdom. According to Paul in several places. He even lists specific sins for us in Romans, Galatians, Ephesians and 1 Corinthians. That's just for starters. Our actions in life are the basis of God's judgment of all men.

What tips that scale? I don't know. A life of unrepentant wickedness is not one that will be rewarded with heaven, no matter what you did 20 years ago. Ez 18 makes that clear. We must believe NOW in God, not "once upon a time".

Returning to a life of sin after receiving the enlightenment that comes with Christ will not end well for the formerly born-again Christian. God is not a respecter of persons. We are not in a position over and above the Jews, who also were God's People - and they didn't all make it to heaven, either.

 

[chessman]

If God finds that one has turned from righteousness to wickedness, that one shall not enter the kingdom. According to Paul in several places.

any god that wakes up one day and "finds" anything that he didn't already know is not the God revealed in Scripture? God knows all things pre and post their occurrence. Jer 1:5 and others.

Like what places in Paul do you reference?

 

[chessman]

How does a born-again Christian NOT make it to heaven?

You must have missed John 3:3's New International re-re translation that says in John 3:3

3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.[a] [and again and again each new day]

Footnotes: John 3:3 The Greek for again also means from above; also in verse 7.
​

Or it's 1 Peter 1:3 that says:
3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead [then taken it away, then given it again, then taken it away]

 

[Danus]

If God finds that one has turned from righteousness to wickedness, that one shall not enter the kingdom. According to Paul in several places. He even lists specific sins for us in Romans, Galatians, Ephesians and 1 Corinthians. That's just for starters. Our actions in life are the basis of God's judgment of all men. What tips that scale? I don't know. A life of unrepentant wickedness is not one that will be rewarded with heaven, no matter what you did 20 years ago. Ez 18 makes that clear. We must believe NOW in God, not "once upon a time". Returning to a life of sin after receiving the enlightenment that comes with Christ will not end well for the formerly born-again Christian. God is not a respecter of persons. We are not in a position over and above the Jews, who also were God's People - and they didn't all make it to heaven, either.

FOUL!, the "born again Christian"....does not.....turn away from Christ back to a life lost in sin and fall out of God's grace. This is a point brought up over and over again, yet it get's ignored. You are ignoring the concept and creating an idea, or definition of "born again" based on your theology and not the protestant theology.

I'm not going to claim to be an expert on purgatory because I don't believe in it. You won't here me even making a definition of it because for me it's a completely made up idea. I would assume you'd think the same way about the term "BORN AGAIN", so why are you speaking on something you don't even believe?

According to Paul in several places. He even lists specific sins for us in Romans, Galatians, Ephesians and 1 Corinthians. That's just for starters. Our actions in life are the basis of God's judgment of all men.

The emphasis on one's ability to enter heaven in what your saying here above, is based on one ability to not sin, or commit specific sins. That's just incorrect in and of itself, and there lies the problem. You are leaving God out. Your are leaving the sovereignty of God out in saying that and placing the full culpability on man kind. You simply can not do that alone and be biblical.

The bible teaches that man is sinful. Yes there is the Christian life which is a life of repentance and turning from sin, but the emphasis of that, is GOD not man. That's where ones faith comes in. You either have faith in faith, in ones ability to do something correctly, or you have faith in Christ who have the power to change you to His will.

Often when I have these conversations with my RCC friends, we seem to end on that same note in some round abut way, but you've left it completely out.

How about you describe what you think born again is. You said the former born again. No where did Paul say those who are born again then falling back. You assume he is meaning those people "Born Again" because of verses like Hebrews 6: 1-12 when he describes those who are enlightened, which only means Having or showing a rational, modern, and well-informed outlook. That is not BORN AGAIN.

Born Again (the exact words) are only mentioned 3 times in the King James Version.John 3:3; 3:7 and I Peter 1:23, but there ARE many phrases that mean the same thing! Is "enlightened" one of those words? let's try it and see. John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be "enlightened", he cannot see the kingdom of God.


Let's see how the modern dictionary would see these words.
BORN: Adjective

1. Existing as a result of birth: "he was born in Seattle"; "a German-born philosopher".
2. Having a natural ability to do a particular job or task.

enlightened
Adjective

1. Having or showing a rational, modern, and well-informed outlook.
2. Spiritually aware.

These are not the same. One is being MADE NEW "BORN AGAIN" The other is being informed of something.

 

[VirginShallConceive]

FOUL!, the "born again Christian"....does not.....turn away from Christ back to a life lost in sin and fall out of God's grace."

This may be true, but you will never know who is truly "born again" until you are joined with them in Heaven.

In other words, I can't guarantee from my standpoint that any of the people who claim to be "born again" will definitely join me in Heaven. By the same reasoning, nobody could be certain, from their standpoint, that I, with all my claims, will be in Heaven.

In other words, the mere claim of being "born again" means nothing on its own until all is said and done. You might as well substitute the term "born again" with "Heaven bound", because it carries the same weight.

If you stick around long enough, you will witness people who you were certain were "born again" prove that they "weren't" all along.

"In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them." -2 Corinthians 4:4

"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;" -1 Timothy 4:1

 

[Danus]

This may be true, but you will never know who is truly "born again" until you are joined with them in Heaven.

Might be true for you, but I would not speak for you. There are many people who do not, and will tell you, can not know they are saved.

 

[John Zain]

And so those who do not persevere until the end, as Jesus states, will be lost. The Bible makes this crystal-clear in virtually every book of the NT.

Is it against the rules to put someone on the spot?
I'll risk it ...
What percentage of those born from above would you guess the Holy Spirit
is successful in ... leading to persevere to the end unto salvation?

... so I would say less than half

I was hoping you'd fall for it.
Now, in which half d'you think the debster falls? :toofunny :toofunny :toofunny

 

[VirginShallConceive]

This may be true, but you will never know who is truly "born again" until you are joined with them in Heaven.

Might be true for you, but I would not speak for you. There are many people who do not, and will tell you, can not know they are saved.

I agree with this. I believe that my post does as well. Can you clarify?

 

[Danus]

This may be true, but you will never know who is truly "born again" until you are joined with them in Heaven.

Might be true for you, but I would not speak for you. There are many people who do not, and will tell you, can not know they are saved.

I agree with this. I believe that my post does as well. Can you clarify?

I suppose.

About a year ago I started a thread simply titled; "Do You Know You Are Saved?" Many people said yes. and some calling themselves Christians, followers of Christ said NO, but what was even more fascinating is that at one point some of the people saying NO, also wanted to say that the people who said they where saved, did not really know they where saved. yet the people who said they are saved never, ever disagreed with the ones who said thwey where not saved, or that it was not true that they did not know they where saved, or could not know.

The saved never questioned the unsaved, but the unsaved questioned the saved.

That is the same thing we have with this thread.

Those that do not know they are saved, say they can not know, and never will until they die I guess.....are often the ones questioning the salvation of those who say they are saved. Yet the saved never question the doubt of the unsaved, other than to try and convince them they are or can be, and can know.

If I have something, and can only get it from God, then all I can tell anyone is where I got it. But If I have nothing and are trying to seek something, then all I can tell anyone else is how I'm getting something that I am still looking for, and if they say that they already have it, well that's just not possible because I don't have it and I'm seeking it, and if they want it then they better do what I'm doing or they will not have it either......but they already do.

We are saved in Jesus Christ, not in ourselves. (Period) If our faith is in Christ and what he's done, we believe in Him, we are saved. Those who are, do not wonder if and when they will not be, because they are. By the very definition of "FAITH" they are saved, and that faith guides them. Not the church, not some man-made authority, but by the authority of Christ Himself. So, there is no need for the saved to question their salvation, because they have faith in it, and that faith guides, builds in them. It is what endures by Christs will, not their own will.

So there is no need to question the saved. This should be true. And, there is no need to question the unsaved when they say they are not saved, or don't know. Anyone who says they are not saved, or don't know, or can't know....can not have faith, or believe, because they are already openly saying they don't believe. They don't believe they are save, Don't believe they can know, they don't even believe they can stay saved if they even ever where.....and most of all, they don't believe the saved are saved. Why? because they don't believe. Why? because to believe you have to have faith, and to have faith you have to be changed from a state of unbelief by receiving faith from God to change, and to receive that one has to give up, or surrender themselves. For many the price is too high. Who they are I can not say, but I don't have to because they confess who they are all the time and they question the faith others say they have. They call themselves atheist, or agnostics, or even followers of Christ, some of them, yet all of them, just like atheist, agree, they do not know salvation and won't, or can't.

 

[Grappler]

How does a born-again Christian NOT make it to heaven?

If God finds that one has turned from righteousness to wickedness, that one shall not enter the kingdom. According to Paul in several places. He even lists specific sins for us in Romans, Galatians, Ephesians and 1 Corinthians. That's just for starters. Our actions in life are the basis of God's judgment of all men.

What tips that scale? I don't know. A life of unrepentant wickedness is not one that will be rewarded with heaven, no matter what you did 20 years ago. Ez 18 makes that clear. We must believe NOW in God, not "once upon a time".

Returning to a life of sin after receiving the enlightenment that comes with Christ will not end well for the formerly born-again Christian. God is not a respecter of persons. We are not in a position over and above the Jews, who also were God's People - and they didn't all make it to heaven, either.

Please provide specific scripture that teaches a born-again Christian will NOT make it to "heaven". And while you are at it please show me where a born-again Christian will be judged and cast into the lake of fire. Actually we as children of God are in a postition over and above the Jews. Jesus told the Jewish leaders of his day that they were children of the devil....that doesn't sound like God's People as you say. I don't really think you understand what it means to be born-again...what does born-again mean to you?

 

[francisdesales]

If God finds that one has turned from righteousness to wickedness, that one shall not enter the kingdom. According to Paul in several places.

any god that wakes up one day and "finds" anything that he didn't already know is not the God revealed in Scripture? God knows all things pre and post their occurrence. Jer 1:5 and others.

Like what places in Paul do you reference?

I certainly don't mean that God is unaware of anything, as if someone falling away would somehow surprise God.

Simply put, God desires all men to be saved - but chooses not to.

 

[francisdesales]

Please provide specific scripture that teaches a born-again Christian will NOT make it to "heaven".

They have already been given. I'll just start with two, rather than listing numerous citations.

2 Peter 2:20-22. Hebrews 10:26-30

And while you are at it please show me where a born-again Christian will be judged and cast into the lake of fire.

See above. Anyone found as wicked will be locked out of the Kingdom. No "wedding" cloak - which is our good deeds given to us through grace, no heaven. Cast out into the night.

Actually we as children of God are in a postition over and above the Jews.

YOU see that. The Jews were also "children of God"... Paul uses them as a SIGN to not be presumptuous, like they were. 1 Cor 10. Presumption didn't win them heaven.

Jesus told the Jewish leaders of his day that they were children of the devil....that doesn't sound like God's People as you say. I don't really think you understand what it means to be born-again...what does born-again mean to you?

Jesus was speaking to Pharisees who argued with him, not every single Jew. Paul himself realizes the Jews' position. Read Romans 9-11 again.

I understand what "born again" means.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

This may be true, but you will never know who is truly "born again" until you are joined with them in Heaven.

Might be true for you, but I would not speak for you. There are many people who do not, and will tell you, can not know they are saved.

I agree with this. I believe that my post does as well. Can you clarify?

I suppose.

About a year ago I started a thread simply titled; "Do You Know You Are Saved?" Many people said yes. and some calling themselves Christians, followers of Christ said NO, but what was even more fascinating is that at one point some of the people saying NO, also wanted to say that the people who said they where saved, did not really know they where saved. yet the people who said they are saved never, ever disagreed with the ones who said thwey where not saved, or that it was not true that they did not know they where saved, or could not know.

The saved never questioned the unsaved, but the unsaved questioned the saved.

That is the same thing we have with this thread.

Those that do not know they are saved, say they can not know, and never will until they die I guess.....are often the ones questioning the salvation of those who say they are saved. Yet the saved never question the doubt of the unsaved, other than to try and convince them they are or can be, and can know.

If I have something, and can only get it from God, then all I can tell anyone is where I got it. But If I have nothing and are trying to seek something, then all I can tell anyone else is how I'm getting something that I am still looking for, and if they say that they already have it, well that's just not possible because I don't have it and I'm seeking it, and if they want it then they better do what I'm doing or they will not have it either......but they already do.

We are saved in Jesus Christ, not in ourselves. (Period) If our faith is in Christ and what he's done, we believe in Him, we are saved. Those who are, do not wonder if and when they will not be, because they are. By the very definition of "FAITH" they are saved, and that faith guides them. Not the church, not some man-made authority, but by the authority of Christ Himself. So, there is no need for the saved to question their salvation, because they have faith in it, and that faith guides, builds in them. It is what endures by Christs will, not their own will.

So there is no need to question the saved. This should be true. And, there is no need to question the unsaved when they say they are not saved, or don't know. Anyone who says they are not saved, or don't know, or can't know....can not have faith, or believe, because they are already openly saying they don't believe. They don't believe they are save, Don't believe they can know, they don't even believe they can stay saved if they even ever where.....and most of all, they don't believe the saved are saved. Why? because they don't believe. Why? because to believe you have to have faith, and to have faith you have to be changed from a state of unbelief by receiving faith from God to change, and to receive that one has to give up, or surrender themselves. For many the price is too high. Who they are I can not say, but I don't have to because they confess who they are all the time and they question the faith others say they have. They call themselves atheist, or agnostics, or even followers of Christ, some of them, yet all of them, just like atheist, agree, they do not know salvation and won't, or can't.

It doesn't sound like you have a handle on what the "doubters on whether they are saved" are actually stating.

The question is not over whether one HAS been saved, the question is whether that salvation of the past translates into automatic and irrevocable heaven. Salvation in Scriptures refers to not only the past, but to the present and the future. Confusing the past with the future leads to problems. Confusing the "what ought to be" with the "what is" also leads to problems.

The Bible states that judgment is based upon good deeds done by someone - in Christ - for the Christian. Eschatological salvation is not about one moment in time years and years ago - it is about believing in God NOW and continuing in it. Persevering in it. CHRIST is not judged. The believer/unbeliever is judged. It does not follow that once you are saved, you will REMAIN faithful, Christ HIMSELF has stated this over and over again.

Regards

 

[Grappler]

They have already been given. I'll just start with two, rather than listing numerous citations.

2 Peter 2:20-22. Hebrews 10:26-30



See above. Anyone found as wicked will be locked out of the Kingdom. No "wedding" cloak - which is our good deeds given to us through grace, no heaven. Cast out into the night.



YOU see that. The Jews were also "children of God"... Paul uses them as a SIGN to not be presumptuous, like they were. 1 Cor 10. Presumption didn't win them heaven.

Jesus told the Jewish leaders of his day that they were children of the devil....that doesn't sound like God's People as you say. I don't really think you understand what it means to be born-again...what does born-again mean to you?

Jesus was speaking to Pharisees who argued with him, not every single Jew. Paul himself realizes the Jews' position. Read Romans 9-11 again.

I understand what "born again" means.

Regards

Thank you. Now the scripture you gave me says nothing about "born-again" children of God. What you fail to understand is the scripture that you cited is refering to people who have heard of or have been exposed to the gospel not necessarily people who have been born-again. Now i ask you again francis show me scripture that says that true "born-again" children of God will NOT enter the Kingdom. Can you do that? What we seem to be debating is the "age old" debate of whether or not one can lose their salvation. Sure both sides can pick and choose verses to support their stance but when scripture is properly studied within context and logic is applied your side loses francis. You really are confused about this Jewish "thing" you keep refering to. You are comparing apples and oranges.lol Do you not understand that there is a difference between the Old Covevant and the New Covenant? The Old Covenant is over with...let it go....that is why Jesus came. Yes francis the Pharisees were the Jewish leaders that i was refering to...very good. Well...what does being born-again mean to you if you understand it as you claim?

 

[Danus]

It doesn't sound like you have a handle on what the "doubters on whether they are saved" are actually stating. The question is not over whether one HAS been saved, the question is whether that salvation of the past translates into automatic and irrevocable heaven. Salvation in Scriptures refers to not only the past, but to the present and the future. Confusing the past with the future leads to problems. Confusing the "what ought to be" with the "what is" also leads to problems. The Bible states that judgment is based upon good deeds done by someone - in Christ - for the Christian. Eschatological salvation is not about one moment in time years and years ago - it is about believing in God NOW and continuing in it. Persevering in it. CHRIST is not judged. The believer/unbeliever is judged. It does not follow that once you are saved, you will REMAIN faithful, Christ HIMSELF has stated this over and over again. Regards

????? So you are saying that once a person is saved they may or may not be saved in the future. That's my handle on what you are saying, so do I have a handle on the doubters thought? Those that doubt. That correct?

What I am saying is that those with faith in Christ are saved, and those who remain in the faith are saved. I'm clear to what I'm saying to you?

 

[francisdesales]

FOUL!, the "born again Christian"....does not.....turn away from Christ back to a life lost in sin and fall out of God's grace.

Foul??? What the heck?

Simply read 2 Peter 2:20-22 and you will find a "born again" Christian falling away and in a situation that would be WORSE than if he HAD NEVER been born again...

How much does one fall to be worse off than NEVER knowing Christ???

This is a point brought up over and over again, yet it get's ignored. You are ignoring the concept and creating an idea, or definition of "born again" based on your theology and not the protestant theology.

Protestant theology??? I would venture to say that there is hardly such a thing that is monolithic in Protestantism, as everyone has a different interpretation (which holds ultimate authority) on reading the Bible. I have spoken to such who do not think Jesus was God. Or died for our sins. Certainly, they would define "born again" differently. Some speak of being born in water. You must be dunked, not sprinkled. Others call baptism as ritual with little force or meaning.

I know a number of Protestants who hold a nearly identical view with my point of view regarding OSAS - and I am not Protestant.

As such, you will have to take that into account when you speak about "Protestant theology", since there are very few things agreeable to everyone that considers themselves as such.

I'm not going to claim to be an expert on purgatory because I don't believe in it. You won't here me even making a definition of it because for me it's a completely made up idea. I would assume you'd think the same way about the term "BORN AGAIN", so why are you speaking on something you don't even believe?

"Being born again" is not a Protestant monopoly. I am born again and had never considered myself Protestant.

According to Paul in several places. He even lists specific sins for us in Romans, Galatians, Ephesians and 1 Corinthians. That's just for starters. Our actions in life are the basis of God's judgment of all men.

The emphasis on one's ability to enter heaven in what your saying here above, is based on one ability to not sin, or commit specific sins.

That is not what I am saying. A person who commits those sins and REMAINS in them is in danger of being judged wicked.

That's just incorrect in and of itself, and there lies the problem. You are leaving God out. Your are leaving the sovereignty of God out in saying that and placing the full culpability on man kind. You simply can not do that alone and be biblical.

Is God judged or is man judged upon the Day of the Lord???

In Matthew 25, is God called to task because the goats did not feed or water or give succor???

God allows men to falter, it is called free will. Just because God allows this does not mean that God is not sovereign. Do you have kids??? If they do badly in math, do you go in to their classroom and take the test for them???

The bible teaches that man is sinful.

AND the same bible teaches that man can do good, with God's help and grace.

Yes there is the Christian life which is a life of repentance and turning from sin, but the emphasis of that, is GOD not man. That's where ones faith comes in. You either have faith in faith, in ones ability to do something correctly, or you have faith in Christ who have the power to change you to His will.

God grants grace to ALL men, the good and the evil. What separates the wheat from the chaff is the response individuals make to God's grace. The parable of the sower is a good example of this. WHICH provides the fruit??? The seed is absolutely necessary, or there would no fruit in any case. But without the soil? Let's not forget that God grants graces SO THAT we may fulfill our purpose - which is to do good works (Eph 2:10)

Often when I have these conversations with my RCC friends, we seem to end on that same note in some round abut way, but you've left it completely out.

First, we don't call ourselves "RCC", that is a derisive term from hundreds of years ago. We are Catholic.
Secondly, I have hardly spoken with you on this, how can you judge me already??? Of course God is sovereign. That is a given. What is your point?

How about you describe what you think born again is. You said the former born again. No where did Paul say those who are born again then falling back.

Paul does not even use the term "born again", so stop asking me such trick questions... It is RARELY used in the entire bible. Even Jesus uses "born from above", which is a correction from Nicodemus' "born again" idea.

You assume he is meaning those people "Born Again" because of verses like Hebrews 6: 1-12 when he describes those who are enlightened, which only means Having or showing a rational, modern, and well-informed outlook. That is not BORN AGAIN.

Enlightened does not mean simply a rational outlook!!! It is at the spiritual, mystical level that leads one to have faith working in love.
James said that even the devil has "simple rational outlook" of God. He knows God exists. Being enlightened about Jesus dying on the cross like out of a history book is CERTAINLY NOT what Hebrews is talking about.

Furthermore, 2 Peter 2 clearly describes someone YOU would consider "born again", until you saw him fall away. THEN, you retract that title for him. THAT is the major problem with the whole idea of the OP. What is the point of claiming "ALL born again Christians go to heaven"...,

...and then when someone falters and returns to a life of sin, the title "born again" is removed.

"OOPS, you never were born again... Remember when we said you would make it to heaven??? Well, that was ONLY if you were born again, and you aren't..."

How convenient... THAT'S "secure"...?

I prefer to desperately beg the Lord Jesus Christ to grant me mercy and grace so that I can continue in my faith and let HIM decide/judge whether I will enter heaven. You speak of God's sovereignty, but you will not allow Him to judge??? Born agains are not judged, apparently.

Sorry if I may appear sarcastic, but I have heard this argument ad nauseum, and I am no closer to believing that this is anything more than a big scam to make people feel good about themselves, check off the "yep, going to heaven" box, and move on with their lives...

The way to life is narrow. It is difficult. OSAS strikes me as the "wide" path.

Regards

 

[Danus]

2 Peter 2 clearly describes someone YOU would consider "born again", until you saw him fall away. THEN, you retract that title for him. THAT is the major problem with the whole idea of the OP. What is the point of claiming "ALL born again Christians go to heaven", and then when someone falters, the title "born again" is removed. OOPS, you never were born again... Remember when we said you would make it to heaven??? Well, that was ONLY if you were born again, and you aren't... How convenient... How "secure"... I prefer to desperately beg the Lord Jesus Christ to grant me mercy and grace so that I can continue in my faith and let HIM decide/judge whether I will enter heaven. You speak of God's sovereignty, but you will not allow Him to judge??? Born agains are not judged, apparently. Sorry if I may appear sarcastic, but I have heard this argument ad nauseum, and I am no closer to believing that this is anything more than a big scam to make people feel good about themselves, check off the "yep, going to heaven" box, and move on with their lives... Regards

Well lets see if 2 Peter 2 clearly describes someone born again.

2 Peter 2

New International Version (NIV)

False Teachers and Their Destruction

2 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell,[a] putting them in chains of darkness[b] to be held for judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment. 10 This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the flesh[c] and despise authority.
Bold and arrogant, they are not afraid to heap abuse on celestial beings; 11 yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not heap abuse on such beings when bringing judgment on them from[d] the Lord. 12 But these people blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like unreasoning animals, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like animals they too will perish.
13 They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.[e] 14 With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed—an accursed brood! 15 They have left the straight way and wandered off to follow the way of Balaam son of Bezer,[f] who loved the wages of wickedness. 16 But he was rebuked for his wrongdoing by a donkey—an animal without speech—who spoke with a human voice and restrained the prophet’s madness.
17 These people are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18 For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of the flesh, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for “people are slaves to whatever has mastered them.†20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,â€[g] and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.â€

Nope, I see nothing about the born again in there. Rather a DOG returns to it's vomit, a pig to the mud. People are slaves to whatever masters them....these would not be the born again, since God is their mater. 2 Peter describes the unsaved continuing not to be saved and being rightly judged for it.

 

[francisdesales]

It doesn't sound like you have a handle on what the "doubters on whether they are saved" are actually stating. The question is not over whether one HAS been saved, the question is whether that salvation of the past translates into automatic and irrevocable heaven. Salvation in Scriptures refers to not only the past, but to the present and the future. Confusing the past with the future leads to problems. Confusing the "what ought to be" with the "what is" also leads to problems. The Bible states that judgment is based upon good deeds done by someone - in Christ - for the Christian. Eschatological salvation is not about one moment in time years and years ago - it is about believing in God NOW and continuing in it. Persevering in it. CHRIST is not judged. The believer/unbeliever is judged. It does not follow that once you are saved, you will REMAIN faithful, Christ HIMSELF has stated this over and over again. Regards

????? So you are saying that once a person is saved they may or may not be saved in the future. That's my handle on what you are saying, so do I have a handle on the doubters thought? Those that doubt. That correct?

What I am saying is that those with faith in Christ are saved, and those who remain in the faith are saved. I'm clear to what I'm saying to you?

Who here is doubting there future salvation???

The point is that it is not certain. We have moral certainty, not absolute certainty. As long as Christ abides in me, I will go to heaven. I (and the supposed doubters, I imagine) are merely saying that it is not DONE yet. The battle continues, but we remain confident that God will aid us when we call to Him.