Will all born-again Christians make it to heaven?

[gr8grace]

And so those who do not persevere until the end, as Jesus states, will be lost.
The Bible makes this crystal-clear in virtually every book of the NT.

Is it against the rules to put someone on the spot?
I'll risk it ...

What percentage of those born from above would you guess the Holy Spirit
is successful in ... leading to persevere to the end unto salvation?

I couldn't hazard a guess - but Jesus said that the road is narrow (forget about the easy one-moment 'I believe' road...) to heaven and the road to perdition is wide - easy. The parable of the sower indicates 4 different paths, and only one seems to lead to fruit leading to heaven, so I would say less than half?

But perhaps at the end, God will let everyone into heaven except for a few. Who can say on such matters?

Regards

I know we clash francis, But I did get a chuckle out of this. (forget about the easy one-moment 'I believe' road...)...the EXACT hard and very narrow road Jesus was describing.

It is so hard and so very narrow that most cannot and will not believe it.

Would it not be one of the hardest and most narrow things which you have ever done, to believe in faith alone, in Christ alone?

 

[Grappler]

I err?

The "Jews" are not one of the tribes of Israel.

Election is one of the mainstays of Judaism. Do you deny that?



The many numerous parts of the Bible where election does not guarantee eschatological salvation at the individual level. Certainly, God elects or predestines, but eschatological judgment is not based upon that status, but whether one actually obeyed God's law, at whatever level it was known to them. The Jew did not get special priveleges to avoid that, and neither does the Gentile Christian. This is one of the most prevalent themes in the entire Bible, OT AND NT. I could literally cite a passage from every book of the NT that states this, with the possible exception of Philemon.

Yes you err. And you have decided to remain ignorant of scripture and history claiming that the Jews are not one of the twelve tribes of Israel. If you would like to learn something look up the origin of the word jew. It is derived from the word Judea. Judea is derived from the word Judah who is one of the twelve tribes of Israel. Check it out sometime it is interesting. I don't know enough about the false religion of Judaism to care about whether or not election is a mainstay.

Sorry, "Jew" is not one of the sons of Jacob.

The term "Jew" stems from the name of the Southern Kingdom, and once the Northern kingdom, Israel, fell, it was applied to anyone who worshiped per Judaism, since the Southern Kingdom was all that was left of the Promised Land occupied by God's People.

An example is in Esther 2:5-6, where we find that the name "Jew" is given to a man from the tribe of Benjamin: "There was a man a Yehudi (Judean/Jewish man) in Shushan the capital, whose name was Mordecai the son of Jair the son of Shimei the son of Kish, a Benjamite.

Of course, I see this as nit-picking and I am not going to say another word about it.

The fact remains that the people who trace their ancestry to Jacob (good enough???), whom are callled "Jews" in the bible without ignoring the scattered tribes of Israel, were well aware of their election to the People of God. NOTHING that they did earned this election. The rite of circumcision was the sign of the covenant as part of His people.

The point is that THIS election did not guarantee them eschatological salvation - as Paul also states regarding OUR predestination/election. Nor does OUR being grafted ONTO that SAME TREE (false religion? Yea, you don't know much about it...) mean we will be judged any differently or with favoritism. Those who do not do the will of the Father, whether gentile or jew, shall not enter the Kingdom.

The New Covenant opened the POTENTIAL of heaven to ALL men, not just Jewish people. God will still judge people based upon what they did in this world. God is not changing what pleases Him. Unless you think the God of the Bible is like Allah, who changes right and wrong at his whim.

And so those who do not persevere until the end, as Jesus states, will be lost. The Bible makes this crystal-clear in virtually every book of the NT. Hang your hat on one verse, if you so choose, and ignore the rest of the Bible at your own peril.

Regards

Why do you apologize?lol I never said "Jew" was one of the sons of Jacob. As i said before the term "Jew" refers to people who lived in Judea....a region named after one of the sons of Jacob. Why you would call discussing something historical and interesting...'nit-picking' is beyond me...but whatever. You seem to be confused about the election. The elect are those whom God chose before the foundation of the world to become His sons...you can see this for instance in Ephesians chapter 1. This election goes beyond "Jew" or Gentile. As for the topic of this thread the answer is ofcourse a born-again Christian will indeed make it to the "heaven" though i prefer the term Kingdom of God. If a born-again child of God didn't make it to "heaven" then we above all men are most miserable as Paul said.

 

[Grappler]

God did NOT choose the Jews as a people.
Are you not aware that Jews are just one of the twelve tribes of Israel?

Don't know if you have any use for DNA, but ...
http://www.texemarrs.com/042013/jews_not_descendants_of_abraham.htm

Do you know what happens when you assume Zain?? You assume that i don't know the difference between Ashkenazi Jews and "Jews" who are descendants of the tribe of Judeah. The term "Jew" can be traced back to Jude, one of the sons of Israel. Now as for your comment about DNA. Yes Zain I understand, unlike most people Christian or not, that most "Jews" today are NOT genetically related to Abraham. They are descendants of the Khazars a nation of Gentiles descended from Japheth who adopted Judaism around 700 AD. Yes i like Texe Marrs also.

 

[francisdesales]

I know we clash francis, But I did get a chuckle out of this. (forget about the easy one-moment 'I believe' road...)...the EXACT hard and very narrow road Jesus was describing.

It is so hard and so very narrow that most cannot and will not believe it.

gr8grace,

I seriously doubt you even have read the passage in question. Otherwise, you wouldn't make such ridiculous comments. Nowhere does Jesus talk about having faith in Him within Matthew 7. Stop twisting Scriptures.

Here is the context. It is CLEARLY about doing things. Not about having "faith alone".


Therefore, all things whatsoever ye desire that men should do unto you, so also shall ye do unto them, for this is the law and the prophets. Enter ye in at the narrow gate, for the way that leads to destruction is wide and spacious, and those who follow it are many; because narrow [is] the gate, and confined [is] the way which leads unto life, and there are few that find it. Keep yourselves also from the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree brings forth good fruit, but a corrupt tree brings forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that does not bring forth good fruit is hewn down and cast into the fire. So that by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in the heavens Matt 7:12-21

What sort of person is going to tell me that this "narrow road" is about having faith in Christ alone??? :gah

 

[francisdesales]

Why do you apologize?lol I never said "Jew" was one of the sons of Jacob.

You are now being argumentative. Here is what you said:

God did NOT choose the Jews as a people. Are you not aware that Jews are just one of the twelve tribes of Israel?

The 12 tribes of Israel are named after the 12 sons of Jacob/Israel... Thus, apparently, "Jew - one of the 12 tribes of Israel" was one of the children of Israel/Jacob

Just drop it. You are done, you are just wrong. Move on

 

[Grappler]

Why do you apologize?lol I never said "Jew" was one of the sons of Jacob.

You are now being argumentative. Here is what you said:

God did NOT choose the Jews as a people. Are you not aware that Jews are just one of the twelve tribes of Israel?

The 12 tribes of Israel are named after the 12 sons of Jacob/Israel... Thus, apparently, "Jew - one of the 12 tribes of Israel" was one of the children of Israel/Jacob

Just drop it. You are done, you are just wrong. Move on

I don't really understand your point? Are you not aware that the term "Jew" has it's origins in one of the sons of Israel? His name was Judah. Now i am done.

 

[Grappler]

I know we clash francis, But I did get a chuckle out of this. (forget about the easy one-moment 'I believe' road...)...the EXACT hard and very narrow road Jesus was describing.

It is so hard and so very narrow that most cannot and will not believe it.

Grappler,

I seriously doubt you even have read the passage in question. Otherwise, you wouldn't make such ridiculous comments. Nowhere does Jesus talk about having faith in Him within Matthew 7. Stop twisting Scriptures.

Here is the context. It is CLEARLY about doing things. Not about having "faith alone".


Therefore, all things whatsoever ye desire that men should do unto you, so also shall ye do unto them, for this is the law and the prophets. Enter ye in at the narrow gate, for the way that leads to destruction is wide and spacious, and those who follow it are many; because narrow [is] the gate, and confined [is] the way which leads unto life, and there are few that find it. Keep yourselves also from the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree brings forth good fruit, but a corrupt tree brings forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that does not bring forth good fruit is hewn down and cast into the fire. So that by their fruits ye shall know them. Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in the heavens Matt 7:12-21

What sort of person is going to tell me that this "narrow road" is about having faith in Christ alone??? :gah

You err again francis....must be a common thing for you. You gave Grappler credit for something that gr8grace posted.

 

[francisdesales]

'nit-picking' is beyond me...but whatever.

Yea, whatever...[/quote]

You seem to be confused about the election.

You yourself said you didn't know much about the Jews after i told you that Judaism - as related by Paul - had a strong sense of election as a nation. It is difficult to miss that in Scriptures, even if you thought Judaism was a "false religion", according to you...

The point about election is that the same set of circumstances surround Christians as they did the Jews that Paul speaks of in Romans 9-11. There is no guarantee for the Jew - God is impartial. Having the Law didn't necessarily lead to the Jews fulfilling it. The same is the case for Christians. Having the Holy Spirit doesn't necessarily mean we fulfill the Law of Christ. And as PAUL HIMSELF states, the Gentile branches CAN be broken off the cultivated olive tree. So beware, Paul states.

So many times, we are told to beware. To persevere. But somehow, it's all pie in the sky and the easy road to heaven for your theology. I just don't see it in the Scriptures. I see eschatological judgment based upon what we do. Did i faithfully live up to the Spirit's promptings within me? Or did I return to a life of sin?

The elect are those whom God chose before the foundation of the world to become His sons...you can see this for instance in Ephesians chapter 1.

I agree. But election is at the community level. Furthermore, it is election INTO that community here on earth. It is not election into heaven.

This election goes beyond "Jew" or Gentile.

Of course, I didn't say otherwise. I am bringing up the Jews as an example of how being God's People does not guarantee you heaven.

As for the topic of this thread the answer is of course a born-again Christian will indeed make it to the "heaven" though i prefer the term Kingdom of God.

You crack me up with your non-biblical assertions.

If a born-again child of God didn't make it to "heaven" then we above all men are most miserable as Paul said.

that's not what Paul said to the Corinthians there. He said if there was no resurrection of the dead, then your faith would be in vain. Nothing about born again people getting a guarantee to heaven no matter what they did in life.

 

[francisdesales]

You err again francis....must be a common thing for you. You gave Grappler credit for something that gr8grace posted.

Excuse my error. I didn't notice the name change.

 

[francisdesales]

Why do you apologize?lol I never said "Jew" was one of the sons of Jacob.

You are now being argumentative. Here is what you said:

God did NOT choose the Jews as a people. Are you not aware that Jews are just one of the twelve tribes of Israel?

The 12 tribes of Israel are named after the 12 sons of Jacob/Israel... Thus, apparently, "Jew - one of the 12 tribes of Israel" was one of the children of Israel/Jacob

Just drop it. You are done, you are just wrong. Move on

I don't really understand your point? Are you not aware that the term "Jew" has it's origins in one of the sons of Israel? His name was Judah. Now i am done.

You stated what i cited above. The term "Jew" was used to describe NON-JUDEAN people, as well.

 

[Grappler]

Why do you apologize?lol I never said "Jew" was one of the sons of Jacob.

You are now being argumentative. Here is what you said:

God did NOT choose the Jews as a people. Are you not aware that Jews are just one of the twelve tribes of Israel?

The 12 tribes of Israel are named after the 12 sons of Jacob/Israel... Thus, apparently, "Jew - one of the 12 tribes of Israel" was one of the children of Israel/Jacob

Just drop it. You are done, you are just wrong. Move on

I don't really understand your point? Are you not aware that the term "Jew" has it's origins in one of the sons of Israel? His name was Judah. Now i am done.

You stated what i cited above. The term "Jew" was used to describe NON-JUDEAN people, as well.

I guess i gave you a little too much credit in understanding the term "Jew" by not explaining in detail what a "Jew" is.

 

[Grappler]

Yea, whatever...

You yourself said you didn't know much about the Jews after i told you that Judaism - as related by Paul - had a strong sense of election as a nation. It is difficult to miss that in Scriptures, even if you thought Judaism was a "false religion", according to you...

The point about election is that the same set of circumstances surround Christians as they did the Jews that Paul speaks of in Romans 9-11. There is no guarantee for the Jew - God is impartial. Having the Law didn't necessarily lead to the Jews fulfilling it. The same is the case for Christians. Having the Holy Spirit doesn't necessarily mean we fulfill the Law of Christ. And as PAUL HIMSELF states, the Gentile branches CAN be broken off the cultivated olive tree. So beware, Paul states.

So many times, we are told to beware. To persevere. But somehow, it's all pie in the sky and the easy road to heaven for your theology. I just don't see it in the Scriptures. I see eschatological judgment based upon what we do. Did i faithfully live up to the Spirit's promptings within me? Or did I return to a life of sin?

The elect are those whom God chose before the foundation of the world to become His sons...you can see this for instance in Ephesians chapter 1.

I agree. But election is at the community level. Furthermore, it is election INTO that community here on earth. It is not election into heaven.

This election goes beyond "Jew" or Gentile.

Of course, I didn't say otherwise. I am bringing up the Jews as an example of how being God's People does not guarantee you heaven.

As for the topic of this thread the answer is of course a born-again Christian will indeed make it to the "heaven" though i prefer the term Kingdom of God.

You crack me up with your non-biblical assertions.

If a born-again child of God didn't make it to "heaven" then we above all men are most miserable as Paul said.

What you are failing to see is that before the foundation of the world God elected to whom he will make his people....regardless of whether a person is a physical descendant of Abraham or not. You don't seem to understand that God used Abraham to not only bless his own descendents but the nations of the Earth as well. This blessing was Jesus...the New Covenant. Now not all of Abraham's descendents are of the elect just as not all Gentiles are of the elect. You belittle the sacrifice that Jesus made in making the claim that in addition to putting our faith in Jesus we must also add our own works in order to maintain our salvation. You defy logic when you make the claim that a born-again Christian may indeed become un-born and not enter into "heaven". I don't even know what your trying to teach. What is your point? It seems you are just interested in arguement. My question for you is how does a born-again Christian NOT inherit the promises of Abraham? Can you answer that for me?

 

[francisdesales]

You yourself said you didn't know much about the Jews after i told you that Judaism - as related by Paul - had a strong sense of election as a nation. It is difficult to miss that in Scriptures, even if you thought Judaism was a "false religion", according to you...

The point about election is that the same set of circumstances surround Christians as they did the Jews that Paul speaks of in Romans 9-11. There is no guarantee for the Jew - God is impartial. Having the Law didn't necessarily lead to the Jews fulfilling it. The same is the case for Christians. Having the Holy Spirit doesn't necessarily mean we fulfill the Law of Christ. And as PAUL HIMSELF states, the Gentile branches CAN be broken off the cultivated olive tree. So beware, Paul states.

So many times, we are told to beware. To persevere. But somehow, it's all pie in the sky and the easy road to heaven for your theology. I just don't see it in the Scriptures. I see eschatological judgment based upon what we do. Did i faithfully live up to the Spirit's promptings within me? Or did I return to a life of sin?



I agree. But election is at the community level. Furthermore, it is election INTO that community here on earth. It is not election into heaven.



Of course, I didn't say otherwise. I am bringing up the Jews as an example of how being God's People does not guarantee you heaven.

As for the topic of this thread the answer is of course a born-again Christian will indeed make it to the "heaven" though i prefer the term Kingdom of God.

You crack me up with your non-biblical assertions.

If a born-again child of God didn't make it to "heaven" then we above all men are most miserable as Paul said.

What you are failing to see is that before the foundation of the world God elected to whom he will make his people....regardless of whether a person is a physical descendant of Abraham or not. You don't seem to understand that God used Abraham to not only bless his own descendents but the nations of the Earth as well. This blessing was Jesus...the New Covenant. Now not all of Abraham's descendents are of the elect just as not all Gentiles are of the elect. You belittle the sacrifice that Jesus made in making the claim that in addition to putting our faith in Jesus we must also add our own works in order to maintain our salvation. You defy logic when you make the claim that a born-again Christian may indeed become un-born and not enter into "heaven". I don't even know what your trying to teach. What is your point? It seems you are just interested in arguement. My question for you is how does a born-again Christian NOT inherit the promises of Abraham? Can you answer that for me?

Can you edit this most recent response of yours to properly state who says what?

Thanks

 

[francisdesales]

I don't really understand your point? Are you not aware that the term "Jew" has it's origins in one of the sons of Israel? His name was Judah. Now i am done.

You stated what i cited above. The term "Jew" was used to describe NON-JUDEAN people, as well.

I guess i gave you a little too much credit in understanding the term "Jew" by not explaining in detail what a "Jew" is.

I guess you shouldn't have made the statement in blue above in #177...

 

[John Zain]

Would it not be one of the hardest and most narrow things which you have ever done,
to believe in faith alone, in Christ alone?

You think simply believing in faith alone, in Christ alone, will sanctify you?
Nothing else involved at all? ... This is pathetic OSAS stuff.

Jesus commanded you to have no unforgiveness.
Jesus commanded you to be holy.
Jesus commanded you to be perfect.
And many etc.

Wake Up & Good Luck!

 

[reba]

Mat_5:37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.

 

[John Zain]

God did NOT choose the Jews as a people.
Are you not aware that Jews are just one of the twelve tribes of Israel?

Don't know if you have any use for DNA, but ...
http://www.texemarrs.com/042013/jews_not_descendants_of_abraham.htm

Do you know what happens when you assume Zain?? You assume that i don't know the difference between Ashkenazi Jews and "Jews" who are descendants of the tribe of Judeah. The term "Jew" can be traced back to Jude, one of the sons of Israel. Now as for your comment about DNA. Yes Zain I understand, unlike most people Christian or not, that most "Jews" today are NOT genetically related to Abraham. They are descendants of the Khazars a nation of Gentiles descended from Japheth who adopted Judaism around 700 AD. Yes i like Texe Marrs also.

I'm no fan of Texe Marrs.
But, DNA shows that the Jews in Israel were NOT descended from the 12 tribes.
Ergo, they have NO biblical claim on their land.
However, why did the Lord miraculously make them victorious in their recent wars?
You don't have the answer.
Anywho ... let's return to the OP.

 

[John Zain]

You (Sales) belittle the sacrifice that Jesus made in making the claim that in addition to
putting our faith in Jesus we must also add our own works in order to maintain our salvation.

Throughout the entire Bible ...

God never has considered man CO-OPERATING with Him as being works,
and ...
God never has considered man being OBEDIENT to Him as being works.

In the NT, it says that such things are JUST our NORMAL DUTY.

 

[Grappler]

You yourself said you didn't know much about the Jews after i told you that Judaism - as related by Paul - had a strong sense of election as a nation. It is difficult to miss that in Scriptures, even if you thought Judaism was a "false religion", according to you...

The point about election is that the same set of circumstances surround Christians as they did the Jews that Paul speaks of in Romans 9-11. There is no guarantee for the Jew - God is impartial. Having the Law didn't necessarily lead to the Jews fulfilling it. The same is the case for Christians. Having the Holy Spirit doesn't necessarily mean we fulfill the Law of Christ. And as PAUL HIMSELF states, the Gentile branches CAN be broken off the cultivated olive tree. So beware, Paul states.

So many times, we are told to beware. To persevere. But somehow, it's all pie in the sky and the easy road to heaven for your theology. I just don't see it in the Scriptures. I see eschatological judgment based upon what we do. Did i faithfully live up to the Spirit's promptings within me? Or did I return to a life of sin?



I agree. But election is at the community level. Furthermore, it is election INTO that community here on earth. It is not election into heaven.



Of course, I didn't say otherwise. I am bringing up the Jews as an example of how being God's People does not guarantee you heaven.

As for the topic of this thread the answer is of course a born-again Christian will indeed make it to the "heaven" though i prefer the term Kingdom of God.

You crack me up with your non-biblical assertions.

If a born-again child of God didn't make it to "heaven" then we above all men are most miserable as Paul said.

What you are failing to see is that before the foundation of the world God elected to whom he will make his people....regardless of whether a person is a physical descendant of Abraham or not. You don't seem to understand that God used Abraham to not only bless his own descendents but the nations of the Earth as well. This blessing was Jesus...the New Covenant. Now not all of Abraham's descendents are of the elect just as not all Gentiles are of the elect. You belittle the sacrifice that Jesus made in making the claim that in addition to putting our faith in Jesus we must also add our own works in order to maintain our salvation. You defy logic when you make the claim that a born-again Christian may indeed become un-born and not enter into "heaven". I don't even know what your trying to teach. What is your point? It seems you are just interested in arguement. My question for you is how does a born-again Christian NOT inherit the promises of Abraham? Can you answer that for me?

Can you edit this most recent response of yours to properly state who says what?

Thanks

How does a born-again Christian NOT make it to heaven?

 

[Grappler]

I don't really understand your point? Are you not aware that the term "Jew" has it's origins in one of the sons of Israel? His name was Judah. Now i am done.

You stated what i cited above. The term "Jew" was used to describe NON-JUDEAN people, as well.

I guess i gave you a little too much credit in understanding the term "Jew" by not explaining in detail what a "Jew" is.

I guess you shouldn't have made the statement in blue above in #177...

How does a born-again Christian NOT make it to heaven?