Works for Salvation: Humility

[Corinth77777]

Romans 16:26
But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

And?

 

[Corinth77777]

I don't know what this means... What does the "things unseen are eternal" stuff have to do with your begging to differ with my analogy? And anyway, you've not actually interacted with what I wrote but simply disagreed with it in an entirely dismissive way. This isn't the conduct of a thoughtful

Sorry, Forgive me don't choke me..smile.
I may have rushed reading. Ill read it again.

person.



What difference does any of this make to what I wrote? As far as I can tell, nothing you put forward here rebuts or denies anything that I wrote in my last post.

As my last post explained, there are no co-saviors with Christ. We do not, and cannot, save ourselves. When we come to Christ for salvation, we come as those profoundly weak, stained by sin, and bound under the power of the World, the Flesh and the devil.

Romans 5:6-9
6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die.
8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

Titus 3:3-6
3 For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another.
4 But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared,
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,

Colossians 1:13-14
13 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,
14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Ephesians 2:1-5
1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

And so on. Our obedience to God's command to be saved doesn't save us. Only Christ, through his redemptive work on the cross, saves us. We don't - and cannot - do anything to contribute to Christ's Atonement. There is only one Savior.

Ephesians 2:8
Saved from being dead in trespasses and sin when we believed.
No one earns anything through belief. Ask my son if He believes mentally to work or does He work physically.

 

[Tenchi]

Christ is the life Jn 14:6

Born again is baptismal regeneration

Effects of faith & baptism!

We are baptized into Christ by the Holy Spirit, not by water baptism which is merely symbolic of what the Holy Spirit does in spiritually regenerating the person "dead in trespasses and sins."

Romans 8:9-11
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
10 If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Mark 1:7-8
7 And he was preaching, and saying, "After me One is coming who is mightier than I, and I am not fit to stoop down and untie the thong of His sandals.
8 "I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."

Acts 1:4-5
4 Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, "Which," He said, "you heard of from Me;
5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now."

Acts 2:1-4
1 When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place.
2 And suddenly there came from heaven a noise like a violent rushing wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared to them tongues as of fire distributing themselves, and they rested on each one of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.

1 Corinthians 6:19-20
19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?
20 For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body.

Were the first born-again believers, the first people permanently indwelt by the Holy Spirit and made spiritually alive by him, baptized in water in order to receive the Holy Spirit? No. The "baptism of the Spirit" was an entirely spiritual event, requiring no sprinkling or dunking in water.

Ez 36:25-27 washed in baptism, with a new heart and the Spirit

In context:

Ezekiel 36:23-28
23 "I will vindicate the holiness of My great name which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD," declares the Lord GOD, "when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight.
24 "For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land.
25 "Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.
26 "Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
27 "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.
28 "You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God.

God, through the prophet Ezekiel, is speaking to the Israelite people, not to New Testament Christians, saying that He will make clean His Chosen People, not by water-baptism, but by giving them a new heart and spirit, by putting within them His Spirit who will cause them to walk in all of His statutes. The "sprinkling of clean water" is figurative of the giving of the Holy Spirit; it is not a literal sprinkling of water by which the Jews would be made clean. The physical nature of water-baptism cannot, being entirely a physical thing, attain a spiritual effect. And so, in the quotation above, God spoke, not of the spiritually-cleansing power of water, but of the spiritually-cleansing power of His Spirit.

Matt 28:19 faith & baptism

Matthew 28:16-20
16 But the eleven disciples proceeded to Galilee, to the mountain which Jesus had designated.
17 When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful.
18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,
20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

Nothing in this passage indicates a spiritually-regenerating effect derived from water-baptism. Baptism is simply symbolic of the Spirit baptizing repentant, believing sinners into Jesus Christ. And it connects saving belief to immediate, concrete, corresponding action.

Jn 3:5 born again in baptism

In context:

John 3:5-7
5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 "Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'

Did Jesus say in this passage anything about being "born again in water-baptism"? No. Nothing.

Instead, Jesus pointed out two kinds of birth: "born of flesh" and "born of the Spirit." "Born of flesh" corresponds to "born of water" which is, obviously, the placental "water" accompanying physical birth, and "born of the Spirit" which corresponds to the spiritual "birth" the Holy Spirit effects when he comes to dwell within a person. Jesus, then, is careful in verse 6 not to leave Nicodemus with the impression that water and the Spirit are the means to the "second birth," but distinguishes "born of water" from "born of the Spirit."

Mk 16:16 faith & baptist

Mark 16:15-16
15 And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.
16 "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

What is the emphasis upon in these verses concerning salvation? Baptism or belief? Clearly, it is belief that is the crucial thing, not baptism. As Jesus said, belief precedes baptism, giving rise to it, and it is the absence of belief that condemns, not the absence of baptism. This is not, then, a passage that well-supports a "baptism saves" doctrine. Far from it, actually.

Acts 2:38 repentance & baptism

Acts 2:37-41
37 Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Brethren, what shall we do?"
38 Peter said to them, "Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 "For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."
40 And with many other words he solemnly testified and kept on exhorting them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation!"
41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.

Was it baptism that Peter indicated was the crucial means of obtaining God's forgiveness of sins? No. Before baptism, Peter spoke of repentance. It was a change of mind (repentance), of belief, about Christ and his atoning work at Calvary, trusting in the truth about him, that was the first and vital feature of salvation, not baptism. Being dunked in water was merely a manifestation of a changed mind concerning the Gospel, symbolic of the "gift of the Holy Spirit" coming to live within those who had believed the Gospel and trusted in Christ as their Savior, baptizing them spiritually into him. Here, again, your baptismal regeneration proof-text fails.

The same holds true for all of the other proof-texts you've offered for the false doctrine of salvation through water baptism. I'm not going to exegete all of them, however, since it should be clear by this point how illegitimately you're handling Scripture in connection with water baptism.

 

[Tenchi]

Ephesians 2:8
Saved from being dead in trespasses and sin when we believed.
No one earns anything through belief. Ask my son if He believes mentally to work or does He work physically.

Right. Inasmuch as salvation is an undeserved gift, there is no work required to obtain it. Simply receiving it, by faith, is sufficient.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Titus 3:5
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

2 Timothy 1:9
9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

 

[GodsGrace]

The first one Is speaking of immersing them in reality. Through teaching them to do all that He commanded.

Recall this passage:

Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Above you're referring to Matthew 28:19
I don't really like to wonder if maybe Jesus meant something else.
You said He means immersing us into reality...
Jesus specifically said to be baptized.
I don't really fully understand why, but I think we have to do what He said.
Preaching was a reality, teaching also, exorcising demons also,
so I have to think that baptism was also a reality, maybe not the type you mean, not sure.
The reality would be of dying and coming back to life in Jesus.
I believe it's more than a symbol or a representation of something going on inside,
but, as I've said many times, I don't really understand baptism, but I know it must be done.

The second one, one may take into account that this was customary
to the culture of the day. So example if a school teacher gives a sticker to those students who behaved. And she says those who behaved and got stickers may go to recess first, but those who didnt behave will go late. Plus the latter part never says those who are not baptized in water are not saved but those who did not believe.

The second verse was Mark 16:16
If one has believed and been baptized, he will be saved.
If one has not believed, he is lost.

OK, so I don't think it's like a sticker.
To me it's something that has to be really happening.

And as to Mark, yes, those who do not believe are lost, no sense in getting baptized since that ALONE
till not save anyone, but following Jesus' teachings as in Matthew 28:19.
(and baptism is one of His teachings).

Now when we symbolically get baptized we are making a committment to follow, And my reason would be I know He is the way to meaningful life and of abundance so I am committing myself under His rule and giving up my life by dying to the flesh.

Agreed 100% except I'm not sure what you mean by "symbolically baptized".

I believe that if you truly believe that at the time of baptism unless God had already forgiven your sin, then God will show up. And some may even speak in tongues..For my spouse who has never been baptized when He made a decision to follow the scriptures open up to Him.

Do you mean that a non-believer will become a believer at baptism?
This I cannot agree to. First belief, then baptism.
Speaking in tongues could happen at baptism, or it could happen later on with the laying on of hands,
or even through nothing, but the person just wants this and it happens.

I also see water Baptism as a sign to the world that shows what is taking place on the inside.

You said ALSO, so I can agree.
Baptism is ALSO a sign to the world.

And it's away we enter community relations with Jesus as the head. LIKE THE BOY SCOUT PLEDGE.

Agreed 100%.
A believer enters into the Kingdom of God here on earth.
The invisible church.
The Body of Christ.

I do believe God can use any occasion as baptism to make Himself known. But it's not the water its God that saves.
And in this case He used the occasion of baptism of what was practiced in that time.

It's God that saves.
Agreed.
Why do you think baptism was so important for Jesus?
Baptism also seems to run throughout the OT. Like the flood for instance - Noah.
The parting of the waters - Moses.
Jeremiah said God would wash our hearts - sprinkle water.
More I can't think of right now.

If we go back to the Law when one was made clean they were to go to the priest and the priest would present a sacrifice. Like in the leper. It was definitely a process! But the priest had to show Him as clean before He could enter the community. The other day I believe God gave me this revelation. WHAT I JUST WROTE TGAT IS.

This is interesting because it was also believed in the early church that confession had to do with becoming a member of a community.

Recall this was outward. Right (lepORSYy)

As I think I discussed earlier, and I could be wrong,
Belief in Jesus with the intent to follow is How we receive the Spirit. So as Ephesians 2, 4-9 states we were saved by being dead in trespasses and sin but quicken together with Christ.

OK That's what baptism is:
dying in the water and being made alive in Christ.

MAYBE the difference is that the Holy Spirit is with us before baptism,
but indwells us after baptism.
(this would be why some speak in tongues).

So here you believed the word and received the Spirit. (Saved from being dead tresspass and sin) Now this is my thought-

Can a dead person seek God with the right Spirit until He is given the Spirit and made alive..My thought right now is no.

What you're saying is that a person has to be born again before he can be born again.
A person is dead but God gives to everyone enough grace so that they could be aware of God's presence.
Read Romans 1:18......
God has always revealed Himself to mankind.

I like
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
That WHOEVER believes in Him...
This means anyone has the ability to believe.

So when one believes they are given a new heart, but now what about the outside? Remember the leper, If I racall correctly He also had an outward washing. But look at this passage:


Then Jesus said to him, “Don't tell anyone about this. Instead, go to the priest and let him examine you. Take along the offering required in the law of Moses for those who have been healed of leprosy. This will be a public testimony that you have been cleansed.”

Here I can say that when we get a new heart, on the inside, we will also change on the outside - meaning in ways that will be visible to others.
Very good point!

So at Baptism I believe we now are the Sacrifice or offering symbolically in the sense figuratively we are mimicking Christ.

But these are my thoughts until I learn more to confirm.

Do you mean like
Romans 12:1
1Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship.

When Jesus was Baptized the Heavens opened God confirms His son so what should have taken place possibly for any one with true Faith at their Baptism is more likely the pouring out of His Spirit. But these are things I still need to look into. For God confirmed Jesus with the doves too and His words.

But look who He pours out His Spirit on:

Acts 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out My Spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams.

The above is speaking about end times and I don't believe it fits into our discussion.

Adding but read acts the holy Spirit fell on those who heard the message. All types of flesh like poor, homeless gentiles..etc




Correct me where Im wrong

The Holy Spirit fell on those that heard the message and received it.
I think all flesh re the end times means something different but I know very little about eschatology.

 

[Randy]

Let me print them out:
Acts 19:4-7
4Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.”
5On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues b and prophesied. 7There were about twelve men in all.
Acts 10:44-48
44While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message.
45The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles.
46For they heard them speaking in tongues b and praising God.
Then Peter said,
47“Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”
48So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days.
I was saying how there's a FORM to baptize...
that is a formula that needs to be followed.
I believe that there's only one denomination that believes we're to baptize in the name of Jesus only.

Every denomination baptizes using the FORM/FORMULA that Jesus left us with and they follow His instruction:
Matthew 28:19
Baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.
This is the formula that is to be followed according to Jesus.

Again, being baptized in the name of Jesus is used only to differentiate the baptism of John.
Jesus' baptism is with fire and the Holy Spirit.


And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, Matthew 28:19 in living water. But if you have not living water, baptize into other water; and if you can not in cold, in warm.
The Didache (the teachings of the Apostles)
Chapter 7
Approx 90AD


I will also relate the manner in which we dedicated ourselves to God when we had been made new through Christ; lest, if we omit this, we seem to be unfair in the explanation we are making. As many as are persuaded and believe that what we teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, are instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we praying and fasting with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, “Except ye be born again, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.”
Justin Martyr
110-165AD
(JM was taught by a student of John the Apostle)

I showed people who were baptized in Jesus's name who did not receive the Spirit at that time. But later when the Apostles laid hands on them. Don's excuse was they didn't follow the formula-(Father, Son, Holy Spirit). (Unlikely in my mind). As my testimony is that I didn't receive the Spirit at my baptism as an infant, but later when I understood to ask for that gift as in one calling on the Lord. Then at that time I received the Spirit but I had been baptized earlier as well. (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) I still maintain we are saved by grace and through faith and we are made clean by what God does not by any works. We simply need to avoid things that make us unclean. As shown love does no harm to one's neighbor and by loving others it fulfills all the law as in remains clean. I didn't mean to get neck deep into baptism's which were ordained by the Lord as in "making disciples" and teaching them to obey all that Jesus commanded as well.

 

[Corinth77777]

God has no limits

But if you reject the ordinary means don’t count on the extraordinary

According to who? God has been good to me! THERE HAS BEEN SO MUCH CONFUSION OVER IT. Anyone that does righteos is acceptable to Him.
As long as your conscience is clear before God then whose going to show you it's not.
God knows the state of this world. As far as translation and misunderstanding.

Jn 3:5 what’s the water for?

NICK WAS THINKING NATURALLY

SO Jesus met him where his knowledge was.
process of New life, physical birth Which water burst and baby is born.

Flesh gives birth to Flesh

 

[GodsGrace]

Its stated those who don't believe will be condemned not those who believe and confess with their mouth but are not baptized in water.

Right.
Those who do not believe will be lost.
No use to get baptized if one doesn't believe.

BUT

Mark 16:16 also states that IF one believes AND is baptized, he will be saved.

What does that mean to you?
It sounds like if one believes he must also be baptized.

As we know those who don't believe take the weight of the guilt from their own sin to the grave. As I have already shown its also stated "whosoever calls on the Lord will be saved as in believing in their heart and confessing with their mouth. So I find its a matter of debate in regard to believing and being saved only through water baptism which by the way states "by the resurrection of Jesus Christ" and a good will pledge towards God. But this thread is not about water baptism but about being saved through faith or works of salvation that is humility.

Agreed that this thread is not ONLY about being saved by baptism...
but the NT makes a point of this. By believing AND being baptized.

We most definitely are saved by faith the instant we believe.
We are not saved by works, but works follow salvation or we have a dead faith.

I'm not sure where humility comes in although I can attest to the fact that pride is probably
the number one sin, if not egotism.

I maintain grace through faith. A righteousness that is credited from first to last by faith. We are made clean by the grace of God received through our faith in Christ. Not any of are own works. I am not against water baptism.

Agreed.

1 Peter 3:21-22 New International Version (NIV)​

and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

That now saves you also.
What do you make of that?
I don't believe baptism is a work.
(as some do).

 

[donadams]

And?

And Christians should practice the virtues of Jesus Christ!
I don’t recall arrogance being one of them.

 

[Corinth77777]

Above you're referring to Matthew 28:19
I don't really like to wonder if maybe Jesus meant something else.
You said He means immersing us into reality...
Jesus specifically said to be baptized.
I don't really fully understand why, but I think we have to do what He said.
Preaching was a reality, teaching also, exorcising demons also,
so I have to think that baptism was also a reality, maybe not the type you mean, not sure.
The reality would be of dying and coming back to life in Jesus.
I believe it's more than a symbol or a representation of something going on inside,
but, as I've said many times, I don't really understand baptism, but I know it must be done.

Well I explained some of this already. But I can explain. Its all about Life in the kingdom. That requires an intimate relationship. By us destroying the works of the devil through the Spirit for everyday life we receive from God and transformation. IF BY THE spirit you put away the deeds of the flesh you shall live.

I'LL finish RESPONDING LATER but read the passage the of so called great commission ....there is power when one is surrounded in the presence of God.



yes, you should do what Jesus commands. But if one doesn't understand then will they experience what those did in their day the way they did. If not should they get baptized again after they understand?

The second verse was Mark 16:16
If one has believed and been baptized, he will be saved.
If one has not believed, he is lost.

OK, so I don't think it's like a sticker.
To me it's something that has to be really happening.

And as to Mark, yes, those who do not believe are lost, no sense in getting baptized since that ALONE
till not save anyone, but following Jesus' teachings as in Matthew 28:19.
(and baptism is one of His teachings).



Agreed 100% except I'm not sure what you mean by "symbolically baptized".



Do you mean that a non-believer will become a believer at baptism?
This I cannot agree to. First belief, then baptism.
Speaking in tongues could happen at baptism, or it could happen later on with the laying on of hands,
or even through nothing, but the person just wants this and it happens.


You said ALSO, so I can agree.
Baptism is ALSO a sign to the world.


Agreed 100%.
A believer enters into the Kingdom of God here on earth.
The invisible church.
The Body of Christ.


It's God that saves.
Agreed.
Why do you think baptism was so important for Jesus?
Baptism also seems to run throughout the OT. Like the flood for instance - Noah.
The parting of the waters - Moses.
Jeremiah said God would wash our hearts - sprinkle water.
More I can't think of right now.



This is interesting because it was also believed in the early church that confession had to do with becoming a member of a community.

OK That's what baptism is:
dying in the water and being made alive in Christ.

MAYBE the difference is that the Holy Spirit is with us before baptism,
but indwells us after baptism.
(this would be why some speak in tongues).

What you're saying is that a person has to be born again before he can be born again.
A person is dead but God gives to everyone enough grace so that they could be aware of God's presence.
Read Romans 1:18......
God has always revealed Himself to mankind.

I like
John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
That WHOEVER believes in Him...
This means anyone has the ability to believe.


Here I can say that when we get a new heart, on the inside, we will also change on the outside - meaning in ways that will be visible to others.
Very good point!


Do you mean like
Romans 12:1
1Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship.


The above is speaking about end times and I don't believe it fits into our discussion.


The Holy Spirit fell on those that heard the message and received it.
I think all flesh re the end times means something different but I know very little about eschatology.

 

[Corinth77777]

And Christians should practice the virtues of Jesus Christ!
I don’t recall arrogance being one of them.

But yet you judged me to hell when I first responded...
I just said And? I AM WATCHING THE BABY.

 

[GodsGrace]

Mark 16:16 The requirements for those who are being saved cannot be undone by the requirements for those not being saved! He who believes and is baptized is still required for salvation? Heaven and earth may pass away but my words shall not pass away!

It is Reasonable that if one rejects faith why bother mentioning the second requirement?

Agreed.
That was not my intention, if that's what you thought.

So don’t negate the word of God or the eternal words of Jesus by trying to delete one verse with another.

Why is baptism include with the Lord and the faith? Eph 4:5

Jn 3:5 what’s the water for?

Context of Jn 3:5 “born again”

John1:26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; (John prepared the way by baptism)

John 2:6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece. (Old covenant prefiguring of baptism, purification from sin)(His disciples believed because the ever Virgin mother of God interceded Jn 2:11)

Agreed.

John3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (Baptism)

(Key verse! Actions speak louder than words: verse 22)

Agreed.

John 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. 23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.(Baptism / water)

John 4:1 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John.

Born again means Baptismal regeneration! Not salvation proper but the beginning of salvation, union with God and the communion of saints by the grace of Jesus Christ the mediator of the new covenant!

I think you just carry it too far Don.
A person becomes born again when they come to believe in God.
John 3:16
Romans 10:8-11
8But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” d that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim:
9If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.
11As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”

The word is in your heart and in your mouth.
God sees the heart. It matters not what goes into the mouth, but what comes out of the mouth -- to the glory of God.
If you believe in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead -YOU WILL BE SAVED.
For it is with the heart that ONE IS JUSTIFIED (born again).
And our confession, with the mouth, declares we are born again.

And remember Acts 16:31
What shall I do to be saved, asked the jailor....
BELIEVE IN JESUS AND YOU WILL BE SAVED.

God made it easy.
Man makes it difficult.

Jn 15:4 Matt 24:13


baptismal regeneration!
A new creation in Christ! 2 cor 5:17
Jn 1 JTB prepared the way by baptism!
Jn 2 the waters of purification are OT prefigurement of baptism!
Jn 3:5 born again means baptism
Jn 3:22 they immediately went to the river! Not to preach “accept Christ as personal lord and savior”
But to BAPTIZE!!!

Thanks

John 3:22
Jesus baptized....but I'd say He spend more time healing, teaching, preaching.

You may not like the expression Personal Lord and Savior....
but ask any priest and he'll tell you that a person must come to decide for Christ on THEIR OWN.
It IS a personal decision.
Again, John 3:16 WHOEVER

 

[GodsGrace]

If something is truly not possible then it’s not required but if it is readily available and rejected that’s another matter

REJECTED being the key word.
RCIA is about a year long.
Those persons are not rejecting baptism...
they just haven't had it yet.
(don't be tougher on persons than God is).

 

[GodsGrace]

I showed people who were baptized in Jesus's name who did not receive the Spirit at that time. But later when the Apostles laid hands on them. Don's excuse was they didn't follow the formula-(Father, Son, Holy Spirit). (Unlikely in my mind). As my testimony is that I didn't receive the Spirit at my baptism as an infant, but later when I understood to ask for that gift as in one calling on the Lord. Then at that time I received the Spirit but I had been baptized earlier as well. (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) I still maintain we are saved by grace and through faith and we are made clean by what God does not by any works. We simply need to avoid things that make us unclean. As shown love does no harm to one's neighbor and by loving others it fulfills all the law as in remains clean. I didn't mean to get neck deep into baptism's which were ordained by the Lord as in "making disciples" and teaching them to obey all that Jesus commanded as well.

I agree with you.
So we'll stop talking about baptism....
Catholic baptism is a little complicated, but I do believe the Holy Spirit is received.
He just won't be used unless we want Him to be used...

 

[donadams]

Right. Inasmuch as salvation is an undeserved gift, there is no work required to obtain it. Simply receiving it, by faith, is sufficient.

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Titus 3:5
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

2 Timothy 1:9
9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

Refers to redemption not salvation

 

[donadams]

According to who? God has been good to me! THERE HAS BEEN SO MUCH CONFUSION OVER IT. Anyone that does righteos is acceptable to Him.
As long as your conscience is clear before God then whose going to show you it's not.
God knows the state of this world. As far as translation and misunderstanding.



NICK WAS THINKING NATURALLY

SO Jesus met him where his knowledge was.
process of New life, physical birth Which water burst and baby is born.

Flesh gives birth to Flesh

But it says born again by water AND the spirit

The cos is water and the spirit not the spirit alone!

Anyone righteous is acceptable
Jesus said you cannot enter unless you are born again no matter how righteous you are

 

[donadams]

But yet you judged me to hell when I first responded...
I just said And? I AM WATCHING THE BABY.

I judge no one, sorry

We are not enemies friend

You can ask me anything

 

[donadams]

Agreed.
That was not my intention, if that's what you thought.


Agreed.



Agreed.



I think you just carry it too far Don.
A person becomes born again when they come to believe in God.
John 3:16
Romans 10:8-11
8But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” d that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim:
9If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.
11As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”

The word is in your heart and in your mouth.
God sees the heart. It matters not what goes into the mouth, but what comes out of the mouth -- to the glory of God.
If you believe in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead -YOU WILL BE SAVED.
For it is with the heart that ONE IS JUSTIFIED (born again).
And our confession, with the mouth, declares we are born again.

And remember Acts 16:31
What shall I do to be saved, asked the jailor....
BELIEVE IN JESUS AND YOU WILL BE SAVED.

God made it easy.
Man makes it difficult.



John 3:22
Jesus baptized....but I'd say He spend more time healing, teaching, preaching.

You may not like the expression Personal Lord and Savior....
but ask any priest and he'll tell you that a person must come to decide for Christ on THEIR OWN.
It IS a personal decision.
Again, John 3:16 WHOEVER

Baptism is included in the Christian faith
Our salvation is in common jude 1:3

 

[Tenchi]

Refers to redemption not salvation

Oh? How are these different in your mind?

And what of all the rest I observed about the proof-texts you offered?

 

[donadams]

T

I don't know what this means... What does the "things unseen are eternal" stuff have to do with your begging to differ with my analogy? And anyway, you've not actually interacted with what I wrote but simply disagreed with it in an entirely dismissive way. This isn't the conduct of a thoughtful person.



What difference does any of this make to what I wrote? As far as I can tell, nothing you put forward here rebuts or denies anything that I wrote in my last post.

As my last post explained, there are no co-saviors with Christ. We do not, and cannot, save ourselves. When we come to Christ for salvation, we come as those profoundly weak, stained by sin, and bound under the power of the World, the Flesh and the devil.

Romans 5:6-9
6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die.
8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.

Titus 3:3-6
3 For we also once were foolish ourselves, disobedient, deceived, enslaved to various lusts and pleasures, spending our life in malice and envy, hateful, hating one another.
4 But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared,
5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,

Colossians 1:13-14
13 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,
14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Ephesians 2:1-5
1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience.
3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

And so on. Our obedience to God's command to be saved doesn't save us. Only Christ, through his redemptive work on the cross, saves us. We don't - and cannot - do anything to contribute to Christ's Atonement. There is only one Savior.

hen everyone is saved?