Wresting or Reasoning Scripture

[Jethro Bodine]

To him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— 25to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

Jude 1:24-25 does not mean you can not fall away and be lost.
It means your confidence in Christ is well placed and so you should keep believing and not lose the benefit of so great a High Priest.

"14 ...since we have a great high priest...let us hold firmly to the faith we profess." - Hebrews 4:14

"21 ...since we have a great priest... 23 Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful." - Hebrews 10:21,23

You are sure Jude 1: 24-25 and other passages can only be understood one way, the OSAS way. I'm showing you that's not true at all. There is the way that the Bible itself says to understand them--and the church has rejected that way. OSAS has in these end times blinded the church so it can't see what the Bible actually says.

 

[Randy]

Going back to unbelief is not amnesia as if you never heard the gospel before.
For the enlightened one, unbelief is a choice.
A choice to not care about the love of God in the forgiveness of sin anymore and to go back to your old life.
The believer who does that will go to hell when Jesus returns, not into the kingdom.
That's what the Bible says.

Those who never heard the gospel before wouldn't be born again. (Christ in us)

If I stated I no longer believed in Jesus as Lord and Christ and denied Him I would be a liar.

Why I can conceptualize a difference between those just coming into the new faith in a very pagan world than those who are mature in the faith the line drawn to me is those who have the Spirit.

They could no longer forget this then I can forget my relationship with Jesus.

For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. He received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain

That leaves a willful and untruthful denial of Jesus as the Christ with the full knowledge of the truth. As I stated eternal suicide. Highly unlikely to me. Insanity!

 

[Randy]

Jude 1:24-25 does not mean you can not fall away and be lost.
It means your confidence in Christ is well placed and so you should keep believing and not lose the benefit of so great a High Priest.

"14 ...since we have a great high priest...let us hold firmly to the faith we profess." - Hebrews 4:14

"21 ...since we have a great priest... 23 Let us hold unswervingly to the hope we profess, for he who promised is faithful." - Hebrews 10:21,23

You are sure Jude 1: 24-25 and other passages can only be understood one way, the OSAS way. I'm showing you that's not true at all. There is the way that the Bible itself says to understand them--and the church has rejected that way. OSAS has in these end times blinded the church so it can't see what the Bible actually says.

And I state unbelief can not be the cause. You can post all the scriptures you want but I KNOW my Lord. Any denial would be a deliberate lie.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

2 Pet 1:8-9 "For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins."

 

[Randy]

2 Pet 1:8-9 "For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins."

That is not a denial of Jesus.
It was the remedy for:
For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Hopeful]

Are you speaking for yourself or God??

Both.

Romans 7:14-25, PAUL says, "For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am of flesh, sold into bondage of sin.
For that which I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing that I hate.
But I do the very thing I do not wish to do, I agree with the law,confessing it is good.
So now. no longer am I the one doing it, but sin that dwells within me.
For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the wishing is present within me, but the doing of good is not.
For the good that I wish, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not wish.
23... I find then the principle that evil is present within me, for I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against my mind, and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
24...WRETCHED MAN TAT I AM !! Who will set me free from the body of this death (Sin)??
Thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord ! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh, the law of sin."

As this is a recollection of Paul's unsuccessful attempts at keeping the Law of Moses before his conversion, it is appropriate that he answers the problems he laments from his past.
First, the law of sin in verse 23 has been eliminated in Romans 8:2..."For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus
hath made me free from the law of sin and death."
This illustrates that Paul's Rom 7 lament was for a past condition.
Second...the body of this death from verse 24 has already been dealt with in Romans 6:6..."Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."
There is no "body of this death" to mourn for anymore, as it was crucified with Christ at Paul's baptism into Christ's death in Rom 6:3-7.
Romans 7 is a short recap of Paul's life before conversion, and Rom 8 launches his walk in the Spirit instead of in the flesh.

If God speaks so much about forgiveness, and He does, Matth. 7-14, forgiving others as God forgives you, Matt. 6:14-15, 1st John 1:9,
so then, why does God need to speak so much about forgiveness if believers never sin?

Not everyone reading the bible has turned from darkness yet.
The Advocate is available to all who will turn from the darkness and unto light, both now and in the future.

Non-believers can't be forgiven, so I guess that leaves WHO...?

Non-believers CAN be forgiven, but if they never hear that they can be forgiven they will never make the attempt to find forgiveness.

God doesn't just judge the act of sin,...

You have been lied to.
Peter writes..."For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?" (1 Peter 4:17)
All men will be judged for the deeds done in their bodies.

...but he judges the intent and the heart of the Christian who sins.
Non-believers have no access to forgiveness from God, that's what makes believers and non-believers so different - PRAISE GOD!!

What is the difference between a sinning believer and a sinning unbeliever?
Nothing, as neither believes John 8:32-34..."And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin."
Servants of sin either don't know or have decided to ignore the truth Jesus referred to.

No man can serve two masters.
He will either serve God or he will serve sin.

 

[Hopeful]

The fall into unbelief is indeed that of an unbeliever. The question is whether or not a real believer can stop believing and become an unbeliever.

Calvinist OSAS says the person who falls away into unbelief was never a real believer to begin with.
Freegrace OSAS doctrine says real believers can fall into unbelief but they remain saved.

I go with what the Bible says.
If a person sanctified and made perfect by the blood of Christ willingly sins in defiant unbelief (and refuses to come back) they lose the protection from Judgement that they had in the sacrifice of Jesus and have nothing left to look forward to except to be destroyed with the enemies of God.

"26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” d and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” e 31It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God." - Hebrews 10:26-31

I put Freegrace OSAS doctrine in the category of the stumbling blocks we are talking about in another thread.
I give Calvinist OSAS credit for at least defending the necessity to keep believing and living a holy life in order to be saved when Jesus returns. Freegrace doctrine disposes of both of those things from their OSAS beliefs.

I'm with you on this one.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

And I state unbelief can not be the cause. You can post all the scriptures you want but I KNOW my Lord. Any denial would be a deliberate lie.

EXACTLY!
That's what I'm saying!
It's called 'blasphemy of the Holy Spirit'.
It's calling the Holy Spirit a liar, attributing his work to that of a lying spirit when you know full well that it is not.
There is not forgiveness for that sin. It can not be overlooked. It is the 'sin unto death' for both (ex) believer and unbeliever alike.

 

[Randy]

History shows in any religion when church and state are fused Hypocrisy reigns. Do you think those who put Tyndale to death belonged to Jesus? Do you think the inquisitions were carried out by those in Christ? If they knew my Lord then they would have feared His judgments to do such wickedness. Rather it is those who do the will of His Father in heaven that enter life.

Bart Ehrman claimed to grow up as a christian and was a born again believer. I have asked Him but did not receive a answer, "how can one have the Spirit of Christ in them and not know Jesus lives"?
Bart now is agnostic in what he knows and a atheist in what he believes. He writes alot of hostile books toward "Christianity". Against other religions not so much.
Bart can't know the Father apart from the Son for the salvation of the Father is given through the Son.

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

Many claimed and outwardly participated as those in Christ but by their actions have denied Him. I believe such people never belonged or knew Jesus. People who are not His sheep. People who do not have the Spirit.

This I know. I can never truthfully deny Jesus. I can't be alone in this.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

2 Pet 1:8-9 "For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins."

I thought Randy was going to use this one, lol.

 

[Randy]

EXACTLY!
That's what I'm saying!
It's called 'blasphemy of the Holy Spirit'.
It's calling the Holy Spirit a liar, attributing his work to that of a lying spirit when you know full well that it is not.
There is not forgiveness for that sin. It can not be overlooked. It is the 'sin unto death' for both (ex) believer and unbeliever alike.

While possibly possible highly unlikely. Eternal suicide. Would such not fear Jesus? The lake of fire is well known.

 

[Randy]

I thought Randy was going to use this one, lol.

You mean like my real name. LOL

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Bart Ehrman claimed to grow up as a christian and was a born again believer. I have asked Him but did not receive a answer, "how can one have the Spirit of Christ in them and not know Jesus lives"?

It isn't that he now has amnesia about the gospel (Jesus who?).
It's about him now not caring that Jesus lives.
It's willful unbelief, not unbelief because he doesn't know if Jesus is real or not.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You mean like my real name. LOL

Huh?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

This I know. I can never truthfully deny Jesus. I can't be alone in this.

Part of maturing in Christ is realizing not everyone is like you, or has to be like you.
That was a big, big lesson for me.

I can't understand why my tongue speaking wife renounced the faith. She's not like me, and I owe it to her to be able to be different than me.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Many claimed and outwardly participated as those in Christ but by their actions have denied Him. I believe such people never belonged or knew Jesus. People who are not His sheep. People who do not have the Spirit.

There are certainly those kinds of 'ex' believers. Perhaps the vast majority of 'ex' believers are these who were never truly born again to begin with.
But we're talking about people who really were sanctified by the blood of Christ, made perfect forever by His sacrifice who then trample on his sacrifice in willful defiance and unbelief. Hebrews 10 says these ex-believers are going to hell. They do not get to keep the benefit of Christ's sacrifice and have no further protection from the wrath of God at the end of the age.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That is not a denial of Jesus.
It was the remedy for:
For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

I think it could be both, but I tend to lean toward it being what you're saying.
People who lose sight of the great weight of sin they have been forgiven can shrink down into unforgiveness, mercilessness, and not being very gracious towards others, and so they become ineffective and unproductive in the knowledge of Christ they possess. It seems to be more of a problem the farther away from our salvation experience we go. I often have to be reminded of where I've come from so I can be more compassionate and understanding of others caught up in sin. Those reminders usually aren't very pleasant.

 

[Randy]

It isn't that he now has amnesia about the gospel (Jesus who?).
It's about him now not caring that Jesus lives.
It's willful unbelief, not unbelief because he doesn't know if Jesus is real or not.

According to Him he's agnostic in what he "knows" and a atheist in what he believes. He is also highly antagonistic towards the faith.

 

[Randy]

Part of maturing in Christ is realizing not everyone is like you, or has to be like you.
That was a big, big lesson for me.

I can't understand why my tongue speaking wife renounced the faith. She's not like me, and I owe it to her to be able to be different than me.

I have never spoke in tongues. I have kept the faith. If your wife has left the faith that tells me she never had a relationship with Jesus. So did she lose her ability to speak in tongues or is now stating she wasn't speaking in tongues? For it doesn't make sense to me if she thought she spoke in tongues was really from above how she could deny the faith.
I know everyone is not like me but many are. Theology is for all though.

 

[Randy]

Huh?

If your name really is Jethro Bodine my bad.