Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
-
Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
-
Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
-
-
How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
-
Yahwah's name was in the original New Testament scriptures
- Thread starter CherubRam
- Start date
I don’t know what a “trin believer” is or what a “trin believer” believes.
Let’s just stick to what the scripture says and avoid unbiblical names or labels.
Words of Christ in red:
I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and, “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.”
Revelation 1:10-11
“And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.” Revelation 22:12-13
Do you believe Jesus Christ is the Alpha and Omega, the First and Last, the Beginning and the End?
JLB
The only hypocrisy is on your part--you have avoided addressing all arguments and passages of scripture that prove difficult for your position.
You ignore much of what he said. What you do not have the right to do is be disruptive on these forums. If you're not going to discuss and debate the issues, then please stop disrupting threads with posts that contribute absolutely nothing to the discussion.
More name calling without addressing the scriptures I posted.
Let's try to find common ground by referring to what the scriptures teach.
I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and, “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.”
Revelation 1:10-11 NKJV
I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. Revelation 1:10-11 KJV
Do you believe the Lord Jesus Christ is the Alpha and Omega, the First and Last, the Beginning and the End?
JLB
When you refer to man's resoning instead of allowing the scriptures to renew your mind, then you are denying God.
During the time when Jesus was on the earth as a human, when he was in Nazareth at the synagogue the scroll of Isaiah was handed to him and Jesus found the scripture Isaiah 61:1-2 where God's name YHWH is there twice. Jesus pronounced the name YHWH both times he came across it. So I don't believe the name YHWH was lost in the old Testament times. It was lost sometime after Jesus died and was resurrected and went back into heaven and the apostles and first century Christians died. I believe it was taken out of the scriptures by those who said they were Christians.
You have been using your own made-up doctrine to attack the Truth.
All you are doing is patching here and there.
An excellent example is God is triune, Jesus is God.
You are doing this because there is no legitimate claim from Jesus' own word.
First, there wasn't and hasn't been any name calling. Second, there is nothing to address other than you're fallaciously begging the question when it comes to the NIV (and, by extension, almost all modern versions). Your reasoning is not sound.
Already dealt with: https://christianforums.net/threads...stament-scriptures.98630/page-12#post-1799550
Again, God is Logic, so when I use reasoning, I am reasoning in the same way God reasons. When a believer denies the use of reason, they are, in a sense, denying God.
It was lost at some point. That is the point.
On what basis? What evidence do you have?
Ok, I ask you what you guys have been avoiding answering since you claim to be all scriptural.
Where does the Bible say God is triune or Father and Jesus are one God, or Jesus is God?
I don't follow your questions because you have been avoiding my point all this time.
Be fair and honest in debating.
The evidence is the fact that Jesus Christ when he was on earth as a human he knew how to pronounce YHWH God name. When Jesus was on earth as a human and he was in the town named Nazareth at the synagogue, the scroll of Isaiah was handed to him and he took the scroll and found Isaiah 61:1, 2 where God's name YHWH is there twice. Jesus pronounced the name YHWH both times he came across it, he didn't use the word LORD When Jesus Christ came across YHWH. When Jesus was on earth he made his Father name known. So like I said I believe Jesus Christ and his apostles and disciples of 1C.E. knew the the pronunciation of YHWH God name. It was sometime after Jesus went back into heaven and the apostles and disciples of Jesus Christ of the first century died that the name YHWH was replaced with LORD(Adhonai) or GOD(Theos)
Do you ever use scripture?
And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, Matthew 28:18-19
- baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit
Is the Father;
God?
Man?
Angel?
Other?
Is the Son;
God?
Man?
Angel?
Other?
Is the Holy Spirit;
God?
Man?
Angel?
Other?
JLB
"Holy Spirit" is a title for our Heavenly Father, Yahwah.
Here is the oldest recorded document of Matthew 28:19.
"The Demonstratio Evangelica" by Eusebius:
Eusebius of Caesarea. 265 ? AD.– 337 ? AD.
Eusebius was the Church historian and Bishop of Caesarea. On page 152 Eusebius quotes the early book of Matthew that he had in his library in Caesarea. Eusebius informs us of Yahshua's actual words to his disciples in the original text of Matthew 28:19.
Quote: "With one word and voice He said to His disciples: "Go, and make disciples of all nations in My Name, teaching them to observe all...
And again Eusebius for example, in Book III of his History, Chapter 5, Section 2, which is about the Jewish persecution of early Christians, we read:
"But the rest of the disciples, who had been incessantly plotted against with a view to their destruction, and had been driven out of the land of Judea, went to all nations to preach the good news, relying upon the power of Christ, who had said to them, "Go ye and make disciples of all the nations in my name."
And again, in his Oration in Praise of Emperor Constantine, Chapter 16, Section 8, we read:
"What king or prince in any age of the world, what philosopher, legislator or prophet, in civilized or barbarous lands, has attained so great a height of excellence, I say not after death, but while living still, and full of mighty power, as to fill the ears and tongues of all mankind with the praises of his name?
Surely none save our only Savior has done this, when, after his victory over death, he spoke these words to his followers, and fulfilled it by that event, saying to them, "Go ye and make disciples of all nations in my name."
There is not a single occurrence of the disciples baptizing anyone using the Trinitarian formula. All of the scripture in the New Testament shows that people were baptized into the name of Yahshua, even after Pentecost.
And when people in church leadership received the Holy Spirit, it was without the Trinitarian formula as in Acts 8:17.
Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
All of the Trinity proof text are corrupted scriptures.
John 5:41 “I do not accept glory from human beings, 42 but I know you. I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts. 43 I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. 44 How can you believe since you accept glory from one another but do not seek the glory that comes from the only God.
Is it? Then why are the Father and the Holy Spirit are always mentioned as though they are distinct?
Why do you keep repeating arguments that have been shown to be problematic, at best? As I have responded before:
And yet, the Didache was written much earlier than that, as early as AD 50, and while it says nothing of Matt 28:19, it does say to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Justin Martyr (c. 100 - c. 165), in First Apology, chapter 61, says, "For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water." While he isn't quoting Matt 28:19, it is in full agreement. You'll also notice how early the doctrine of the Trinity was being believed and written about.
Iranaeus says in Against Heresies (c. 180), book 3, chapter 17, section 1: 'And again, giving to the disciples the power of regeneration into God, He said to them,” Go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.”'
Tertullian also mentions the triune formula in On Baptism (AD 200-206), chapter XIII: ' For the law of baptizing has been imposed, and the formula prescribed: “Go,” He saith, “teach the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.”' In Prescription Against Heretics, chapter 20, he says, 'He commanded the eleven others, on His departure to the Father, to “go and teach all nations, who were to be baptized into the Father, and into the Son, and into the Holy Ghost.”'
There is plenty of early evidence that the church was using the triune formula and were commanded to do so, whether from Matt 28:19 or otherwise. That Matt 28:19 was changed is questionable.
Such as? You have made this claim before but have never shown this to be the case.
This is proof-texting. You have divorced this verse from the rest of the chapter, the rest of John, and the rest of the NT, which is going to give you a different understanding than what it is a
Look at what Jesus says just prior to that verse:
Joh 5:16 And this was why the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because he was doing these things on the Sabbath.
Joh 5:17 But Jesus answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I am working.”
Joh 5:18 This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. (ESV)
The Jews understood full well that Jesus's claim to work on the Sabbath was a claim to deity. He not only claims that God is his Father, but says that he works on the Sabbath because his Father has never ceased working, even on the Sabbath. This is a clear claim of equality with the Father.
The Didache is a second century CATHOLIC document.
Holy Spirit
Before it was determined that the Holy Spirit was a third person of a Trinity, (by the Catholics in the 4th century) it was understood that "Holy Spirit" was a title for the Father.
Genesis 1:2
Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
Leviticus 24:15
15 Say to the Israelites: ‘Anyone who curses their God will be held responsible; 16 anyone who blasphemes the name of (the Lord / Yahwah) is to be put to death.
Matthew 12:31
And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.
Luke 12:10
And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.
John 4:24
God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”
Revelation 4:8
Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under its wings. Day and night they never stop saying: “‘Holy, holy, holy is (the Lord / Yahwah) God Almighty,’
Yahwah is a Spirit, and He is Holy; and that is why He is called Holy Spirit.
Psalm 51:11
Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me.
Isaiah 63:10
Yet they rebelled and grieved his Holy Spirit. So he turned and became their enemy and he himself fought against them.
Isaiah 63:11
Then his people recalled the days of old, the days of Moses and his people— where is he who brought them through the sea, with the shepherd of his flock? Where is he who set his Holy Spirit among them,
Leviticus 24:16
anyone who blasphemes the name of (the Lord / Yahwah) is to be put to death. The entire assembly must stone them. Whether foreigner or native-born, when they blaspheme the Name they are to be put to death.
Numbers 15:30
“‘But anyone who sins defiantly, whether native-born or foreigner, blasphemes (the Lord / Yahwah) and must be cut off from the people of Israel.
Mark 3:29
but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.”
Luke 12:10
And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.
Matthew 12:31
And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.
John 4:24
God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.
Spirit of God
Genesis 1:2
Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
Genesis 41:38
So Pharaoh asked them, “Can we find anyone like this man, one in whom is the spirit of God?”
Exodus 31:3
and I have filled him with the Spirit of God, with wisdom, with understanding, with knowledge and with all kinds of skills—
Exodus 35:31
and he has filled him with the Spirit of God, with wisdom, with understanding, with knowledge and with all kinds of skills—
Numbers 24:2
When Balaam looked out and saw Israel encamped tribe by tribe, the Spirit of God came on him
1 Samuel 10:10
When he and his servant arrived at Gibeah, a procession of prophets met him; the Spirit of God came powerfully upon him, and he joined in their prophesying.
1 Samuel 11:6
When Saul heard their words, the Spirit of God came powerfully upon him, and he burned with anger.
1 Samuel 19:20
so he sent men to capture him. But when they saw a group of prophets prophesying, with Samuel standing there as their leader, the Spirit of God came on Saul’s men, and they also prophesied.
1 Samuel 19:23
So Saul went to Naioth at Ramah. But the Spirit of God came even on him, and he walked along prophesying until he came to Naioth.
2 Chronicles 15:1
The Spirit of God came on Azariah son of Oded.
2 Chronicles 24:20
Then the Spirit of God came on Zechariah son of Jehoiada the priest. He stood before the people and said, “This is what God says: ‘Why do you disobey the Lord’s commands? You will not prosper. Because you have forsaken the Lord, he has forsaken you.’”
Job 33:4
The Spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life.
Psalm 106:33
for they rebelled against the Spirit of God, and rash words came from Moses’ lips.
Ezekiel 11:24
The Spirit lifted me up and brought me to the exiles in Babylonia in the vision given by the Spirit of God. Then the vision I had seen went up from me,
Matthew 3:16
As soon as Yahshua was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him.
Matthew 12:28
But if it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
Romans 8:9
You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.
Romans 8:14
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.
Romans 15:19
by the power of signs and wonders, through the power of the Spirit of God. So from Jerusalem all the way around to Illyricum, I have fully proclaimed the gospel of Christ.
1 Corinthians 2:11
For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
1 Corinthians 2:14
The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.
1 Corinthians 7:40
In my judgment, she is happier if she stays as she is—and I think that I too have the Spirit of God.
1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Yahshua be cursed,” and no one can say, “Yahshua is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
Ephesians 4:30
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
1 John 4:2
This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Yahshua the Christ has come in the flesh is from God,
Genesis 1:2
Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
Genesis 41:38
So Pharaoh asked them, “Can we find anyone like this man, one in whom is the spirit of God?”
Exodus 31:3
and I have filled him with the Spirit of God, with wisdom, with understanding, with knowledge and with all kinds of skills—
Exodus 35:31
and he has filled him with the Spirit of God, with wisdom, with understanding, with knowledge and with all kinds of skills—
Numbers 24:2
When Balaam looked out and saw Israel encamped tribe by tribe, the Spirit of God came on him
1 Samuel 10:10
When he and his servant arrived at Gibeah, a procession of prophets met him; the Spirit of God came powerfully upon him, and he joined in their prophesying.
1 Samuel 11:6
When Saul heard their words, the Spirit of God came powerfully upon him, and he burned with anger.
1 Samuel 19:20
so he sent men to capture him. But when they saw a group of prophets prophesying, with Samuel standing there as their leader, the Spirit of God came on Saul’s men, and they also prophesied.
1 Samuel 19:23
So Saul went to Naioth at Ramah. But the Spirit of God came even on him, and he walked along prophesying until he came to Naioth.
2 Chronicles 15:1
The Spirit of God came on Azariah son of Oded.
2 Chronicles 24:20
Then the Spirit of God came on Zechariah son of Jehoiada the priest. He stood before the people and said, “This is what God says: ‘Why do you disobey the Lord’s commands? You will not prosper. Because you have forsaken the Lord, he has forsaken you.’”
Job 33:4
The Spirit of God has made me; the breath of the Almighty gives me life.
Psalm 106:33
for they rebelled against the Spirit of God, and rash words came from Moses’ lips.
Ezekiel 11:24
The Spirit lifted me up and brought me to the exiles in Babylonia in the vision given by the Spirit of God. Then the vision I had seen went up from me,
Matthew 3:16
As soon as Yahshua was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him.
Matthew 12:28
But if it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.
Romans 8:9
You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ.
Romans 8:14
For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.
Romans 15:19
by the power of signs and wonders, through the power of the Spirit of God. So from Jerusalem all the way around to Illyricum, I have fully proclaimed the gospel of Christ.
1 Corinthians 2:11
For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.
1 Corinthians 2:14
The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.
1 Corinthians 7:40
In my judgment, she is happier if she stays as she is—and I think that I too have the Spirit of God.
1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Yahshua be cursed,” and no one can say, “Yahshua is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
Ephesians 4:30
And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
1 John 4:2
This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Yahshua the Christ has come in the flesh is from God,