My point is that most versions do not have those words, not just the NIV.
Most post modern versions have gutted scripture in favor of human reasoning.
JLB
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My point is that most versions do not have those words, not just the NIV.
Trin believers omit or change many of Jesus' own words, it does not matter which version you cite.
I didn't see that my phone must have auto-corrected. You are fallaciously begging the question.Quoting scripture is “fallaciously getting the question”?
Why is that sad, when God is Logic? If you deny the use of reason, you are in a sense denying God.You prefer “reason”?
Sad.
Again, this is fallaciously begging the question.Most post modern versions have gutted scripture in favor of human reasoning.
The only hypocrisy is on your part--you have avoided addressing all arguments and passages of scripture that prove difficult for your position.I am only pointing out your hypocritical analyses.
You ignore much of what he said. What you do not have the right to do is be disruptive on these forums. If you're not going to discuss and debate the issues, then please stop disrupting threads with posts that contribute absolutely nothing to the discussion.I have the right to defend Jesus' word.
I didn't see that my phone must have auto-corrected. You are fallaciously begging the question.
Why is that sad, when God is Logic? If you deny the use of reason, you are in a sense denying God.
Again, this is fallaciously begging the question.
Why is that sad, when God is Logic? If you deny the use of reason, you are in a sense denying God.
During the time when Jesus was on the earth as a human, when he was in Nazareth at the synagogue the scroll of Isaiah was handed to him and Jesus found the scripture Isaiah 61:1-2 where God's name YHWH is there twice. Jesus pronounced the name YHWH both times he came across it. So I don't believe the name YHWH was lost in the old Testament times. It was lost sometime after Jesus died and was resurrected and went back into heaven and the apostles and first century Christians died. I believe it was taken out of the scriptures by those who said they were Christians.I know. That's not the point I was making.
Did they remember how to pronounce it? Or did this lead to their eventual forgetting of how to pronounce it? That is what I am getting at. We know that they became fearful of saying it lest they take God's name in vain. The issue is when that happened.
Your claim was: "Manmade reasoning is what has caused the name YHWH to be taken out of scripture, and replaced with titles like GOD & LORD and because of this no one knows the true pronunciation of the True God's name YHWH."
But I am saying that it likely happened before any supposed removal of God's name; the pronunciation was lost so the name was changed in the Septuagint to kurios, which of course, is "LORD" or "Lord" in English. What we can be certain of is that God's name was never Jehovah (a 13th or 14th century transliteration).
Again, that is not my point.
Yes, that is my point. And that may have eventually caused them to forget how to pronounce it.
They forgot how to pronounce it at some point.
You have been using your own made-up doctrine to attack the Truth.The only hypocrisy is on your part--you have avoided addressing all arguments and passages of scripture that prove difficult for your position.
First, there wasn't and hasn't been any name calling. Second, there is nothing to address other than you're fallaciously begging the question when it comes to the NIV (and, by extension, almost all modern versions). Your reasoning is not sound.More name calling without addressing the scriptures I posted.
Already dealt with: https://christianforums.net/threads...stament-scriptures.98630/page-12#post-1799550Let's try to find common ground by referring to what the scriptures teach.
I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and, “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.”
Revelation 1:10-11 NKJV
I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. Revelation 1:10-11 KJV
Do you believe the Lord Jesus Christ is the Alpha and Omega, the First and Last, the Beginning and the End?
Again, God is Logic, so when I use reasoning, I am reasoning in the same way God reasons. When a believer denies the use of reason, they are, in a sense, denying God.When you refer to man's resoning instead of allowing the scriptures to renew your mind, then you are denying God.
It was lost at some point. That is the point.During the time when Jesus was on the earth as a human, when he was in Nazareth at the synagogue the scroll of Isaiah was handed to him and Jesus found the scripture Isaiah 61:1-2 where God's name YHWH is there twice. Jesus pronounced the name YHWH both times he came across it. So I don't believe the name YHWH was lost in the old Testament times. It was lost sometime after Jesus died and was resurrected and went back into heaven and the apostles and first century Christians died.
On what basis? What evidence do you have?I believe it was taken out of the scriptures by those who said they were Christians.
Ok, I ask you what you guys have been avoiding answering since you claim to be all scriptural.I don’t know what a “trin believer” is or what a “trin believer” believes.
Let’s just stick to what the scripture says and avoid unbiblical names or labels.
Words of Christ in red:
I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and, “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.”
Revelation 1:10-11
“And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.” Revelation 22:12-13
Do you believe Jesus Christ is the Alpha and Omega, the First and Last, the Beginning and the End?
The evidence is the fact that Jesus Christ when he was on earth as a human he knew how to pronounce YHWH God name. When Jesus was on earth as a human and he was in the town named Nazareth at the synagogue, the scroll of Isaiah was handed to him and he took the scroll and found Isaiah 61:1, 2 where God's name YHWH is there twice. Jesus pronounced the name YHWH both times he came across it, he didn't use the word LORD When Jesus Christ came across YHWH. When Jesus was on earth he made his Father name known. So like I said I believe Jesus Christ and his apostles and disciples of 1C.E. knew the the pronunciation of YHWH God name. It was sometime after Jesus went back into heaven and the apostles and disciples of Jesus Christ of the first century died that the name YHWH was replaced with LORD(Adhonai) or GOD(Theos)It was lost at some point. That is the point.
On what basis? What evidence do you have?
Trin believers are triune god worshippers.I don’t know what a “trin believer” is or what a “trin believer” believes.
Trin believers are triune god worshippers.
they believe Jesus is God and God the Father, Son and the HS make one God which is void of Jesus' own word.
Is the Father;
God?
Man?
Angel?
Other?
Is the Son;
God?
Man?
Angel?
Other?
Is the Holy Spirit;
God?
Man?
Angel?
Other?
JLB
Do you have any word from Jesus that says that God is triune or Jesus is God?Do you ever use scripture?
And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, Matthew 28:18-19
- baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit
Is the Father;
God?
Man?
Angel?
Other?
Is the Son;
God?
Man?
Angel?
Other?
Is the Holy Spirit;
God?
Man?
Angel?
Other?
JLB
Do you ever use scripture?
And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, Matthew 28:18-19
- baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit
Is the Father;
God?
Man?
Angel?
Other?
Is the Son;
God?
Man?
Angel?
Other?
Is the Holy Spirit;
God?
Man?
Angel?
Other?
JLB
More name calling without addressing the scriptures I posted.
Let's try to find common ground by referring to what the scriptures teach.
I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet, saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last,” and, “What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea.”
Revelation 1:10-11 NKJV
I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. Revelation 1:10-11 KJV
Do you believe the Lord Jesus Christ is the Alpha and Omega, the First and Last, the Beginning and the End?
JLB
Is it? Then why are the Father and the Holy Spirit are always mentioned as though they are distinct?"Holy Spirit" is a title for our Heavenly Father, Yahwah.
Why do you keep repeating arguments that have been shown to be problematic, at best? As I have responded before:Here is the oldest recorded document of Matthew 28:19.
"The Demonstratio Evangelica" by Eusebius:
Eusebius of Caesarea. 265 ? AD.– 337 ? AD.
Eusebius was the Church historian and Bishop of Caesarea. On page 152 Eusebius quotes the early book of Matthew that he had in his library in Caesarea. Eusebius informs us of Yahshua's actual words to his disciples in the original text of Matthew 28:19.
Quote: "With one word and voice He said to His disciples: "Go, and make disciples of all nations in My Name, teaching them to observe all...
And again Eusebius for example, in Book III of his History, Chapter 5, Section 2, which is about the Jewish persecution of early Christians, we read:
"But the rest of the disciples, who had been incessantly plotted against with a view to their destruction, and had been driven out of the land of Judea, went to all nations to preach the good news, relying upon the power of Christ, who had said to them, "Go ye and make disciples of all the nations in my name."
And again, in his Oration in Praise of Emperor Constantine, Chapter 16, Section 8, we read:
"What king or prince in any age of the world, what philosopher, legislator or prophet, in civilized or barbarous lands, has attained so great a height of excellence, I say not after death, but while living still, and full of mighty power, as to fill the ears and tongues of all mankind with the praises of his name?
Surely none save our only Savior has done this, when, after his victory over death, he spoke these words to his followers, and fulfilled it by that event, saying to them, "Go ye and make disciples of all nations in my name."
There is not a single occurrence of the disciples baptizing anyone using the Trinitarian formula. All of the scripture in the New Testament shows that people were baptized into the name of Yahshua, even after Pentecost.
And when people in church leadership received the Holy Spirit, it was without the Trinitarian formula as in Acts 8:17.
Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
Such as? You have made this claim before but have never shown this to be the case.All of the Trinity proof text are corrupted scriptures.
This is proof-texting. You have divorced this verse from the rest of the chapter, the rest of John, and the rest of the NT, which is going to give you a different understanding than what it is aJohn 5:41 “I do not accept glory from human beings, 42 but I know you. I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts. 43 I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. 44 How can you believe since you accept glory from one another but do not seek the glory that comes from the only God.
The Didache is a second century CATHOLIC document.Is it? Then why are the Father and the Holy Spirit are always mentioned as though they are distinct?
Why do you keep repeating arguments that have been shown to be problematic, at best? As I have responded before:
And yet, the Didache was written much earlier than that, as early as AD 50, and while it says nothing of Matt 28:19, it does say to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Justin Martyr (c. 100 - c. 165), in First Apology, chapter 61, says, "For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Saviour Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water." While he isn't quoting Matt 28:19, it is in full agreement. You'll also notice how early the doctrine of the Trinity was being believed and written about.
Iranaeus says in Against Heresies (c. 180), book 3, chapter 17, section 1: 'And again, giving to the disciples the power of regeneration into God, He said to them,” Go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.”'
Tertullian also mentions the triune formula in On Baptism (AD 200-206), chapter XIII: ' For the law of baptizing has been imposed, and the formula prescribed: “Go,” He saith, “teach the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.”' In Prescription Against Heretics, chapter 20, he says, 'He commanded the eleven others, on His departure to the Father, to “go and teach all nations, who were to be baptized into the Father, and into the Son, and into the Holy Ghost.”'
There is plenty of early evidence that the church was using the triune formula and were commanded to do so, whether from Matt 28:19 or otherwise. That Matt 28:19 was changed is questionable.
Such as? You have made this claim before but have never shown this to be the case.
This is proof-texting. You have divorced this verse from the rest of the chapter, the rest of John, and the rest of the NT, which is going to give you a different understanding than what it is a
Look at what Jesus says just prior to that verse:
Joh 5:16 And this was why the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because he was doing these things on the Sabbath.
Joh 5:17 But Jesus answered them, “My Father is working until now, and I am working.”
Joh 5:18 This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. (ESV)
The Jews understood full well that Jesus's claim to work on the Sabbath was a claim to deity. He not only claims that God is his Father, but says that he works on the Sabbath because his Father has never ceased working, even on the Sabbath. This is a clear claim of equality with the Father.