Ye must be born again !

[rrowell]

Everyone Christ died for and rose again shall be born again by the Resurrection of Him from the dead 1 Pet 1:3

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Note here I am about to show how the NIV distorts the bible, note in the KJV as you quoted above the preposition "unto" denoting the time and space of the noun, the word "unto" the "un" means it is a time in space not yet come, as in "until" "unto" means we are not there yet...

The NIV 84

Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Now note the improper translation of "εἰς" transliteration "eis" to the word "into" a preposition denoting a time and space already reached...

The ESV Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Now the ESV, though I believe also to play many times with word translation more properly than the NIV translates it to the English preposition "to", also denoting a time and space not yet achieved....

"Born again" is a metaphor used to represent a state of "new life",just like "resurrection" is bringing to "new life", the baptism... coming up out of the water, likened to a resurrection (which is why it requires a burial (submerged in water)), coming up out of the water, cleansed by the blood of Christ will bring us "to" or "unto" a "new life", if you have already done it... a different time and space, it has brought you "into" a new life...

Proper translation is essential!!!

 

[rrowell]

Yes, that is the scripture we are discussing.

What does for flesh gives birth to flesh mean to you.

We welcome your comments.


JLB

What you fail to see in the scripture is that Jesus knew what Nicodemus was thinking, and addressed it... he was contrasting, pointing out a difference, he was rebuking him telling him the "born again" he (Jesus) is talking about is not the same as "born again" in flesh, it is "born again" spiritually... a spiritual cleansing required... one has to come to a "new spiritual life"... unless we do we CANNOT be save or ever see the kingdom...

 

[JLB]

Note here I am about to show how the NIV distorts the bible, note in the KJV as you quoted above the preposition "unto" denoting the time and space of the noun "hope", the word "unto" the "un" means it is a time in space not yet come, as in "until" "unto" means we are not there yet...

Now note the improper translation of "εἰς" transliteration "eis" to the word "into" a preposition denoting a time and space already reached...

Now the ESV, though I believe also to play many times with word translation more properly than the NIV translates it to the English preposition "to", also denoting a time and space not yet achieved....

"Born again" is a metaphor used to represent a state of "new life",just like "resurrection" is bringing to "new life", the baptism... coming up out of the water, likened to a resurrection (which is why it requires a burial (submerged in water)), coming up out of the water, cleansed by the blood of Christ will bring us "to" or "unto" a "new life", if you have already done it... a different time and space, it has brought you "into" a new life...

Proper translation is essential!!!

Please answer my question.

All the lexicon gymnastics in the world will not change the context of these verses.

You brought up the issue of context. Please answer the question.

You cannot only take words out of context, but you also must take the entire bible into context... to read this verse the way you do takes other scripture out of context...

Ok, I am glad you feel that way.

Here we go line upon line.

You and I will agree on the context of the following verses or I will bow out.

3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"

5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'

8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

We have six verses here in Jesus' explanation to Nicodemus.

We have the word born mentioned in every verse!

We do not see the word Baptize mentioned once.

Now before I go any further in this conversation with you, I need to hear from you that the context of this dialog is "birth", whether natural or spiritual, the context of this discussion is "birth".

A. Yes, the context is "birth".

B. No, the context is not "birth".

A. or B.


JLB

 

[rrowell]

Please answer my question.

Here we go line upon line.

You and I will agree on the context of the following verses or I will bow out.

3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

"born again" aka "put on a new life"

4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"

Nicodemus trying as he may to equate the being "born" Jesus is talking about with the fleshly "birth", Jesus seeing this said (your next quote)

5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Jesus above clarifies what he (Jesus) means by "born again", he is saying it is NOT a fleshly birth, he is contrasting what Nicodemus is saying... nipping it at the bud some may say...

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Jesus reiterates... the "born again" that Nicodemus is trying to use is of the flesh, is in complete contrast of the "born again" Jesus is explaining to him...

7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'

Jesus is telling Nicodemus, do not wonder, or place so much emphasis on the words "born again", the emphasis is on "born of spirit"

8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

Jesus reiterates the emphasis of "born of Spirit", being born of flesh can be seen in a physical absolute way, being baptized of water can be seen in a physical absolute way, but the "born of Spirit" comes from God like the wind you see and hear the effect but you cannot see where it comes from... you can be baptized or "born of water" but unless it is done correctly, in the right mind all you did is get wet, "born of Spirit" is a direct consequence of being "born of water" if done in proper mind, it comes from God.

We have six verses here in Jesus' explanation to Nicodemus.

We have the word born mentioned in every verse!

We do not see the word Baptize mentioned once.

"Born" is a metaphor for "life" qualified by "again" making it another time in space from the physical fleshly birth Nicodemus tried to entertain, we must be "born again" to mean a "new life" or put on Christ.

Now before I go any further in this conversation with you, I need to hear from you that the context of this dialog is "birth", whether natural or spiritual, the context of this discussion is "birth".

A. Yes, the context is "birth".

B. No, the context is not "birth".

A. or B.

No, (B), the word is "born", the context is the rest of the text which puts the word "born" into a perspective or in other words defines it.

con·text (k

n

t

kst

)n.1. The part of a text or statement that surrounds a particular word or passage and determines its meaning.
2. The circumstances in which an event occurs; a setting.

 

[savedbygrace57]

rro

Note here I am about to show how the NIV distorts the bible,

I am sure it does in many places, but not in the scripture in question. New Birth comes as a Result of the Resurrection of Christ from the dead !

 

[rrowell]

rro



I am sure it does in many places, but not in the scripture in question. New Birth comes as a Result of the Resurrection of Christ from the dead !

My Friend,
I am not sure if I am understanding you correctly, but if you are saying that because of Jesus Christ and his giving of his life has opened the door, allowing mankind a "hope", has given us the opportunity of salvation if mankind will obey him and ALL of his commands, then I will agree with you, his death on the cross gave man a direction, a path "unto" salvation, but it did not put us "into" salvation, but a way to get there, and without him we have no "hope"

John 14:6 (KJV)
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

 

[JLB]

"born again" aka "put on a new life"

Nicodemus trying as he may to equate the being "born" Jesus is talking about with the fleshly "birth", Jesus seeing this said (your next quote)

Jesus above clarifies what he (Jesus) means by "born again", he is saying it is NOT a fleshly birth, he is contrasting what Nicodemus is saying... nipping it at the bud some may say...

Jesus reiterates... the "born again" that Nicodemus is trying to use is of the flesh, is in complete contrast of the "born again" Jesus is explaining to him...

Jesus is telling Nicodemus, do not wonder, or place so much emphasis on the words "born again", the emphasis is on "born of spirit"

Jesus reiterates the emphasis of "born of Spirit", being born of flesh can be seen in a physical absolute way, being baptized of water can be seen in a physical absolute way, but the "born of Spirit" comes from God like the wind you see and hear the effect but you cannot see where it comes from... you can be baptized or "born of water" but unless it is done correctly, in the right mind all you did is get wet, "born of Spirit" is a direct consequence of being "born of water" if done in proper mind, it comes from God.

"Born" is a metaphor for "life" qualified by "again" making it another time in space from the physical fleshly birth Nicodemus tried to entertain, we must be "born again" to mean a "new life" or put on Christ.

No, (B), the word is "born", the context is the rest of the text which puts the word "born" into a perspective or in other words defines it.

con·text (k

n

t

kst

)n.1. The part of a text or statement that surrounds a particular word or passage and determines its meaning.
2. The circumstances in which an event occurs; a setting.

After all said would you agree the context of Jesus explanation is about being born, whether natural or spiritual, the context is born.

Yes or no

 

[rrowell]

After all said would you agree the context of Jesus explanation is about being born, whether natural or spiritual, the context is born.

Yes or no

After all I posted, and you must not have read it which must be why you don't understand what we are trying to tell you, I answered the question at the end of my post, so here it is again :

"No, (B), the word is "born", the context is the rest of the text which puts the word "born" into a perspective or in other words defines it."

A look at any dictionary worth its weight will tell you what "context" means, it is not the word as in "born" but the rest of the text.
"con·text (k

n

t

kst

)n.
1. The part of a text or statement that surrounds a particular word or passage and determines its meaning.
2. The circumstances in which an event occurs; a setting."

Please, I mean what I say humbly, I don't mean to sound bold, but we must understand how a word can have more than one meaning but the context will define the word...

 

[savedbygrace57]

rr

My Friend,
I am not sure if I am understanding you correctly, but if you
are saying that because of Jesus Christ and his giving of his life has opened
the door, allowing mankind a "hope",

No, that is not what the scripture said. 1 Pet 1:3

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Everyone Christ died for shall be born again because of His Resurrection from the Dead !

 

[rrowell]

rr



No, that is not what the scripture said. 1 Pet 1:3

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Everyone Christ died for shall be born again because of His Resurrection from the Dead !

You use the word "shall" which is not found in the text quoted and changes the entire meaning of the scripture... besides this,

We must remember who Peter is speaking about in vers. 3 of chapter 1, he is speaking about those who had already once been "begotten", and they lost faith when he died, but the key word here is "again", their hope was revived on his resurrection hence peter said he (Christ) "hath begotten us again"

All his disciples had lost faith with his death on the cross, like the two on the road to Emmaus when they commented here:

(Luk 24:21 KJV) But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.

Peter even was ready to go back to his nets... but after the resurrection their faith (including Peters) was restored... they were "Begotten Again".

 

[savedbygrace57]

rr

You use the word "shall"

Of course. Everyone Christ died for were not born as sinners on the same day. When Peter wrote that, it was still centuries to go, and Christ died for people that had not yet been born sinners yet. But they shall be born sinners, and then after words be born again because of Christ Resurrection !

 

[savedbygrace57]

2 Cor 7:9-10

Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.

For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Titus 1:1

Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;

Now Godly Repentance or Sorrow must come from a Godly Source, The New Birth is that source. New Birth is that Sovereign giving of a Godly Principle that disposes one unto actions that are Godly, Holy, and well pleasing unto God by Jesus Christ; Without whom we can do nothing of any Spiritual good ! For faith and repentance are the principle actings of the New Birth, which is a communication of the Life of God in the Soul. If man of the flesh can perform such godly actions, what needs be for the New Birth, the New Heart ? All one has to do is continue in such well doing in the flesh !

 

[rrowell]

rr



Of course. Everyone Christ died for were not born as sinners on the same day. When Peter wrote that, it was still centuries to go, and Christ died for people that had not yet been born sinners yet. But they shall be born sinners, and then after words be born again because of Christ Resurrection !

And what verse did you find that in? because it sure isn't 1 Pet. 1:3?

 

[JLB]

Originally Posted by rrowell
"born again" aka "put on a new life"

Nicodemus trying as he may to equate the being "born" Jesus is talking about with the fleshly "birth", Jesus seeing this said (your next quote)

Jesus above clarifies what he (Jesus) means by "born again", he is saying it is NOT a fleshly birth, he is contrasting what Nicodemus is saying... nipping it at the bud some may say...

Jesus reiterates... the "born again" that Nicodemus is trying to use is of the flesh, is in complete contrast of the "born again" Jesus is explaining to him...

Jesus is telling Nicodemus, do not wonder, or place so much emphasis on the words "born again", the emphasis is on "born of spirit"

Jesus reiterates the emphasis of "born of Spirit", being born of flesh can be seen in a physical absolute way, being baptized of water can be seen in a physical absolute way, but the "born of Spirit" comes from God like the wind you see and hear the effect but you cannot see where it comes from... you can be baptized or "born of water" but unless it is done correctly, in the right mind all you did is get wet, "born of Spirit" is a direct consequence of being "born of water" if done in proper mind, it comes from God.

"Born" is a metaphor for "life" qualified by "again" making it another time in space from the physical fleshly birth Nicodemus tried to entertain, we must be "born again" to mean a "new life" or put on Christ.

No, (B), the word is "born", the context is the rest of the text which puts the word "born" into a perspective or in other words defines it.

con·text (k

n

t

kst

)n.1. The part of a text or statement that surrounds a particular word or passage and determines its meaning.
2. The circumstances in which an event occurs; a setting.

I am not asking you to "comment" on what you "think" these verses mean!

I asked you to either agree or disagree that the context is about "birth", whether spiritual or natural.

3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

4 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"

5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'

8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

We have six verses here in Jesus' explanation to Nicodemus.

We have the word born mentioned in every verse!

Even though Nicodemus asked a question about birth and Jesus answered the question using the word "born" in every verse of His explanation, you still deny the context of the discussion is about birth.

No wonder the word says: Stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry.

 

[savedbygrace57]

And what verse did you find that in? because it sure isn't 1 Pet. 1:3?

I just explained it to you, if you cannot see it, oh well !

 

[rrowell]

I just explained it to you, if you cannot see it, oh well !

That's what I thought, opinion, nothing more, not biblical but man made doctrine...

 

[savedbygrace57]

That's what I thought, opinion, nothing more, not biblical but man made doctrine...

I gave you the word of God !

 

[JLB]

We are born again by the word of God, the Gospel message that we believe!

having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 1 Peter 1:23

We are not born again because we are Baptized, rather we are Baptized because we are born again by believing the Gospel.

We partake in the resurrection because we have been born again!


JLB

 

[savedbygrace57]

We are born again by the word of God, the Gospel message that we believe!

having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, 1 Peter 1:23

We are not born again because we are Baptized, rather we are Baptized because we are born again by believing the Gospel.

We partake in the resurrection because we have been born again!


JLB

Everyone Christ died for is born again by His Resurrection from the Dead 1 Pet 1:3

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Now, hath begotten us again, are the same words for being born again in 1 Pet 1:23

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Who is the Word of God ? It is Christ Himself Rev 19:13

And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.


So, Peter is merely restating what He stated in 1 Pet 1:3. Its by the Word of God's Resurrection we receive New Birth. He is that IncorruptiIncorruptiblereas adam was the corruptible seed !

Anyone Jesus Christ died for, He rose for, and therefore they must be born again through Him ! He is that Incorruptible Seed !

Now, it is those who have been born again 1 Pet 1:3,23 that The Gospel is preached to vs 24-25

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:

25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

So the Word of God the Gospel is Preached to them that were born out of the Word of God the incorruptible seed, Christ !

We partake in the resurrection because we have been born
again!

Thats false and backwards, and contradicts what Peter Just taught in 1 Pet 1:3 that one partakes of the New Birth through and because of the Resurrection !

 

[JLB]

hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Our hope is the resurrection from the dead!

This verse says our hope is the resurrection from the dead, not we are born again by the resurrection from the dead!

13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. 14 And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. 15 Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up--if in fact the dead do not rise. 16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. 17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable. 1 Corinthians 15:13-19

We have the hope of the resurrection from the dead because we are born again!


For though you might have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet you do not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. 1 Corinthians 4:15


We are born again when we repent and believe the gospel message!



JLB