What exactly does Revelation 14 teach?

[Malachi]

In another thread, it has been postulated that the Rapture of the Church is disclosed in this chapter. However, there is not even the remotest possiblity that this is the case.

Revelation chapter fourteen can be broken down into the following sections:
1. Vision of the 144,000 Jews from 12 tribes in Heaven (vv 1-5)
2. Vision of the flying angel with the everlasting Gospel proclamation (vv 6,7)
3. Vision of the proclamation of the fall of Babylon by second angel (v 8)
4. Vision of the doom of Beast worshippers by the third angel (vv 9-12)
5. Pronouncement of the blessedness of saints which will die in the future (v 13)
6. Vision of those on earth to be subject to the wrath of God (vv 14-20)

We can consider this further verse by verse if necessary. However, to postulate a Rapture within these sections is to do grave violence to Scripture.

 

[Gregg]

"grave" violence - That's a good pun!

2 reapings are noted in Rev 14, one in Rev 14:15-16, and a second in Rev 14:17-20. There are at least a couple of differences in these two separate events:

- the first reaping is "over [epi] the earth" Rev 14:16; where the second reaping is "into [eis] the earth" Rev 14:19. I think that "over" in the first reaping matches up to the Church meeting the LORD in the air (1Thes 4:16-17) - over the earth in the air; where "into" seems to match up with what is taken from the surface of the earth - so the sickle goes into the earth where the grape vines are reaped and trodden down.
- Jesus holds the sickle and He reaps; afterwards, in the second event an angel holds another sickle and the angel reaps. The Rapture occurs before God's wrath.
- What is reaped in the first event is not spoken of as wheat, or grapes, or having to do with wrath; but the second reaping is described using vine, winepress, and wrath.
​

Does anyone else see this as two separate events, or two phases of one event?

 

[for_his_glory]

Yes Gregg they are two different events. If you read vs.15 the harvest is ripe, meaning it is now time to send the angels down to gather the Bride as we who are alive do not proceed those who are in the grave as they will rise first and we who are alive will meet them in the air as we are changed into our glorious bodies that we be like Christ in His. From vs. 17-20 we see the angel cast in his sickle to gather the vine of the earth and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God and then in Chapter 15 we see the wrath of God on the unjust as in the tares/goats that have now been separated from the wheat and now stand in Gods vial judgment wrath.

I really do not see how people do not get this to be Christ second coming!

 

[Malachi]

"What is reaped in the first event is not spoken of as wheat, or grapes, or having to do with wrath; but the second reaping is described using vine, winepress, and wrath.

Gregg,

What you have stated above is correct and certainly does not speak of the Rapture of the Church. Matthew Henry (see BibleStudyTools.com), who is well respected by Christians of all persuasions, and who did not believe in a pre-tribulational Rapture, says basically the same thing -- everything here pertains to God's judgments and God's wrath. He does insert some of his own thoughts regarding Babylon but that does not affect his interpretation :

We have the vision itself, represented by a harvest and a vintage.1. By a harvest (v. 14, v. 15), an emblem that sometimes signifies the cutting down of the wicked, when ripe for ruin, by the judgments of God, and sometimes the gathering in of the righteous, when ripe for heaven, by the mercy of God. This seems rather to represent God’s judgments against the wicked: and here observe,

(1.) The Lord of the harvest—one so like unto the Son of man that he was the same, even the Lord Jesus, who is described, [1.] By the chariot in which he sat—a white cloud, a cloud that had a bright side turned to the church, how dark soever it might be to the wicked. [2.] By the ensign of his power: On his head was a golden crown, authority to do all that he did and whatsoever he would do. [3.] By the instrument of his providences: In his hand a sharp sickle. [4.] By the solicitations he had from the temple to perform this great work. What he did, he was desired to do by his people; and, though he was resolved to do it, he would for this thing be sought unto by them, and so it should be in return to their prayers.

(2.) The harvest-work, which is, to thrust the sickle into the corn, and reap the field. The sickle is the sword of God’s justice; the field is the world; reaping is cutting the inhabitants of the earth down and carrying them off.

(3.) The harvest-time; and this is when the corn is ripe, when the measure of the sin of men is filled up, and they are ripe for destruction. The most inveterate enemies of Christ and his church are not destroyed till by their sin they are ripe for ruin, and then he will spare them no longer; he will thrust in his sickle, and the earth shall be reaped.2. By a vintage, v. 17. Some think that these two are only different emblems of the same judgment; others that they refer to distinct events of providence before the end of all things.

Observe, (1.) To whom this vintage-work was committed—to an angel, another angel that came out from the altar, that is, from the holiest of all in heaven. (2.) At whose request this vintage-work was undertaken: it was, as before, at the cry of an angel out of the temple, the ministers and churches of God on earth. (3.) The work of the vintage, which consists of two parts:—[1.] The cutting off, and gathering, the clusters of the vine, which were now ripe and ready, fully ripe, v. 18. [2.] Casting these grapes into the wine-press (v. 19); here we are told, First, What was the wine-press: it was the wrath of God, the fire of his indignation, some terrible calamity, very probably the sword, shedding the blood of the wicked.

Secondly, Where was the place of the wine-press—without the city, where the army lay that came against Babylon. Thirdly, The quantity of the wine, that is, of the blood that was drawn forth by this judgment: it was, for depth, up to the horses’ bridles, and, for breadth and length, a thousand and six hundred furlongs (v. 20); that is, say some, 200 Italian miles, which is thought to be the measure of the holy land, and may be meant of the patrimony of the holy see, encompassing the city of Rome. But here we are left of doubtful conjectures. Perhaps this great event has not yet had its accomplishment, but the vision is for an appointed time; and therefore, though it may seem to tarry, we are to wait for it. But who shall live when the Lord does this?

 

[Malachi]

If you read vs.15 the harvest is ripe, meaning it is now time to send the angels down to gather the Bride as we who are alive do not proceed those who are in the grave as they will rise first and we who are alive will meet them in the air as we are changed into our glorious bodies that we be like Christ in His.

for_his_glory,

This is all pure conjecture on your part. Verse 15 gives the general statement about the judgments on the earth, and the details are given in the following verses. I hope you will take the time to read what Matthew Henry says above, and accept the fact that you are simply not rightly dividing th Word of Truth.

 

[Gregg]

Gregg,

What you have stated above is correct and certainly does not speak of the Rapture of the Church. Matthew Henry (see BibleStudyTools.com), who is well respected by Christians of all persuasions, and who did not believe in a pre-tribulational Rapture, says basically the same thing -- everything here pertains to God's judgments and God's wrath. He does insert some of his own thoughts regarding Babylon but that does not affect his interpretation :

What I stated regarding Rev 14:14-16 supports the Rapture. Christ is seen in the clouds, of which Luke (Lk 21:27) and Matthew (Mt 24:30, 26:67) spoke. It was Christ's hour to reap, because His harvest was ripe. His harvest is the wheat spoken of in Mat 13:30, and referred to as a dried crop to be harvested in Rev 14:15. A wheat crop, Christ's harvest, is not ready to be reaped until it is dried. Dried [ξηραίνω in Rev 14:15] refers to a grain harvest, which is different from a grape harvest [the second reaping]. In the second reaping, the angels in Rev 14:17-19 are the reapers (Mat 13:39) of the vine, who are gathered into the wine vat of the wrath of God (Rev 14:19-20).

I do not write these things to persuade you, but because I see them this way. And I would only ask that study these verses carefully, and perhaps you will begin to see the distinctions that I am referring to.

On your references to theologians and their viewpoints of the Rapture, I can only say that many well respected theologians differ greatly on these matters. I have a book by Charles Criswell on the Revelation. He understood much theology, but little about the timing of Christ's Second Coming. I keep his book on my shelves for its monetary value only. I respect Matthew Henry, although he misses this one if he advocates everything in Rev 14 regards God's wrath.

Someone wrote in another forum that all of Rev chapters 6 to 19 had to do with God's wrath. I pointed out one detail [of which there are many more] from each of those chapters that dealt directly with the Church and gave a brief explanation, yet that list went unanswered. Your OP here makes some statements, but I have yet to see or read any Scriptural support of those claims - just your opinion of what they may refer to.

 

[Gregg]

for_his_glory,

This is all pure conjecture on your part. Verse 15 gives the general statement about the judgments on the earth, and the details are given in the following verses. I hope you will take the time to read what Matthew Henry says above, and accept the fact that you are simply not rightly dividing th Word of Truth.

You are speaking of another's conjecture, yet you do not give a supporting reason as to why you view these things the way you do. Though I must say, I have read some great apologies and arguments from you in these forums. As I know you are able, please support your claims here with other texts or adjacent Scripture, along with your reasoning.

 

[Malachi]

What I stated regarding Rev 14:14-16 supports the Rapture.

Show us the word "Church" or "wheat harvest" in Revelation anywhere from Ch 6 to Ch 19, and then there might be a reason to consider your view seriously. This is pure guesswork, and if you do not wish to seriously consider what Henry says (which is simply explicating what is already there in a very clear manner) then you have already closed your mind regardless of any evidence.

 

[for_his_glory]

Gregg,

What you have stated above is correct and certainly does not speak of the Rapture of the Church. Matthew Henry (see BibleStudyTools.com), who is well respected by Christians of all persuasions, and who did not believe in a pre-tribulational Rapture, says basically the same thing -- everything here pertains to God's judgments and God's wrath. He does insert some of his own thoughts regarding Babylon but that does not affect his interpretation :

I thought you told me all your knowledge came straight from scripture, but now you are quoting another's mans thoughts as what he perceives scripture to say, but yet only his thoughts, now who's part is conjecture! Please be careful for things like this as it can discredit ones argument as what they are trying to bring across as truth. I use no mans commentaries as that is just what they are, there commentary with out all the facts. It doesn't matter how well a man is respected by his piers as even God is no respecter of person.

Matthew 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

 

[Gregg]

Show us the word "Church" or "wheat harvest" in Revelation anywhere from Ch 6 to Ch 19, and then there might be a reason to consider your view seriously. This is pure guesswork, and if you do not wish to seriously consider what Henry says (which is simply explicating what is already there in a very clear manner) then you have already closed your mind regardless of any evidence.

You keep saying that, but have yet to offer proof supporting a pre-trib Rapture. Read my posts. I am careful to say 'I think" this or that; but along with it I am offering some form of explanation. Where are your explanation of your view?

The word "Church" may not be in these verses, but the word "saints" is there plenty of times; referring to the dead in Christ and to those who are alive in Christ at His Second Coming. The following is much of what I posted in another forum that you have not answered. I have bolded references to the Church [the saints, His witnesses, His people]:

- Rev 6:9 regards martyred saints, to which other martyred saints are added, "the number of their fellow-slaves and their brothers" (Rev 6:11).
- Rev 7:14 mentions saints who come out of the tribulation, "These are those coming out of the great tribulation".
- Rev 8:3 "that he give them with the prayers of all the saints"; all would seem to include those with Christ in heaven and those saints living on the earth. Therefore a portion of Rev 8 regards the saints, whether they have passed, or whether they are alive here; and not all of it regards the wrath of God.
- Rev 9:4 infers that there are men living in the earth who have the seal of God, distinguished from those who don't have His seal "except only the men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads." A portion of Rev 9 regards the saints, those having the seal of God on their foreheads; and not the wrath of God.
- Rev 11:4 "These are the two olive trees, and the two lampstands, standing before the God of the earth. These witnesses are Christians, who are raptured (Rev 11:12).
- Rev 12:5 and Rev 12:17 describes the saints who are born of the faithful woman, the Church; "And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony. And they did not love their soul even until death" (Rev 12:11). In that the rapture occurs at the end of the Trib, these who have died here in Rev 12:11 before the rapture would be saints. Therefore a portion of Rev 12 regards the saints.
- Rev 13:7 "And it was given to it to war with the saints, and to overcome them. And authority was given to it over every tribe and tongue and nation."
- Rev 14:12 "Here is the patience of the saints; here are the ones keeping the commands of God, and the faith of Jesus." Again, a scripture to the saints living ion earth during this time frame described in Rev 14; therefore a portion of Rev 14 regards the saints, and not only the wrath of God.
- Rev 16:15 "Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is the one watching and keeping his garments, that he does not walk naked, and they may see his shame." Perhaps a reference to Christians and those who will come to know Him during the Trib.
- Rev 18:4 "And I heard another voice out of Heaven saying, My people, come out of her, that you may not share in her sins, and that you may not receive of her plagues;" Did I miss another reference to the rapture, or is this a general calling towards God's people to seperate themselves from fellowship with the whore or Babylon?
- Rev 18:23 "And the light of a lamp will never more shine in you. And the voice of the bridegroom and bride will never more be heard in you. For your merchants were the great ones of the earth, for by your sorcery all the nations were misled." Never more after the saints are raptured up to meet Christ in the air, but yes, before that the saints will be heard during the Tribulation.
Surely "My people" and the "bride" refer to the saints. Yes, again, another chapter of the Revelation from ch's 6-19 which do so wonderfully regard the saints; as not all portions of ch's 6-19 have to do with the wrath of God.

No grave violence to the Scriptures here!

 

[Malachi]

We don't need to depend on any commentary to understand what is revealed in Revelation 14. That was simply to help you understand that the plain literal interpretation of this passage does not even connect remotely to the Rapture, and here is someone whose commentary is on Bible Study Tools. The main point is that this passage is see as a description of God's judgments and God's wrath.

You will notice in Matthew 13:30 that (1) the Lord is alluding to a WHEAT HARVEST, (2) "tares" look almost like wheat, so they are "counterfeit wheat", and (3) the tares are FIRST gathered up and burned, following which the wheat harvest is harvested.

Now when you look at Rev 14:14-20 there is absolutely no mention of wheat or tares, but of (1) a VINE , (2) CLUSTERS of the vine, (3) GRAPES, and (4) a WINEPRESS. There is absolutely no relationship between a wheat harvest and a grape harvest, and even though both are metaphorical, there must be a correspondence.

So let's look at this passage line by line:
v. 14 -- possibly Christ with a sharp sickle in His hand
v. 15 -- an angel announcing the time of the harvest
v. 16 -- the beginning of the reaping of the harvest
v. 17 -- another angel with a sickle
v. 18 -- another angel angel "out of the altar" urging the harvest of "grapes"
v. 19 -- the "vine of the earth" gathered and cast into the "winepress" of THE WRATH OF GOD
v. 20 -- a huge volume of blood coming out of the "winepress", even as much as to the height of horses bridles.

The entire passage is devoted to the destruction of those against whom the wrath of God is poured out. They are described as "the vine of THE EARTH" because they do not belong in heaven. So how can anyone possibly connect this awful destruction to the Rapture? Simply superimposing our preconceived notions on Scripture does not make it so. It's time to give up this "strange doctrine".

 

[Malachi]

You keep saying that, but have yet to offer proof supporting a pre-trib Rapture. Read my posts. I am careful to say 'I think" this or that; but along with it I am offering some form of explanation. Where are your explanation of your view?

Let's just focus on Rev 14:14-20 since that is the focus of the thread. As noted in my post #11, it is impossible to bring the Rapture into this scene. Once you agree that that is really the case, we can deal with other interpretations. I believe it will benefit all who read this thread to abandon any connection of the Rapture with what is clearly a description of God's wrath in this chapter.

 

[Gregg]

Now when you look at Rev 14:14-20 there is absolutely no mention of wheat or tares, but of (1) a VINE , (2) CLUSTERS of the vine, (3) GRAPES, and (4) a WINEPRESS. There is absolutely no relationship between a wheat harvest and a grape harvest, and even though both are metaphorical, there must be a correspondence.

I am drawing [and have drawn] a distinction between the wheat harvest and the grape harvest. They are not the same, and I have not said otherwise.

I am not up the tree you are barking at. Please actually read what I have posted.

 

[Gregg]

Let's just focus on Rev 14:14-20 since that is the focus of the thread. As noted in my post #11, it is impossible to bring the Rapture into this scene. Once you agree that that is really the case, we can deal with other interpretations. I believe it will benefit all who read this thread to abandon any connection of the Rapture with what is clearly a description of God's wrath in this chapter.

I have brought the Rapture into the context of Rev 14 in my post #6, with supporting Scripture and my understanding of it. Now . . . you may refute what I have said with Scriptures and your reasoning. You say "Its impossible . . ." Now, begin the proof that it is impossible to associate the Rapture with Rev 14.

 

[for_his_glory]

Rapture is explained in these verses if you read them for what they say. Parentheses are added by myself as they are not part of the scripture, but shows that Rev 14:11-20 is the Rapture of Gods Church, which is the body of Christ as in saint and harvest.

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: (henceforth which means after the persecution to death as they did not take the mark of the beast) Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man (Jesus), having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. (the harvest are Gods people as in being the Bride of Christ)
Rev 14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. (A farmer reaps the good crops and lays waste those that are not good. If you are from farm country like me you can see that in the fields as the bad crops are plowed under and destroyed as the ground is fertilized for new summer seeds)
Rev 14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.(Grapes are not gathered as wheat is here as the grapes are put into the winepress of Gods wrath)
Rev 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Rev 14:20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Comparing Rev 14 with Matthew 13 we see a clear distinction between the wheat and the tares. Wheat (body of Christ) is the good crop and the tares which means weeds are the unjust that will be gathered into the great winepress of Gods wrath.

Mat_13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
Mat_13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
Mat_13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
Mat_13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Mat_13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Mat_13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
Mat_13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Mat_13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

 

[Malachi]

I am drawing [and have drawn] a distinction between the wheat harvest and the grape harvest. They are not the same, and I have not said otherwise.

I am not up the tree you are barking at. Please actually read what I have posted.

The reality is that there is no mention of a wheat harvest in Rev 14. Try as you might, all you will find is a grape harvest -- "the grapes of wrath".

 

[Malachi]

Now, begin the proof that it is impossible to associate the Rapture with Rev 14.

FOR BELIEVERS
1 Thess 5:9,10
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

FOR UNBELIEVERS
Romans 1:18
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Revelation 14:9,10
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Revelation 14:19
And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

So unless one can shown that there is "wheat" or "salvation" or "deliverance" or a "catching up into Heaven" or even "saints" in Revelation 14, it is impossible to associate this chapter with the Rapture. The 144,000 redeemed Jews from the 12 tribes of Israel are not the Church (which cannot be numbered by humans), and "rest from their labours" (v.13) is the opposite of "rising to meet the Lord in the air". God does not make things difficult to understand.

 

[for_his_glory]

FOR BELIEVERS
1 Thess 5:9,10
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

FOR UNBELIEVERS
Romans 1:18
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Revelation 14:9,10
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Revelation 14:19
And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

So unless one can shown that there is "wheat" or "salvation" or "deliverance" or a "catching up into Heaven" or even "saints" in Revelation 14, it is impossible to associate this chapter with the Rapture. The 144,000 redeemed Jews from the 12 tribes of Israel are not the Church (which cannot be numbered by humans), and "rest from their labours" (v.13) is the opposite of "rising to meet the Lord in the air". God does not make things difficult to understand.

It's called cross referencing as in post #15 as we compare scripture with scripture. Couldn't be any greater proof than that of what I posted there as scripture speaks for itself

 

[for_his_glory]

BTW, no one ever said we would face Gods wrath if we are in Christ and He in us, but are sealed/protected from Gods wrath as we continue to preach the word until the end as in Matthew 24:14.

 

[Malachi]

The following is much of what I posted in another forum that you have not answered. I have bolded references to the Church [the saints, His witnesses, His people]:

Let's take these Scriptures individually and see what they pertain to:

- Rev 6:9 regards martyred saints, to which other martyred saints are added, "the number of their fellow-slaves and their brothers" (Rev 6:11).

Rev 6:9 says "And when He had opened the sixth seal" and verses 12-17 describe "the great and notable Day of the LORD (Acts 2:19,20) where the moon is turned into blood. So the next question is, do verses 9-11 speak of the Church or some other group? If it is the Church, then the Bible is teaching that the whole Church will be martyred during the Day of the Lord. Nowhere in the NT will you find any such teaching. Therefore this is a different group of saints (and we will leave it at that).

- Rev 7:14 mentions saints who come out of the tribulation, "These are those coming out of the great tribulation".

Rev 7:9 tells us that this group of saints are "a great multitude which no man can number" and "they stood before the throne and before the Lamb". Therefore these saints are already in Heaven after the 6th seal has been opened, and because they cannot be numbered (by humans) they are indeed the Church. But you will say (Rev 7:14) that "These are they which came out of great tribulation" [Gk ἐρχόμενοι ἐκ τῆς θλίψεως τῆς μεγάλης = "[literally] come out of the tribulation, the great (one)]" so that must mean that the entire Church goes through the Great Tribulation.

However it is one thing to "go through the Great Tribulation" (which means being subjected to it) and another thing to "come out of the Great Tribulation" (which means to be unscathed, just as Noah was unscathed during the Flood). So this is definitely (1) the Church, (2) not on earth but in Heaven, and (3) not having been subject to the Great Tribulation. For these saints, the Rapture had already occurred between Rev 3:22 and Rev 7:8. That's why many Christians hold to a pre-tribulation Rapture. The Church is absent from the earth between Rev 4 and Rev 19.

- Rev 8:3 "that he give them with the prayers of all the saints"; all would seem to include those with Christ in heaven and those saints living on the earth. Therefore a portion of Rev 8 regards the saints, whether they have passed, or whether they are alive here; and not all of it regards the wrath of God.

Rev 8:3 and is connected with the judgments of God in verses 7-13, so in context we are still within the period of God's wrath. Indeed the 7th seal (Rev 8:1) pertains to the most serious judgments of God. Certainly no connection to the Rapture of the Church.

- Rev 9:4 infers that there are men living in the earth who have the seal of God, distinguished from those who don't have His seal "except only the men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads." A portion of Rev 9 regards the saints, those having the seal of God on their foreheads; and not the wrath of God.

During the 7th seal period, there will be a believing Jewish remnant on earth (Rev 12:14,17). These will have the seal of God on their foreheads. Again, not a reference to the Church which is already in Heaven.

- Rev 11:4 "These are the two olive trees, and the two lampstands, standing before the God of the earth. These witnesses are Christians, who are raptured (Rev 11:12).

If you go through the entire chapter, it will be evident that these are two prophets of God (more than likely Moses and Elijah) who speak out (are witnesses) during the reign of the Antichrist (Rev 11:7) and are killed by him, and are then resurrected by God, and ascend up into Heaven. "My TWO witnesses" (v.3) have power to do miracles corresponding to those of Moses and Elijah, but they are certainly not the Church per se.

- Rev 12:5 and Rev 12:17 describes the saints who are born of the faithful woman, the Church; "And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony. And they did not love their soul even until death" (Rev 12:11). In that the rapture occurs at the end of the Trib, these who have died here in Rev 12:11 before the rapture would be saints. Therefore a portion of Rev 12 regards the saints.

The woman in this chapter symbolizes Israel, since Israel brought forth the Messiah ("brought forth a man child") who will rule all nations with a rod of iron. "The remnant of her seed" (v. 17) represents the believing Jewish remnant during the reign of the Antichrist. The Church was born out of the "side" of Christ (from which flowed blood and water), just as Eve was created out of the side of Adam. Therefore it is impossible that this woman is the Church. And for the believing remnant of Israel, the blood of the Lamb and the Word of His testimony are the same as for Christians. But these are all martyrs since "they loved not their lives unto the death".

- Rev 13:7 "And it was given to it to war with the saints, and to overcome them. And authority was given to it over every tribe and tongue and nation."

These are the Tribulation saints, possibly the same as the believing Jewish remnant. And indeed, Satan is given authority for a a season over the whole world during that time. No connection to the Church, which as you saw was already in Heaven back in chapter 7.

- Rev 14:12 "Here is the patience of the saints; here are the ones keeping the commands of God, and the faith of Jesus." Again, a scripture to the saints living ion earth during this time frame described in Rev 14; therefore a portion of Rev 14 regards the saints, and not only the wrath of God.

Once again, we have the Tribulation saints who do not take the mark of the Beast and are therefore martyred.

- Rev 16:15 "Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is the one watching and keeping his garments, that he does not walk naked, and they may see his shame." Perhaps a reference to Christians and those who will come to know Him during the Trib.

The connection with Armageddon in the next verse makes it clear that these would be the Tribulations saints.

- Rev 18:4 "And I heard another voice out of Heaven saying, My people, come out of her, that you may not share in her sins, and that you may not receive of her plagues;" Did I miss another reference to the rapture, or is this a general calling towards God's people to seperate themselves from fellowship with the whore or Babylon?

This is a general call to God's people because spiritual Babylon has been in existence since Babel. There is here an announcement of her doom. Geo-political Babylon will be in existence when these judgments are executed. Indeed, "Babylon" stands for all that is against Christ, which is the kingdom of Satan on earth, which is also called "the world".

- Rev 18:23 "And the light of a lamp will never more shine in you. And the voice of the bridegroom and bride will never more be heard in you. For your merchants were the great ones of the earth, for by your sorcery all the nations were misled." Never more after the saints are raptured up to meet Christ in the air, but yes, before that the saints will be heard during the Tribulation. Surely "My people" and the "bride" refer to the saints. Yes, again, another chapter of the Revelation from ch's 6-19 which do so wonderfully regard the saints; as not all portions of ch's 6-19 have to do with the wrath of God.

The plain reading of verse 23 would be that there will no longer be any marriage ceremonies in Babylon once it is judged. No connetion with the Church, the Bride of Christ, which is already in Heaven, and becomes the "wife of the Lamb" (Rev 19:7) even while these judgments occur on the earth,