OSAS The Truth

[FreeGrace]

You have to "do" the will of the Father. Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Correct. What do you think the "doing" refers to? Works? No, believe in Christ.

Jn 6:40 - “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

Acts 16:30 - and after he brought them out, he (jailer) said, “Sirs, what must I DO to be saved?”

The only thing that one can do to be saved is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for eternal life.

You seem to think that grace doesn't have works accompanied with it? Am I wrong in thinking this?

You are correct in your opinion of what I think. Where do you get the idea that "grace has works accompanied with it"?

Grace is God's policy towards mankind. It means unmerited favor. Do you understand the meaning of "unmerited"?

Works are supposed to flow out of gratitude to God for His grace to us. Do you agree or disagree?

 

[FreeGrace]

How about those who believe in Him, then stop believing in Him and turn away from Him.

There is a sin that leads to death. 1 Jn 5:16 Death here refers to physical death, as illustrated by numerous examples in Scripture: 1 Cor 10 and the Exodus generation, who "fell in the desert" during their 40 year hike, 1 Cor 11:30 and believers who were abusing the Lord's table, Acts 5 and the couple who lied to the Holy Spirit, and King Saul for going to a medium in 1 Chron 10:13-14: 13So Saul died for his trespass which he committed against theLORD, because of the word of the LORD which he did not keep; and also because he asked counsel of a medium, making inquiry of it, 14and did not inquire of the LORD. Therefore He killed him and turned the kingdom to David the son of Jesse.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen.

True.

No faith - no substance of the thing hoped for [salvation].

However, once faith, always saved. Why? Because God's gift of eternal life (Rom 6:23) is irrevocable (Rom 11:29).

Irrefutable.

 

[FreeGrace]

You can chose to mock, or to make up unbiblical scenarios, but what the word says is -

So far, you have continued to totally ignore what Paul says about God's gifts. First, eternal life is a gift from God (Rom 6:23), AND, it is irrevocable (11:29).

Why do you selectively pick and choose what you want to accept?

Matthew -
But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.

Nothing here about loss of salvation. Loss of faith is the subject.

and again -

Luke -
But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away.

Ditto here.

These were persecuted, and turned away, departed or renounced there belief or faith.

Yep.

In essence they became unbelievers.

It doesn't matter what you call it, once God gives the gift of eternal life, that gift is IRREVOCABLE. Why do you ignore this?

 

[JLB]

Freegrace said -

There is a sin that leads to death. 1 Jn 5:16 Death here refers to physical death, as illustrated by numerous examples in Scripture: 1 Cor 10 and the Exodus generation, who "fell in the desert" during their 40 year hike, 1 Cor 11:30 and believers who were abusing the Lord's table, Acts 5 and the couple who lied to the Holy Spirit, and King Saul for going to a medium in 1 Chron 10:13-14: 13So Saul died for his trespass which he committed against theLORD, because of the word of the LORD which he did not keep; and also because he asked counsel of a medium, making inquiry of it, 14and did not inquire of the LORD. Therefore He killed him and turned the kingdom to David the son of Jesse.

10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God. 14 Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15 And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him. 16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death. 1 John 5:10-17

There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that.

The context of verse 16 is eternal death, that there is no forgiveness for, which is Blasphemy of the Spirit. About this sin, there is no need to pray and ash forgiveness for, because there will be no forgiveness in this age nor in the age to come.

Everyone will die physically.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Freegrace said -

It doesn't matter what you call it, once God gives the gift of eternal life, that gift is IRREVOCABLE. Why do you ignore this?

11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord. 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. 13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!
16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19 I speak in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness. 20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 What fruit did you have then in the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:16-23


Paul admonishes to so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness.

Paul warns us not to present ourselves as a slave of sin, which leads to death. Eternal death.


The wages of sin is death. Eternal death.

The gift of God, His grace to us, is eternal life.


For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

We are told to choose not to present ourselves as slaves of sin,


Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?


Written in plain black and white, clear and plain for us to choose, sin leading to death, or obedience leading to righteousness.

God grants to us salvation based on our believing, if we continue to believe...

God grants us the gift of grace, our part is to have faith and believe.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Ephesians 2:8

and again -

But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man's offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. Romans 5:15


Please show the scripture that states the gift of eternal life is irrevocable.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God. 14 Now this is the confidence that we have in Him, that if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. 15 And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him. 16 If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death. 1 John 5:10-17

There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that.

The context of verse 16 is eternal death, that there is no forgiveness for, which is Blasphemy of the Spirit.

You have not proven your opinion about this verse. I gave examples from Scripture about believers who physically died for their sins. THAT is the "sin unto death". It's not about any specific sin, but ongoing rebellion against God.

About this sin, there is no need to pray and ash forgiveness for, because there will be no forgiveness in this age nor in the age to come.

You're just making this up.

Everyone will die physically.

Not from the disciplining hand of God!! Only those rebellious children of God.


btw, your bringing in the "blasphemy of the Spirit"; that has absolutely nothing to do with 1 Jn 5:16. The context for such blasphemy was Jews during Jesus' time on earth who attributed Jesus' miracles to demon possession.

It's always wise to check context before quoting a verse that one thinks supports their view. In this case, it doesn't support your view.

And what are you going to do with the fact that God's gift of eternal life is irrevocable?

 

[FreeGrace]

Please show the scripture that states the gift of eternal life is irrevocable.

Seriously? Where have you been in the past month or so? I've proven this fact repeatedly.

Paul defined both (imputed) righteousness (Romans 5:15,17) and eternal life (Romans 6:23) as gifts. And Jesus said that He gives eternal life in Jn 10:28 and John wrote that God gives eternal life in 1 Jn 5:11. With me so far?

After defining what gifts refer to in Romans, Paul then writes that God's gifts and calling are irrevocable in Rom 11:29.

It is clear that 11:29 is in context with 5:15,17 and 6:23.

So, Scripture that states that eternal life is irrevocable is Rom 11:29. For all the reasons above.

If you disagree and want to refute any of this, you need to explain HOW Rom 5:15,17 and 6:23 cannot refer to 11:29, along with Jn 10:28 and 1 Jn 5:11.

But, thanks for finally wanting to know where the Scripture tells us that God's gifts (imputed righteousness and eternal life) are irrevocable.

 

[Gregg]

Paul defined both (imputed) righteousness (Romans 5:15,17) and eternal life (Romans 6:23) as gifts. And Jesus said that He gives eternal life in Jn 10:28 and John wrote that God gives eternal life in 1 Jn 5:11. With me so far?

FreeGrace,

It is as if the word 'eternal' appeared as white space in the minds of the non-OSAS crowd.

Jesus gave us life, which has the attribute of 'eternal.' That is the character, duration, and nature of the 'life' that God gave; it is eternal life, life without end.

This eternal life is not sporadic life, or temporary life, or life based upon the faculties of a man; but it is eternal life. It is a gift, a gift of God by His grace, an irrevocable gift of God.

About this eternal life that God gave to us in His Son, John says a fearful thing in 1Jn 5:11, "And this is the witness . . ." What is the motivation to not believe His witness, to call God a liar by saying that this life in Christ is not eternal.

- To say that this life can somehow end is to challenge God's witness. A life that can end was never eternal life.
- To say that this life is not in His Son is to challenge the truth of God. If it is in His Son, it is not in/of one's self.​

- - -

I thank you for your witness here. It is encouraging and refreshing.

 

[JLB]

Seriously? Where have you been in the past month or so? I've proven this fact repeatedly.

Paul defined both (imputed) righteousness (Romans 5:15,17) and eternal life (Romans 6:23) as gifts. And Jesus said that He gives eternal life in Jn 10:28 and John wrote that God gives eternal life in 1 Jn 5:11. With me so far?

After defining what gifts refer to in Romans, Paul then writes that God's gifts and calling are irrevocable in Rom 11:29.

It is clear that 11:29 is in context with 5:15,17 and 6:23.

So, Scripture that states that eternal life is irrevocable is Rom 11:29. For all the reasons above.

If you disagree and want to refute any of this, you need to explain HOW Rom 5:15,17 and 6:23 cannot refer to 11:29, along with Jn 10:28 and 1 Jn 5:11.

But, thanks for finally wanting to know where the Scripture tells us that God's gifts (imputed righteousness and eternal life) are irrevocable.

29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29


Is this the scripture that you believe that teaches us eternal life is irrevocable?


If so, that would mean that every single Natural Israelite are saved.


LOL!!! That's very funny.


JLB

 

[JLB]

FreeGrace,

It is as if the word 'eternal' appeared as white space in the minds of the non-OSAS crowd.

Jesus gave us life, which has the attribute of 'eternal.' That is the character, duration, and nature of the 'life' that God gave; it is eternal life, life without end.

This eternal life is not sporadic life, or temporary life, or life based upon the faculties of a man; but it is eternal life. It is a gift, a gift of God by His grace, an irrevocable gift of God.

About this eternal life that God gave to us in His Son, John says a fearful thing in 1Jn 5:11, "And this is the witness . . ." What is the motivation to not believe His witness, to call God a liar by saying that this life in Christ is not eternal.

- To say that this life can somehow end is to challenge God's witness. A life that can end was never eternal life.
- To say that this life is not in His Son is to challenge the truth of God. If it is in His Son, it is not in/of one's self.​

- - -

I thank you for your witness here. It is encouraging and refreshing.

It's interesting to note that the same folks who say "eternal life is life without end", also say eternal punishment in the eternal fires of hell, doesn't mean forever.


The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Revelation 20:10


Those people who reject the Gospel will be tormented day and night forever and ever, right.



And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. John 17:3


Knowing God is eternal life.

If a person believes for a while, and departs from the Living God, they no longer know God.

As long as we continue to believe and turn to Him when we stumble and fall, He will never leave us, and no one can snatch us from His hand.


The scriptures present a balance of Truth, both encouragement and admonition.


21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. Romans 11:21-22



JLB

 

[gr8grace3]

Titus 1:2~~New American Standard Bible
in the hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised long ages ago,

John 14:27~~New American Standard Bible
"Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Do not let your heart be troubled, nor let it be fearful.

FreeGrace,

It is as if the word 'eternal' appeared as white space in the minds of the non-OSAS crowd.

Jesus gave us life, which has the attribute of 'eternal.' That is the character, duration, and nature of the 'life' that God gave; it is eternal life, life without end.

This eternal life is not sporadic life, or temporary life, or life based upon the faculties of a man; but it is eternal life. It is a gift, a gift of God by His grace, an irrevocable gift of God.

About this eternal life that God gave to us in His Son, John says a fearful thing in 1Jn 5:11, "And this is the witness . . ." What is the motivation to not believe His witness, to call God a liar by saying that this life in Christ is not eternal.

- To say that this life can somehow end is to challenge God's witness. A life that can end was never eternal life.
- To say that this life is not in His Son is to challenge the truth of God. If it is in His Son, it is not in/of one's self.​

- - -

I thank you for your witness here. It is encouraging and refreshing.

Ditto!

 

[Gregg]

It's interesting to note that the same folks who say "eternal life is life without end", also say eternal punishment in the eternal fires of hell, doesn't mean forever.

I am one who says 'eternal life is life without end.'

Yet, I am not one who says, 'eternal punishment in the eternal fires of hell, doesn't mean forever.'

Therefore, you have proven your ability:

- to draw incorrect conclusions,
- to note things that are not true,
- to be interested in untrue things,
- to make incorrect associations.​

What you are doing in your statement above, you are also doing with many Scriptures.

And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. John 17:3

Knowing God is eternal life.

Here, you are agreeing with OSAS, in that knowing God is eternal life.

If a person believes for a while, and departs from the Living God, they no longer know God.

You interject the words 'for a while', in that the context of Jn 17:3 does not mention 'for a while.' You are adding to Jesus' statement. You are modifying the words of Jesus.

How can one know God so as to have life that is eternal, and then not know God? When you know someone, then you know that one.

As long as we continue to believe and turn to Him when we stumble and fall, He will never leave us, and no one can snatch us from His hand.

You are adding the words 'as long as we', and by doing so you make yourself to be an agent [at least a co-agent] of your salvation. But if you are an agent of your salvation, then that salvation was not:

1). of God's grace, nor
2). of God alone.​

That is not the salvation spoken of by God, or witnessed by Christ and His Apostles. You are speaking of another salvation contrary to Scripture.

The scriptures present a balance of Truth, both encouragement and admonition.

There is no balance of truth. The truth remains the same despite a need for encouragement or for admonition.

However, truth can be mis-characterized or added to; which amounts to a false witness; it amounts to a lie. And a lie is not of God. This is true and is of God, the life that God gives is eternal. This life is in His Son. "And we know that the Son of God has come, and He has given to us an understanding that we may know the true One, and we are in the true One, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and the life everlasting" (1Jn 5:20 LITV).

 

[Chopper]

Thanks for your answer Chopper. I understand what you teach, and no, I don't agree because I see all the saved as the elect, and I believe this is the remnant, the road is narrow and few will find it.

I could be mistaken but I don't think he believes as you, which doesn't really make a difference, however, unless I am mistaken, doesn't a 5 point Calvinist believe the saved are the elect? There are not 2 groups? Is this correct?

How do you deal with the children who die and are not of the elect?

Also, how do you deal with the scripture that says God does not show partiality, He has no favorites?

Thanks.

Hi Jesse, thank you for your mature response. Calvin had only one theory of those who will be saved in the end. Those were the elect, period. For everyone else, he believes that God has not called to Salvation. In other words, God elects some to be saved and all others He does not call, only the elect. As for all believers being referred to as elect? No. God chooses the elect to be saved and non elect He chooses to be lost.

In the TULIP theory, Calvin' "L" stood for "limited atonement." In other words, the atoning work of Christ was only for the elect, no one outside of that group. That is what I reject because God is willing that none perish. It was this problem of God electing all other people to be lost that I had to examine all the Scriptures that dealt with "God is not willing that any perish" In Calvin's own words speaking about "predestination" "By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which He determined with Himself whoever He wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation......we say that He (all people) has been predestined to life or to death."

For the answer to the children, I have not read anything about the fate of children in Calvin's writings.. I could be wrong. Children under the age of accountability, by the many men that I have either read of listened to all feel the same. I have heard some pretty lame teachings on where a child goes if they die young. So, I had to search the Scriptures and find a biblical answer. That is found in Romans 5:13 "For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law."You see, from Adam to Moses, there was a period of 1,500 years between when sin was introduced thru Adam to when the Law came thru Moses. Yet, during all those years, mans sins were not being recorded because God had not set down His Commandments. Men were sinning, it's just that there was no record of it.

Now we come to children. The age of accountability varies with each child. For some it can be quite young, for a child who matures very quick. For others, it may be 13, when they are considered knowing right from wrong. I know people who are mentally challenged, who never mature and remain a child in his/her thinking. Since they all don't understand the Law of God, their sins are not being recorded therefore they go to heaven when they die.

In many things God is not partial, but I'll let you decide this statement in, Romans 9:10 "And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth."

These verses are what those who agree with Calvin and his theory of "Limited Atonement" believe on. I must say that those verses are quite convincing but do not satisfy that God is not willing that any person perish unless one believes that God means the elect.

 

[JLB]

Gregg said -

Here, you are agreeing with OSAS, in that knowing God is eternal life.

I am agreeing with the words of Jesus Christ.

And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. John 17:3


Jesus doesn't indicate, once you come to know God, you can never turn away from God or depart from God.


Those are the added words that you chose to add to Jesus' words.


Therefore, you have proven your ability:
- to draw incorrect conclusions,
- to note things that are not true,
- to be interested in untrue things,
- to make incorrect associations.

What you are doing in your statement above, you are also doing with many Scriptures.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Greg said -

You are adding the words 'as long as we', and by doing so you make yourself to be an agent [at least a co-agent] of your salvation. But if you are an agent of your salvation, then that salvation was not:
1). of God's grace, nor
2). of God alone.
That is not the salvation spoken of by God, or witnessed by Christ and His Apostles. You are speaking of another salvation contrary to Scripture.

You are correct!

A person is a co-agent with God in their salvation.

A person must choose to exercise their free will to choose to obey the Gospel message and Repent and confess Jesus Christ as Lord, and believe God raised Him from the dead.

This is the very beginning of a person's faith.

A person must continue to believe to the end in order to be saved.

as it is written -

receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:9

Those who endure to the end will be saved. Matthew 24:13



Otherwise you believe in universal reconciliation.



JLB

 

[gr8grace3]

Jesus doesn't indicate, once you come to know God, you can never turn away from God or depart from God.

And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. John 17:3
John 14:7~~"If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him."

 

[JLB]

And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. John 17:3
John 14:7~~"If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him."

Was He speaking to Judas or Peter?


JLB

 

[Gregg]

You are correct!

A person is a co-agent with God in their salvation.
JLB

I did not say that, nor will I say that.

Bending Scripture or my words does not change what is written or said.

But I say, and have always implied, that a man is not a co-agent of his Salvation. Having faith is not co-agency; as saving faith is a gift.

If you are a co-agent of your salvation, then that salvation is not a gift by God's grace, nor is that salvation of Him. You profess a salvation dependent in part upon upon yourself - not only for its inception, but also for its maintenance and future completion. That is totally foreign [even hostile] to the work of God that He accomplished in Christ.

 

[JLB]

I did not say that, nor will I say that.

Bending Scripture or my words does not change what is written or said.

But I say, and have always implied, that a man is not a co-agent of his Salvation. Having faith is not co-agency; as saving faith is a gift.

If you are a co-agent of your salvation, then that salvation is not a gift by God's grace, nor is that salvation of Him. You profess a salvation dependent in part upon upon yourself - not only for its inception, but also for its maintenance and future completion. That is totally foreign [even hostile] to the work of God that He accomplished in Christ.

Please show the scripture that says saving faith is a gift.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Was He speaking to Judas or Peter?


JLB

21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. Romans 11:21-22


if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.