Bible Study Must we be born again?

[stovebolts]

don’t want to create more controversy about a subject that to say the least is controversial,

I am not in conflict with you and you are correct that while Johns Baptism was for repentance for the forgiveness of sins, the baptism of Jesus was one for believers.

Christianity is so deeply divided over controversies that we've lost this simple truth.

WIP, I understand you were baptized in water as an infant, and there is no way I can speak disrespect full of those who loved you enough to be concerned with your soul. Any parent should be so concerned about their child and they did a good job as you are still in the faith.

When we believe, we become born again and receive the Holy Spirit as our deposit. This was expressed through the ceremony of water baptism which represented being buried with Christ and risen with Christ through the baptismal waters + Romans 6).

Much like Sinai took on the tone of a wedding, so our water baptism confessed our new nature and mutual devotion to God as we entered into the unity and communion shared between the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

A side of me is sorrowful that you never got to experience your wedding day with our Savior.

 

[stovebolts]

In Mark 1:4 John is baptizing of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

This alone is groundbreaking news.

Especially to those who have read Josephus.

Under the Old Covenant your average Israelite could not even approach the Altar...much less place his own sacrifice on it for the remission of sins.
A Levite priest was needed to accomplish this. He wore a special seal tied around his turban that God seen and held back his hand because He would see that the sin offering being offered wasn't the Priest's doing the work.

John's Baptism allowed the common man to ask God for forgiveness himself without a priest or a sacrifice (The Perfect Sacrifice was on the scene)

In another passage this "priesthood of every believer" was also seen to allow us to handle scripture... again ground breaking actions. Totally against the norm. Basically we could quote scriptures to our neighbors without breaking God's Laws. Before this only Levites and "Father's" could do this.

Exactly. And not to disrespect the church of Christ, but they sweep this passage under the rug and we are taught Johns baptism was for repentance ONLY citing Hebrews 9 as an example.

All these years I've never caught this one simple passage.... I was blinded.

 

[WalterandDebbie]

Let’s consider this passage in the context of your thoughts.

he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”
So they said to him, “We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.”
And he said to them, “Into what then were you baptized?”
So they said, “Into John’s baptism.”
Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.
Acts 19:2-6

Key Passage:



And he said to them, “Into what then were you baptized?”
So they said, “Into John’s baptism.”
Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”


I don’t want to create more controversy about a subject that to say the least is controversial,
But it seems Paul was saying that an element of water baptism had changed.

IOW, under John, the people would come in response to John preaching the Gospel, and obey in faith, to be baptized and forgiven of their sins.

After the cross, it seemed the key element was to believe, that is to say, repent and confess Jesus as Lord.

Then we are baptized.

Here is what Jesus commissioned Paul to do -


I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’ Acts 26:17-18


JLB

Amen, I believe also that, there are some Jews that believe in Him:

John 8:31 31To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples.

Love always, Walter and Debbie

 

[GodsGrace]

wondering
I started reading Mark Saturday and noticed this passage.

Mark 1:4 NIV
And so John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

It was an eye-opener that I had never really caught as the church of Christ is set in their ways that John's baptism was for repentance ONLY and as you have heard me state, that forgiveness was not part of Johns baptism.

I wanted to bring this out because I was wrong in what I said in previous posts about Johns Baptism having nothing to do with forgiveness.

I wouldn't go as far as to say everything I said about John was wrong as I still believe I've spoken of him in line with scripture. But clearly, I was wrong about forgiveness.

This will cause me to reevaluate how I view Johns baptism and it's implications.

See, just goes to show ya that about the time we think we've got things figured out, we notice something in scripture we've glossed over many times and it causes us to ponder what we've just said.

Well, it's good to keep an open mind !
They say, and I agree, that every time we read a passage we learn something new from it.

This is also why it's good to exchange ideas. Would you have noticed it if this forum were not speaking about this very subject?

And, as does OzSpen , I also like what the Bereans do very much!
Acts 17:11

 

[GodsGrace]

Exactly. And not to disrespect the church of Christ, but they sweep this passage under the rug and we are taught Johns baptism was for repentance ONLY citing Hebrews 9 as an example.

All these years I've never caught this one simple passage.... I was blinded.

I just want to add this:
I'm sure we've gone thru this before....

If you repent.....
it means you ARE forgiven !
No biblical verse even necessary...it's just simple theology.
One MUST follow the other.

 

[stovebolts]

This is also why it's good to exchange ideas. Would you have noticed it if this forum were not speaking about this very subject?

Actually, had we not been discussing this very topic on the forum, I would have glossed over this passage Saturday night like I have the countless other times I've read Mark.

I explicitly told you Johns Baptism was not for forgiveness. That's why it stood out so sharply.

I actually pointed the passage out to my wife who all of her life had been taught that Johns baptism was not for forgiveness. It was a good eye opener.

 

[stovebolts]

I just want to add this:
I'm sure we've gone thru this before....

If you repent.....
it means you ARE forgiven !
No biblical verse even necessary...it's just simple theology.
One MUST follow the other.

I agree one must follow the other, but in the OT, forgiveness required blood. Johns baptism was unique that it included forgivness and I'm still wrestling with that in my mind as the puzzle shifted and part of my thinking is in minor disarray.

Regardless, confession is in there somewhere lol!

 

[GodsGrace]

Let’s consider this passage in the context of your thoughts.

he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”
So they said to him, “We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.”
And he said to them, “Into what then were you baptized?”
So they said, “Into John’s baptism.”
Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.
Acts 19:2-6

Key Passage:



And he said to them, “Into what then were you baptized?”
So they said, “Into John’s baptism.”
Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”


I don’t want to create more controversy about a subject that to say the least is controversial,
But it seems Paul was saying that an element of water baptism had changed.

IOW, under John, the people would come in response to John preaching the Gospel, and obey in faith, to be baptized and forgiven of their sins.

After the cross, it seemed the key element was to believe, that is to say, repent and confess Jesus as Lord.

Then we are baptized.

Here is what Jesus commissioned Paul to do -


I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’ Acts 26:17-18


JLB

I agree....
But think of this:

The persons that went to John for baptism for the forgiveness of sins because they repented.....they were saved persons....the ones that did not believe in God and His love for the person, did NOT seek baptism.

They were attracted by the message of John because it was said with love whereas the Pharisees taught only back-breaking laws that were to be kept.

So, actually, what saved the persons baptized by John was the same as what saved persons saved by belief in Jesus...
It was BELIEF in God,,,,

(I'm not saying EVERYONE that was baptized of John was saved...just as today not everyone that walks down an isle is saved).

 

[GodsGrace]

Actually, had we not been discussing this very topic on the forum, I would have glossed over this passage Saturday night like I have the countless other times I've read Mark.

I explicitly told you Johns Baptism was not for forgiveness. That's why it stood out so sharply.

I actually pointed the passage out to my wife who all of her life had been taught that Johns baptism was not for forgiveness. It was a good eye opener.

Right.
We were discussing it...not that it was the topic....
Ooops!

 

[GodsGrace]

I agree one must follow the other, but in the OT, forgiveness required blood. Johns baptism was unique that it included forgivness and I'm still wrestling with that in my mind as the puzzle shifted and part of my thinking is in minor disarray.

Regardless, confession is in there somewhere lol!

Let me ask you this SB:
Were only the Hebrews/Israelites/Jews saved?
What about everybody else in the entire world?

You said that blood was necessary to be saved in the O.T.
What happened BEFORE the levitical laws were set in place?
Wasn't Noah saved? And those that came after him?

Also, I'm sure you know that EVERYONE was saved by Jesus' blood even before He actually was crucified. There is no space or time or God.

Jesus carried to the cross ALL THE SINS OF THE WORLD.
ALL.

 

[stovebolts]

Let me ask you this SB:
Were only the Hebrews/Israelites/Jews saved?
What about everybody else in the entire world?

You said that blood was necessary to be saved in the O.T.
What happened BEFORE the levitical laws were set in place?
Wasn't Noah saved? And those that came after him?

Also, I'm sure you know that EVERYONE was saved by Jesus' blood even before He actually was crucified. There is no space or time or God.

Jesus carried to the cross ALL THE SINS OF THE WORLD.
ALL.

Ha, now that's a big ole can of worms lol.

Sounds like a topic for a new thread. Unfortunately, I have to run... Driving and typing don't mix.

How was Adam and Eve clothed?
Cain and Able... Why was one offering accepted and the other rejected?

It's a story that repeats

 

[GodsGrace]

Ha, now that's a big ole can of worms lol.

Sounds like a topic for a new thread. Unfortunately, I have to run... Driving and typing don't mix.

How was Adam and Eve clothed?
Cain and Able... Why was one offering accepted and the other rejected?

It's a story that repeats

Right...Adam and Eve...
The blood always worked.
Even for the non-Jews.
See Romans 1:19-20

 

[JLB]

Amen, I believe also that, there are some Jews that believe in Him:

John 8:31 31To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples.

Love always, Walter and Debbie

I believe with you, that there are Jews who believe in Him.

However, John 8:31 isn’t the best scripture to point that out.

Not trying to argue, as I know your heart and motive.


Jesus ended up saying this to those Jews who believed.


Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. John 8:42-45


JLB

 

[JLB]

I agree....
But think of this:

The persons that went to John for baptism for the forgiveness of sins because they repented.....they were saved persons....the ones that did not believe in God and His love for the person, did NOT seek baptism.

They were attracted by the message of John because it was said with love whereas the Pharisees taught only back-breaking laws that were to be kept.

So, actually, what saved the persons baptized by John was the same as what saved persons saved by belief in Jesus...
It was BELIEF in God,,,,

(I'm not saying EVERYONE that was baptized of John was saved...just as today not everyone that walks down an isle is saved).

Amen.

They knew John was from God.

A true prophet.


JLB

 

[JLB]

I am not in conflict with you and you are correct that while Johns Baptism was for repentance for the forgiveness of sins, the baptism of Jesus was one for believers.

Christianity is so deeply divided over controversies that we've lost this simple truth.

I say that to point out I don’t think you are wrong in the sense that today, we are forgiven our sins by turning to God, even before we are baptized.



JLB

 

[JLB]

Let me ask you this SB:
Were only the Hebrews/Israelites/Jews saved?
What about everybody else in the entire world?

You said that blood was necessary to be saved in the O.T.
What happened BEFORE the levitical laws were set in place?
Wasn't Noah saved? And those that came after him?

Also, I'm sure you know that EVERYONE was saved by Jesus' blood even before He actually was crucified. There is no space or time or God.

Jesus carried to the cross ALL THE SINS OF THE WORLD.
ALL.

Those before His resurrection went to paradise in the heart of the earth, also know as Abraham’s Bosom.


JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

Those before His resurrection went to paradise in the heart of the earth, also know as Abraham’s Bosom.


JLB

True..but this is not even what I was referring too.
Yes,,,those saved before the cross went to Abraham's Bossom..
Luke 16 where they awaited to be freed and gain access to heaven.

My reference was to the point that even before the Levitical priesthood and sacrificial system, persons were saved:
Noah, Abraham, and all his offspring and all those who were SAVED BY FAITH...Hebrews 11.

I had referred to Romans 1:19-20 and made the point that not only Hebrrews/Israelites/Jews were saved because of Jesus' sacrifice, but all those in the world that believed in God and did not know of Jesus.

He died for the sins of the whole world.....IF His sacrifice was accepted, or IF a a person communicated with God in a spiritual manner and believed in God.

OTOH, if someone has heard of Jesus and rejected Him, their soul is in danger for they have rejected God.
1 John 2:2

 

[JohnDB]

John 3:27
John answered and said, “A man can receive nothing, unless it has been given him from heaven.

 

[JohnDB]

John 6:44
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

 

[JLB]

My reference was to the point that even before the Levitical priesthood and sacrificial system, persons were saved:
Noah, Abraham, and all his offspring and all those who were SAVED BY FAITH...Hebrews 11.

Not to mention Enoch.