Bible Study Must we be born again?

[JLB]

Antitype....OK.
This is how I would understand it.
The water that destroyed, NOW saves.

To bring what I posted to Jeff, in perspective to the topic of the Ark, the flood and 1 Peter 3,
I think we agree that Noah and his family entered the Ark first, then the water came afterward.


I say this because, entering the water first, without being in Christ, thinking the water is the means by which we get saved will lead people to have a false sense of salvation.




JLB

 

[stovebolts]

This puts us back in the camp that believes a person is born again when they are baptized.

Not really because I've never believed water baptism is the identifying factor of being born again. We are born again by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and that doesn't have to include water baptism. What I've tried to articulate, but apparently not very well is that within scripture, we see believers being baptized by both water and the Holy Spirit and it is always as a response to the gospel. Never has water baptism been identified in scripture as the many denominations of todayy present it including the catholic church as well as certain churches of Christ or in opposition, the calvinists or nazarenes.

My position has been from a scriptural norm, baptism is much more than a public display of an inner change ( that sounds good, but folks generally can't describe this " inner change").

Within scripture, belief, confession and water baptism always seem to be grouped together and I believe for better reasons than signifying an inward change.

So where does that put water baptism in my theology? As a wedding ceremony where God and Man meet and the covenant is sealed with the Holy Spirit. It is God who gives the Spirit, not through water baptism, but within the baptismal pool.

Of course, scripture requires discernment and there are always exceptions so as you've stated, water baptism does not always have to play a role in being born again. For some, they can be born again upon belief. Regardless, those who are born again are known because we draw others to Christ.

What i have really enjoyed in this thread is that we agree on much more than we disagree and for me, our disagreements are insignificant to me. It has been my pleasure learning from you and being built up by your posts. You have been a breath of fresh air. Thank you.

 

[GodsGrace]

To bring what I posted to Jeff, in perspective to the topic of the Ark, the flood and 1 Peter 3,
I think we agree that Noah and his family entered the Ark first, then the water came afterward.


I say this because, entering the water first, without being in Christ, thinking the water is the means by which we get saved will lead people to have a false sense of salvation.




JLB

Hmmm. Yes, but I think we're going overboard with the stereotypes in the story of Noah.

But yes, we come to Jesus first, and then we get baptized.
If, for some reason, we never get baptized, we'd still be saved.

OTOH, if someone gets baptized but never comes to belief, they are not saved.

Being born again is imperative.
Jesus said to teach and baptize to the Apostles (Mathew 28).
He did not say to baptize and leave it at that.

 

[stovebolts]

To bring what I posted to Jeff, in perspective to the topic of the Ark, the flood and 1 Peter 3,
I think we agree that Noah and his family entered the Ark first, then the water came afterward.


I say this because, entering the water first, without being in Christ, thinking the water is the means by which we get saved will lead people to have a false sense of salvation.




JLB

Exactly.
I'm going to share a story, because it's real and it pertains. Please know that I am not bashing the church of Christ, because there are a lot of good brothers and sisters that attend those congregations.
As you know, i married into the cOfc and there were red flags from the first 3 months. Of course, they did not accept my baptism at 14 and called it Johns baptism. They told me i was not saved and my soul was in jeopardy. Honestly, it hurt and i questioned my salvation. I had only recently repented months earlier and was trying to live a Godly life. So, a week later i was dunked.

That never say well with my soul, so i started really studying the Bible. My studies increased when Mother Teressa died and it was preached from the pulpit that her baptism wasn't biblical, so she was going to hell. That angered me, so i put a lot of time studying baptism. Not just reading the bible it, but studying it, including college courses. I've spent much academia in regard to baptism and exegesis. I realized they had it wrong. They have musical instruments wrong as well.

When my Father in law was nearing the end of his life, he came to stay with us and passed peacefully in our home. Days before he passed he questioned his salvation and feared going to hell. The fact that he was water baptized gave him zero confidence in his salvation, even though he himself believed you had to be baptized to saved.

Here is my point, they argued a lot with different denominations. For many in leadership, they thought it was there role to divide the body of Christ and taught that they were the only ones going to heaven because they were the only one true church of Christ.

What is my point? If we get something as simple as baptism wrong for the purpose of producing doubt in another, then it's not Gods work. It all becomes a house of cards and as my father in law experienced, it steals the security you were taught you had.

Why? Because it's not about walking as Jesus walked and it's certainly not about having a relationship with Jesus. Instead, it's about having all the right answers and defending your doctrine. But it's more than that because to defend, means you have to seek those who will disagree with you so you can make yourself feel right defending false doctrine. But when the end of our lives come to an end, all that is meaningless. Instead of fighting with our brothers, we should be mending relationships because if we can't do that, then we can't have a right relationship with God.

So yes, i agree with you and I've shared why because in the end, false doctrine doesn't give us true hope because like my father in law, i think inside he knew it was false to begin with. He just didn't have the courage to say so.

And now you also know why unity is so strong in me. It's my way of repenting and i feel like I'm doing Gods work.

 

[stovebolts]

Jesus said to teach and baptize to the Apostles (Mathew 28).
He did not say to baptize and leave it at that.

And the writer of Hebrews says that baptism is mere milk. When we get obsessed with the milk, we never mature to solid food.

 

[JLB]

Not really because I've never believed water baptism is the identifying factor of being born again. We are born again by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and that doesn't have to include water baptism.

I agree.

 

[JLB]

Hmmm. Yes, but I think we're going overboard with the stereotypes in the story of Noah.

But yes, we come to Jesus first, and then we get baptized.
If, for some reason, we never get baptized, we'd still be saved.

By “saved”, I take it you mean born again?


JLB

 

[JLB]

OTOH, if someone gets baptized but never comes to belief, they are not saved.

If someone gets baptized in water, but is never born again, they will not be saved.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Here is my point, they argued a lot with different denominations. For many in leadership, they thought it was there role to divide the body of Christ and taught that they were the only ones going to heaven because they were the only one true church of Christ.

What is my point? If we get something as simple as baptism wrong for the purpose of producing doubt in another, then it's not Gods work. It all becomes a house of cards and as my father in law experienced, it steals the security you were taught you had.

Good point.

I see where your coming from.

This explains a lot.


JLB

 

[JLB]

And now you also know why unity is so strong in me. It's my way of repenting and i feel like I'm doing Gods work.

Unity is a worthy goal to contend for.

I hope we can find a way of uniting the motives that we all feel passionately about, under the banner motive of expressing the truth in love.


JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

And the writer of Hebrews says that baptism is mere milk. When we get obsessed with the milk, we never mature to solid food.

I find it sad that many do not know their faith---both Catholics and Protestants.

Christianity is also misrepresented. I was watching a science program a couple of days ago and, in the short time I watched, they stated two incorrect beliefs of the Christian faith. I just had to shut it off because it began to sound prejudiced.

We fight not against flesh and blood.....

 

[GodsGrace]

By “saved”, I take it you mean born again?


JLB

Yes.

I know how precise you like to be and that you like to use biblical language.

In fact, I'm beginning to dislike the term "saved" because it has connotations that may not be correct, biblically speaking.

Born again tells that one must be born first...
then one can be born AGAIN...a second and spiritual time, as in John 3.

One answering to an altar call could really be saved and another person might just by trying it out and nothing really happens.

Getting everyone to use the same language is a tough field to till.
But I also wish it were possible.

 

[JLB]

Yes.

I know how precise you like to be and that you like to use biblical language.

In fact, I'm beginning to dislike the term "saved" because it has connotations that may not be correct, biblically speaking.

Born again tells that one must be born first...
then one can be born AGAIN...a second and spiritual time, as in John 3.

One answering to an altar call could really be saved and another person might just by trying it out and nothing really happens.

Getting everyone to use the same language is a tough field to till.
But I also wish it were possible.

I hear you.


The only reason I ask is, there is being “saved”; ie born again, or regenerated.

Then there is realizing or receiving the salvation of our soul, which occurs as an end result of our faith.

• receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:9

The one is when we are regenerated and baptized into Christ by the Spirit. This is where we come to be “in Christ”, joined to Him, and one spirit with Him.

But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
1 Corinthians 6:17


Receiving the “salvation of our soul”, or “inheriting eternal life”, comes as we stand before our Lord on that Day, when each of us will be Judged according to our deeds.


God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; Romans 2:6-7


Being born again, “saved” has nothing to do with deeds or works of righteousness, but is given to us by faith which is to believing, (obeying) the Gospel, ie confessing with our mouth Jesus as Lord, and occurs at that moment, apart from baptism with water.


Paul says it this way -

But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Titus 3:4-7


When we are born again, regenerated, saved, we have become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.




JLB

 

[GodsGrace]

I hear you.


The only reason I ask is, there is being “saved”; ie born again, or regenerated.

Then there is realizing or receiving the salvation of our soul, which occurs as an end result of our faith.

• receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:9

The one is when we are regenerated and baptized into Christ by the Spirit. This is where we come to be “in Christ”, joined to Him, and one spirit with Him.

But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
1 Corinthians 6:17


Receiving the “salvation of our soul”, or “inheriting eternal life”, comes as we stand before our Lord on that Day, when each of us will be Judged according to our deeds.


God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; Romans 2:6-7


Being born again, “saved” has nothing to do with deeds or works of righteousness, but is given to us by faith which is to believing, (obeying) the Gospel, ie confessing with our mouth Jesus as Lord, and occurs at that moment, apart from baptism with water.


Paul says it this way -

But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Titus 3:4-7


When we are born again, regenerated, saved, we have become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.




JLB

Hi JLB,
To be more clear on my part,,,,I'll say that in my post no. 83, I meant saved in the sense of our eternal salvation which is indeed received at the end of life, as in 1 Peter 1:9...

Again,,,even though we are baptized, but never come to belief in God, we will NOT be saved at the end of life and we will not receive eternal life as in
1 Peter 1:9
obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

The reason being that there was only baptism but no faith, and faith is necessary for the salvation of our souls.

 

[JLB]

Hi JLB,
To be more clear on my part,,,,I'll say that in my post no. 83, I meant saved in the sense of our eternal salvation which is indeed received at the end of life, as in 1 Peter 1:9...

Again,,,even though we are baptized, but never come to belief in God, we will NOT be saved at the end of life and we will not receive eternal life as in
1 Peter 1:9
obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

The reason being that there was only baptism but no faith, and faith is necessary for the salvation of our souls.

Yes ma’am.

Again, baptism in water is for believers, not unbelievers.

IOW, for people who have believed and are born again, not to become born again.


JLB

 

[stovebolts]

wondering
I started reading Mark Saturday and noticed this passage.

Mark 1:4 NIV
And so John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

It was an eye-opener that I had never really caught as the church of Christ is set in their ways that John's baptism was for repentance ONLY and as you have heard me state, that forgiveness was not part of Johns baptism.

I wanted to bring this out because I was wrong in what I said in previous posts about Johns Baptism having nothing to do with forgiveness.

I wouldn't go as far as to say everything I said about John was wrong as I still believe I've spoken of him in line with scripture. But clearly, I was wrong about forgiveness.

This will cause me to reevaluate how I view Johns baptism and it's implications.

See, just goes to show ya that about the time we think we've got things figured out, we notice something in scripture we've glossed over many times and it causes us to ponder what we've just said.

 

[WIP]

wondering
I started reading Mark Saturday and noticed this passage.

Mark 1:4 NIV
And so John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

It was an eye-opener that I had never really caught as the church of Christ is set in their ways that John's baptism was for repentance ONLY and as you have heard me state, that forgiveness was not part of Johns baptism.

I wanted to bring this out because I was wrong in what I said in previous posts about Johns Baptism having nothing to do with forgiveness.

I wouldn't go as far as to say everything I said about John was wrong as I still believe I've spoken of him in line with scripture. But clearly, I was wrong about forgiveness.

This will cause me to reevaluate how I view Johns baptism and it's implications.

See, just goes to show ya that about the time we think we've got things figured out, we notice something in scripture we've glossed over many times and it causes us to ponder what we've just said.

One thought that comes to my mind. Is it really John's baptism or was John only the means by which it was done? Similarly, when we baptize, is it our baptism or are we just the means to the end?

 

[stovebolts]

One thought that comes to my mind. Is it really John's baptism or was John only the means by which it was done? Similarly, when we baptize, is it our baptism or are we just the means to the end?

Looking Back, I think this is what wondering was talking about with John being stuck in the middle of the two covenants.

This is what I {think} I know. In the Sinai covenant, a trip to Priest was needed so an offering could be made. Also, there was a yearly offering on the day of Yom Kippur for all of Israel.


Hebrews 9:22 New International Version (NIV)
22 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

In Mark 1, John is baptizing for repentance for the forgivness of sins...

In Mark 2, Jesus is accused of speaking wrongly about God.

Mark 2:6-7 Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, 7 “Why does this fellow talk like that? He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

It certainly is a transitioning period.

Since we are under the new covenant in Jesus blood, we are able to forgive sins since we are priests filled with the Holy Spirit.

John 20:22-23 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

This side of the covenant, I believe we are being obedient when we baptize others. But it is not our baptism but instead ( without being dogmatic), it is the baptism of Jesus which John spoke about.

 

[JLB]

wondering
I started reading Mark Saturday and noticed this passage.

Mark 1:4 NIV
And so John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness, preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

It was an eye-opener that I had never really caught as the church of Christ is set in their ways that John's baptism was for repentance ONLY and as you have heard me state, that forgiveness was not part of Johns baptism.

I wanted to bring this out because I was wrong in what I said in previous posts about Johns Baptism having nothing to do with forgiveness.

I wouldn't go as far as to say everything I said about John was wrong as I still believe I've spoken of him in line with scripture. But clearly, I was wrong about forgiveness.

This will cause me to reevaluate how I view Johns baptism and it's implications.

See, just goes to show ya that about the time we think we've got things figured out, we notice something in scripture we've glossed over many times and it causes us to ponder what we've just said.

Let’s consider this passage in the context of your thoughts.

he said to them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”
So they said to him, “We have not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit.”
And he said to them, “Into what then were you baptized?”
So they said, “Into John’s baptism.”
Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid hands on them, the Holy Spirit came upon them, and they spoke with tongues and prophesied.
Acts 19:2-6

Key Passage:



And he said to them, “Into what then were you baptized?”
So they said, “Into John’s baptism.”
Then Paul said, “John indeed baptized with a baptism of repentance, saying to the people that they should believe on Him who would come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.”


I don’t want to create more controversy about a subject that to say the least is controversial,
But it seems Paul was saying that an element of water baptism had changed.

IOW, under John, the people would come in response to John preaching the Gospel, and obey in faith, to be baptized and forgiven of their sins.

After the cross, it seemed the key element was to believe, that is to say, repent and confess Jesus as Lord.

Then we are baptized.

Here is what Jesus commissioned Paul to do -


I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’ Acts 26:17-18


JLB

 

[JohnDB]

In Mark 1:4 John is baptizing of repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

This alone is groundbreaking news.

Especially to those who have read Josephus.

Under the Old Covenant your average Israelite could not even approach the Altar...much less place his own sacrifice on it for the remission of sins.
A Levite priest was needed to accomplish this. He wore a special seal tied around his turban that God seen and held back his hand because He would see that the sin offering being offered wasn't the Priest's doing the work.

John's Baptism allowed the common man to ask God for forgiveness himself without a priest or a sacrifice (The Perfect Sacrifice was on the scene)

In another passage this "priesthood of every believer" was also seen to allow us to handle scripture... again ground breaking actions. Totally against the norm. Basically we could quote scriptures to our neighbors without breaking God's Laws. Before this only Levites and "Father's" could do this.