The Catholic Church.

[Fastfredy0]

The genealogies in both Matthew and Luke, although they differ, are about Jesus' male ancestors; they have nothing to do with Mary.

Not that I care much about the subject. Wikipedia seems to think both genealogists go thru Christ's father, though it mentions that some people believe one genealogy is for Mary.
Gotquestions.org thinks one genealogy is for Mary and one for Joseph.

Gotquestions.org
However, there is good reason to believe that Matthew and Luke are in fact tracing entirely different genealogies. For example, Matthew gives Joseph’s father as Jacob (Matthew 1:16), while Luke gives Joseph’s father as Heli (Luke 3:23). Matthew traces the line through David’s son Solomon (Matthew 1:6), while Luke traces the line through David’s son Nathan (Luke 3:31). In fact, between David and Jesus, the only names the genealogies have in common are Shealtiel and Zerubbabel (Matthew 1:12; Luke 3:27).

Wikipedia
The New Testament provides two accounts of the genealogy of Jesus, one in the Gospel of Matthew and another in the Gospel of Luke.[1] Matthew starts with Abraham, while Luke begins with Adam. The lists are identical between Abraham and David, but differ radically from that point. Matthew has twenty-seven generations from David to Joseph, whereas Luke has forty-two, with almost no overlap between the names on the two lists.⁠ Notably, the two accounts also disagree on who Joseph's father was: Matthew says he was Jacob, while Luke says he was Heli.[2]


Rose window in Basilica of Saint-Denis, France, depicting the ancestors of Jesus from Jesse onwards
Traditional Christian scholars (starting with Africanus and Eusebius[3]) have put forward various theories that seek to explain why the lineages are so different,[4] such as that Matthew's account follows the lineage of Joseph, while Luke's follows the lineage of Mary, although both start with Jesus and then go to Joseph, not Mary. Some modern critical scholars like Marcus Borg and John Dominic Crossan state that both genealogies are inventions, intended to bring the Messianic claims into conformity with Jewish criter

 

[for_his_glory]

Not really, as I don't know any modern Collyridians. (They were condemned by the Catholics in the fourth century.)

What harm would the Collyridians be to Catholics as this group of women worshiped Mary as a goddess just like Catholics do today, except for baking little cakes and bread rolls for Mary like these women did.

 

[for_his_glory]

Once again, I'm surprised Protestants don't just remove Mary from their Bibles. They can be done with her once and for all.

Mary played an important part as being blessed above other women as being chosen to be the mother of Jesus, She is mentioned many times in the Bible, but yet she never remained a virgin as her and Joseph had other children and she still lays in her grave as all the Prophets and Apostles and all who have ever died.

 

[for_his_glory]

Not that I care much about the subject. Wikipedia seems to think both genealogists go thru Christ's father, though it mentions that some people believe one genealogy is for Mary.
Gotquestions.org thinks one genealogy is for Mary and one for Joseph.

Gotquestions.org
However, there is good reason to believe that Matthew and Luke are in fact tracing entirely different genealogies. For example, Matthew gives Joseph’s father as Jacob (Matthew 1:16), while Luke gives Joseph’s father as Heli (Luke 3:23). Matthew traces the line through David’s son Solomon (Matthew 1:6), while Luke traces the line through David’s son Nathan (Luke 3:31). In fact, between David and Jesus, the only names the genealogies have in common are Shealtiel and Zerubbabel (Matthew 1:12; Luke 3:27).

Wikipedia
The New Testament provides two accounts of the genealogy of Jesus, one in the Gospel of Matthew and another in the Gospel of Luke.[1] Matthew starts with Abraham, while Luke begins with Adam. The lists are identical between Abraham and David, but differ radically from that point. Matthew has twenty-seven generations from David to Joseph, whereas Luke has forty-two, with almost no overlap between the names on the two lists.⁠ Notably, the two accounts also disagree on who Joseph's father was: Matthew says he was Jacob, while Luke says he was Heli.[2]


Rose window in Basilica of Saint-Denis, France, depicting the ancestors of Jesus from Jesse onwards
Traditional Christian scholars (starting with Africanus and Eusebius[3]) have put forward various theories that seek to explain why the lineages are so different,[4] such as that Matthew's account follows the lineage of Joseph, while Luke's follows the lineage of Mary, although both start with Jesus and then go to Joseph, not Mary. Some modern critical scholars like Marcus Borg and John Dominic Crossan state that both genealogies are inventions, intended to bring the Messianic claims into conformity with Jewish criter

It's only the lineage of Mary through Nathan as Joseph has nothing to do with the birth of Christ as Jesus has no earthly father. It was Mary, not Joseph that God worked through because she was of the lineage of David through his son Nathan and the fulfillment of prophecy that Christ would sit on the throne of David.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Mary played an important part as being blessed above other women as being chosen to be the mother of Jesus,

Except for child baring, which my wife has done twice, I do not see an more important role for Mary than any other mother.

Granted, Mary was most blessed, but that was God's doing and not Mary's.

Except for child baring, how was Mary's role more important than Joseph?

Aside...not that this subject is of great importance...lol

 

[for_his_glory]

Except for child baring, how was Mary's role more important than Joseph?

Because of her lineage over that of Josephs. It is a lengthy an interesting study in history of both their genealogies.

 

[jaybo]

It's only the lineage of Mary through Nathan as Joseph has nothing to do with the birth of Christ as Jesus has no earthly father. It was Mary, not Joseph that God worked through because she was of the lineage of David through his son Nathan and the fulfillment of prophecy that Christ would sit on the throne of David.

Fine, except that descent in the Bible is always through the male lineage. It was a totally patriarchal society. Notice in Luke 2 that Mary and Joseph went to Bethlehem because that was where he was from. Her lineage was unimportant even though she was already pregnant with Jesus.

Again, I believe Scripture. This artificial veneration of Mary is opposed to the clear story of Jesus' lineage.

Matthew 1:1-17, "
This is the record of the genealogy of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

Abraham was the father of Isaac, Isaac the father of Jacob, Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers, Judah the father of Perez and Zerah (by Tamar), Perez the father of Hezron, Hezron the father of Ram, Ram the father of Amminadab, Amminadab the father of Nahshon, Nahshon the father of Salmon, Salmon the father of Boaz (by Rahab), Boaz the father of Obed (by Ruth), Obed the father of Jesse, and Jesse the father of David the king.

David was the father of Solomon (by the wife of Uriah), Solomon the father of Rehoboam, Rehoboam the father of Abijah, Abijah the father of Asa, Asa the father of Jehoshaphat, Jehoshaphat the father of Joram, Joram the father of Uzziah, Uzziah the father of Jotham, Jotham the father of Ahaz, Ahaz the father of Hezekiah, Hezekiah the father of Manasseh, Manasseh the father of Amon, Amon the father of Josiah, and Josiah the father of Jeconiah and his brothers, at the time of the deportation to Babylon.

After] the deportation to Babylon, Jeconiah became the father of Shealtiel, Shealtiel the father of Zerubbabel, Zerubbabel the father of Abiud, Abiud the father of Eliakim, Eliakim the father of Azor, Azor the father of Zadok, Zadok the father of Achim, Achim the father of Eliud, Eliud the father of Eleazar, Eleazar the father of Matthan, Matthan the father of Jacob, and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, by whom Jesus was born, who is called Christ

So all the generations from Abraham to David are fourteen generations, and from David to the deportation to Babylon, fourteen generations, and from the deportation to Babylon to Christ, fourteen generations.

Luke 3:23-38 "So Jesus, when he began his ministry, was about thirty years old. He was the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the son of Heli, the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, the son of Melchi, the son of Jannai, the son of Joseph, the son of Mattathias, the son of Amos, the son of Nahum, the son of Esli, the son of Naggai,the son of Maath, the son of Mattathias, the son of Semein, the son of Josech, the son of Joda, the son of Joanan, the son of Rhesa, the son of Zerubbabel, the son of Shealtiel, the son of Neri, the son of Melchi, the son of Addi, the son of Cosam, the son of Elmadam, the son of Er, the son of Joshua, the son of Eliezer, the son of Jorim, the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, the son of Simeon, the son of Judah, the son of Joseph, the son of Jonam, the son of Eliakim, the son of Melea, the son of Menna, the son of Mattatha, the son of Nathan,the son of David, the son of Jesse, the son of Obed, the son of Boaz, the son of Sala, the son of Nahshon, the son of Amminadab, the son of Admin, the son of Arni, the son of Hezron, the son of Perez, the son of Judah, the son of Jacob, the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham, the son of Terah, the son of Nahor, the son of Serug, the son of Reu, the son of Peleg, the son of Eber, the son of Shelah, the son of Cainan, the son of Arphaxad, the son of Shem, the son of Noah, the son of Lamech,the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch, the son of Jared, the son of Mahalalel, the son of Kenan, the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God."

Notice the lineage is totally through the males. This "grasping at straws" to make Mary's lineage significant is unscriptural. It's time to face facts, not create them!

 

[jaybo]

Except for child baring, which my wife has done twice, I do not see an more important role for Mary than any other mother.

Granted, Mary was most blessed, but that was God's doing and not Mary's.

Except for child baring, how was Mary's role more important than Joseph?

Aside...not that this subject is of great importance...lol

Mary gave birth to Jesus; her role was not more important in raising Him than Joseph's. In fact, when they left Jerusalem she lost sight of her child for 4 days.

 

[Fastfredy0]

Because of her lineage over that of Josephs. It is a lengthy an interesting study in history of both their genealogies.

I guess I don't consider lineage important.

If my lineage is greater than someone else's, does that make me more important? When the Jews bragged of their lineage from Abraham they were told it's not a big deal as God could make more children of Abraham from stones.

You're IN CHRIST which makes you more important than any earthly royal lineage.

Aside: Not that this is important

 

[Walpole]

What harm would the Collyridians be to Catholics as this group of women worshiped Mary as a goddess just like Catholics do today, except for baking little cakes and bread rolls for Mary like these women did.

Are you really asking what harm would there be in worshiping Mary? The answer is it is a violation of the first commandment! Worshiping anyone other than God is idolatry. This is Judaism and Christianity 101.

What Catholics today worship Mary as a goddess? Please present your evidence.

 

[Walpole]

Mary played an important part as being blessed above other women as being chosen to be the mother of Jesus, She is mentioned many times in the Bible, but yet she never remained a virgin as her and Joseph had other children and she still lays in her grave as all the Prophets and Apostles and all who have ever died.

View attachment 12314

---> Please post the verse(s) from Scripture which identifies Mary's supposed subsequent maternities and Jesus' uterine siblings.


---> Where is her grave which contains her body?

 

[Fastfredy0]

In fact, when they left Jerusalem she lost sight of her child for 3 days.

Yeah, i've wondered about that. In our culture that would be questioned and I would have probably been disciplined. Must be more to the story.

Definitely a unique situation: being up the Son of God.

 

[Walpole]

St. Matthew's and St. Luke's genealogies differ for an important reason. One gives the juridical succession through which Davidic rights descended to Joseph and his legal son (Jesus Christ). The other follows the real genealogy according to consanguinity. It is like dealing with the lineage of the Queen of England, either juridically in the order of succession, or really in her own family line. The reason for this is St. Luke is writing to Gentiles, whereas St. Matthew's audience were Jews.

Jewish custom recorded genealogies in the male line. What is further unique about the Holy Family is Joseph and Mary were relatives in the same line, and therefor the lineage of Joseph was that of Mary's also. We know this because St. Luke records Gabriel telling Mary that she would conceive by the Holy Ghost and that the child born of her would inherit the throne of David his father. (cf. Luke 1:32) This is evince that Mary herself, by her own right, was in the Davidic line.

Lastly, I am amazed at how Mary is completely dismissed as just a normal mother, no different than any other wife or mother. No other mother in history has given God a human nature. Think incarnationally and you will begin to understand why Christians hold Mary is such honor.

 

[jaybo]

Let's look at Mary's role in Jesus' life. All through Matthew's gospel it's Joseph who receives instructions from the angel of the Lord, not Mary.

Matthew 2:13-14, "After they had gone, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, “Get up, take the child and his mother and flee to Egypt, and stay there until I tell you, for Herod is going to look for the child to kill him.”

Matthew 2:19-21, " After Herod had died, an angel of the Lord appeared in a dream to Joseph in Egypt saying, “Get up, take the child and his mother, and go to the land of Israel, for those who were seeking the child’s life are dead.” So he got up and took the child and his mother and returned to the land of Israel."

Also, why does Jesus ask "who is my mother" in three of the four gospels?

Matthew 12:46-50, "While Jesus was still speaking to the crowds, his mother [Mary] and brothers came and stood outside, asking to speak to him. Someone] told him, “Look, your mother [Mary] and your brothers are standing outside wanting to speak to you.” To the one who had said this, Jesus replied, “Who is my mother and who are my brothers?” 49 And pointing toward his disciples he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother.” (also in Mark 3 and Luke 8)

This last story should make it clear that Mary is not the venerated woman the Catholic church makes her out to be. She gave birth to Jesus but Joseph raised Him and made the important decisions about Him according to God's will. Then, as an adult, He makes her importance to Him clear to all, saying "Who is my mother?"

 

[Fastfredy0]

No other mother in history has given God a human nature.

I am sure God has thanked Mary for how she helped Him by given God a human nature.
_______________
Let us offer praise and thanksgiving to the most holy Trinity who has shown us the virgin Mary, clothed with the sun, the moon beneath her feet, and on her head a mystic crown of twelve stars, for ever and ever.
Amen.

Let us praise and thank the divine father who elected her for his daughter. Amen. Our Father.
Praised be the divine father who chose her to be the mother of his divine son. Amen. Hail Mary.
Praised be the divine father who endowed her so richly with his grace. Amen. Hail Mary.
Praised be the divine father who adorned her at her birth with his most excellent gifts. Amen. Hail Mary.
Praised be the divine father who gave her St. Joseph to be her companion and most chaste spouse. Amen. Hail Mary. Glory be.

Let us praise and thank the divine son who chose her for his mother. Amen. Our Father.
Praised be the divine son who became incarnate in her bosom and there abode for nine months. Amen. Hail Mary.
Praised be the divine son who was born of her and was nourished at her breast. Amen. Hail Mary.
Praised be the divine son who in his childhood willed to be taught by her. Amen. Hail Mary.
Praised be the divine son who revealed to her the mystery of the redemption of the world. Amen. Hail Mary. Glory be.

Let us praise and thank the Holy Spirit who took her for his spouse. Amen. Our Father.
Praised be the Holy Spirit who revealed first to her his name of Holy Spirit. Amen. Hail Mary.
Praised be the Holy Spirit by whose operation she was at once virgin and mother. Amen. Hail Mary.
Praised be the Holy Spirit by whose power she was the living temple of the ever-blessed Trinity. Amen. Hail Mary.
Praised be the Holy Spirit by whom she was exalted in heaven above every living creature. Amen. Hail Mary. Glory be.
Catholicnewsagency.com

 

[jaybo]

I am sure God has thanked Mary for how she helped Him by given God a human nature.
_______________
Let us offer praise and thanksgiving to the most holy Trinity who has shown us the virgin Mary, clothed with the sun, the moon beneath her feet, and on her head a mystic crown of twelve stars, for ever and ever.
Amen.

Let us praise and thank the divine father who elected her for his daughter. Amen. Our Father.
Praised be the divine father who chose her to be the mother of his divine son. Amen. Hail Mary.
Praised be the divine father who endowed her so richly with his grace. Amen. Hail Mary.
Praised be the divine father who adorned her at her birth with his most excellent gifts. Amen. Hail Mary.
Praised be the divine father who gave her St. Joseph to be her companion and most chaste spouse. Amen. Hail Mary. Glory be.

Let us praise and thank the divine son who chose her for his mother. Amen. Our Father.
Praised be the divine son who became incarnate in her bosom and there abode for nine months. Amen. Hail Mary.
Praised be the divine son who was born of her and was nourished at her breast. Amen. Hail Mary.
Praised be the divine son who in his childhood willed to be taught by her. Amen. Hail Mary.
Praised be the divine son who revealed to her the mystery of the redemption of the world. Amen. Hail Mary. Glory be.

Let us praise and thank the Holy Spirit who took her for his spouse. Amen. Our Father.
Praised be the Holy Spirit who revealed first to her his name of Holy Spirit. Amen. Hail Mary.
Praised be the Holy Spirit by whose operation she was at once virgin and mother. Amen. Hail Mary.
Praised be the Holy Spirit by whose power she was the living temple of the ever-blessed Trinity. Amen. Hail Mary.
Praised be the Holy Spirit by whom she was exalted in heaven above every living creature. Amen. Hail Mary. Glory be.
Catholicnewsagency.com

a) Why are you posting this "mantra"?
b) It's interesting to read, even though the first and last lines of the "praise section" are non-Biblical fiction. (Some of the other lines are also questionable.)

 

[for_his_glory]

Fine, except that descent in the Bible is always through the male lineage. It was a totally patriarchal society. Notice in Luke 2 that Mary and Joseph went to Bethlehem because that was where he was from. Her lineage was unimportant even though she was already pregnant with Jesus.

Again, I believe Scripture. This artificial veneration of Mary is opposed to the clear story of Jesus' lineage.

I realize it is always through the male as this we agree on, but in the case of Mary you have to research her paternal side, not Joseph's, that traces back to Nathan being the son of David and where prophecy was made that Christ will sit on the throne of David for eternity.

It should be important to know the lineage of Jesus through Mary in why she was chosen to birth the Christ child per the prophecy that Christ will sit on the throne of David. Mary's descent comes through David's son Nathan, Luke 3:31. To fulfill God's promise to establish David's throne forever, God honored Nathan by making him the ancestor of the promised King (Messiah) who would sit on David's throne throughout eternity, Luke 1:31-33. Mary having no brothers to inherit the throne the inheritance would come to her first son being Jesus.

 

[for_his_glory]

Mary gave birth to Jesus; her role was not more important in raising Him than Joseph's. In fact, when they left Jerusalem she lost sight of her child for 4 days.

Did not Joseph also lose sight of Jesus as well as Mary did!!!

Did I say Mary's roll in raising Jesus was more important than Joseph's? If I did please show me as I have written so much here that I never intended to get involved in.

 

[jaybo]

I realize it is always through the male as this we agree on, but in the case of Mary you have to research her paternal side, not Joseph's, that traces back to Nathan being the son of David and where prophecy was made that Christ will sit on the throne of David for eternity.

It should be important to know the lineage of Jesus through Mary in why she was chosen to birth the Christ child per the prophecy that Christ will sit on the throne of David. Mary's descent comes through David's son Nathan, Luke 3:31. To fulfill God's promise to establish David's throne forever, God honored Nathan by making him the ancestor of the promised King (Messiah) who would sit on David's throne throughout eternity, Luke 1:31-33. Mary having no brothers to inherit the throne the inheritance would come to her first son being Jesus.

I am not interested in Mary's genealogy. It is not scriptural, therefore irrelevant.

Luke 3:23, "So Jesus, when he began his ministry, was about thirty years old. He was the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the son of Heli,"

Luke 3:31, "... the son of Melea, the son of Menna, the son of Mattatha, the son of Nathan, the son of David," refers to Jesus, not Mary!

Why are you persistently trying to justify Mary's lineage? Why are you so inordinately fixated on Mary who, let's face it, is a minor person in Scripture? Jesus needed a human mother and she was chosen. Nothing more...

 

[jaybo]

Did not Joseph also lose sight of Jesus as well as Mary did!!!

Did I say Mary's roll in raising Jesus was more important than Joseph's? If I did please show me as I have written so much here that I never intended to get involved in.

Nobody is venerating Joseph as some super-human.