Unconditional Election or did God foreknow something in us Conditioned Salvation upon?

[Dorothy Mae]

Dear Alfred,

I thank you for your conversation. I’m very deeply interested in what and how people think. With time, one can see why people think as they do and it’s fascinating. We can continue but I thought I’d take a moment to appreciate your explanations. They reveal a great deal.

 

[GodsGrace]

Election to salvation is clearly God's choice:


Because unconditional election seems "unjust", many agree with Arminius and read into "foreknow" something in the "foreknown" must have merited election, rending it conditional. But context and scripture fix the "time" of God's election BEFORE creation, before we did good or bad:



And so the debate has raged for centuries. But I propose there is an "elegant" (conforming to scripture) solution that keeps the best part of unconditional election (salvation by grace not works, eternal security) while rejecting the conclusion God didn't actually base his election on something He foreknew, like Peter says we are "elect according to the foreknowledge of God (1 Pet. 1:2 NKJ)":

When faced with two contrary statements and both are correct its clear a different perspective is required to resolve the conflict. To illustrate, the following statements are both 100% correct yet seem to contradict each other:


The correct perspective resolves the contradiction. These are border states, John left the border state of New Jersey precisely as he entered New York.

So also the apparent contradiction between “Unconditional” and “Conditional” Election. God conditioned election according to what we were in His omniscience, not according to us now after He chose to create.

Before God created, in His Omniscience He knew everyone who would spring into existence, both the “unfallen version” and “fallen version”; God knew who would choose life in Holiness with Him and who would choose evil and want to live separate from Him. Both the “children of God” and the “children of the Devil” were fully known to Him.

By a special act of “foreknowledge”, God “knew before” all those who loved Him, somewhat like we experience “highlighted text” before its surrounding darkened text. And God loved them even more (cp. Rom. 11:2). [2] Therefore, before they did anything good or bad God predestined those He foreknew loved Him unto salvation, regardless what their “fallen versions” do in this fallen realm:


Predestination unto salvation is the action God took to guarantee none of His children were lost because of the Fall.

Therefore, Paul does not contradict Peter and in Romans 8:29 actually agrees with Peter as the context requires only the Elected were foreknown and predestined..

God Predestined those He foreknew would fall, unto salvation. Not based upon anything the “fallen version” were or did in this life. It was God’s good will and pleasure not to lose any of His beloved because the Fall prevented the “unfallen version” from coming into existence.

Hi AP
Nice to have you here .

Two comments:

1. You're two statements about leaving NJ (or was it (NY??) Do not conflict with each other.

2. If we are chosen from the beginning of time,,,how do you explain that that we are born totally depraved? This is contradictory,,,could you explain better?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Hi AP
Nice to have you here .

Two comments:

1. You're two statements about leaving NJ (or was it (NY??) Do not conflict with each other.

2. If we are chosen from the beginning of time,,,how do you explain that that we are born totally depraved? This is contradictory,,,could you explain better?

I don’t see how the “chosen before time” conflicts with the depraved doctrine. Aren’t those independent? I see the chosen for hell before time regardless of what one chooses in life conflicting with goodness as we know it to be.

 

[GodsGrace]

I don’t see how the “chosen before time” conflicts with the depraved doctrine. Aren’t those independent? I see the chosen for hell before time regardless of what one chooses in life conflicting with goodness as we know it to be.

Of course.
You're right soteriologically, but if we look a little deep into calvinism/reformed, it really makes little sense for more than one reason.

IOW, if God chose us for salvation before the beginning, and we're all born totally depraved,
I'd ask 2 question further to the OP...

Does every baby go to hell if he should die?
They would answer Yes.

How could that be if God chose some of them for salvation before time???

There is a clear conflict.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Hi AP
Nice to have you here .

Two comments:

1. You're two statements about leaving NJ (or was it (NY??) Do not conflict with each other.

2. If we are chosen from the beginning of time,,,how do you explain that that we are born totally depraved? This is contradictory,,,could you explain better?

I don't believe we are born "totally depraved."

On my site I illustrate how a different perspective can resolve apparent contradiction:

When faced with two contrary statements and both are correct its clear a different perspective is required to resolve the conflict. To illustrate, the following statements are both 100% correct yet seem to contradict each other:

At 9 AM today John entered the state of New York”
At 9 AM today John left the state of New Jersey”.

The correct perspective resolves the contradiction. These are border states, John left the border state of New Jersey precisely as he entered New York.

[At first read it contradicts that John is in two different states at the same precise time]

Its my argument both "conditional" and "unconditional" Election are true, when seen from different perspectives.

Election was conditioned on God''s foreknowledge of the "unfallen version" of us, all who loved God in that perfect state when their free will was truly free, are predestined to salvation.

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
32 He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not with Him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall bring a charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.
(Rom. 8:28-33 NKJ)

Notice nothing is said about the wicked. If Reprobation were correct, Paul would have said so, here. Reprobation, Total Depravity, these are logical deductions from the failure to have the right perspective and see the whole picture.

As the "unfallen version" of us never came into existence, existing solely in the Mind of God before creation, there is no connection to the "fallen version" that we are now. Nothing we have or will do played a part in our election, hence from that perspective its "unconditional".

 

[Alfred Persson]

Dear Alfred,

I thank you for your conversation. I’m very deeply interested in what and how people think. With time, one can see why people think as they do and it’s fascinating. We can continue but I thought I’d take a moment to appreciate your explanations. They reveal a great deal.

You are very welcome. Stone sharpens stone, its good Christians talk and share, we are all benefited by it. Answering you made me rewrite some of my material, to make it easier to understand, so I was (and am) greatly profited by your questions.

 

[JLB]

We were discussing foreknowledge, and you aren't clear at all.

WHAT do you believe happens when God "foreknows?" Describe what happens. Define what "knowing before" is.

I described foreknowledge already as knowing before hand.

Knowing the outcome of something before it happens.

God knows beforehand whether a people will choose to believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ or not.

This point leads to summation -

He doesn’t force to remain “in Him”.


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:6


Here is how the scriptures instruct us to remain “in Christ”…


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


"In Christ" is the obvious conclusion of salvation, as God foreknew who would choose to be in Christ, by believing the Gospel, thus His foreknowledge was based on the condition of believing in His Son.


Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, Ephesians 1:3-4



JLB

 

[Alfred Persson]

I don’t see how the “chosen before time” conflicts with the depraved doctrine. Aren’t those independent? I see the chosen for hell before time regardless of what one chooses in life conflicting with goodness as we know it to be.

I don't believe in Total Depravity. While no one is perfect, God says of Job:

Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?" (Job 1:8 NKJ)

That can't be said about someone "totally depraved".

 

[JLB]

Yes people are saved when they believe,

Agreed, this is what the scriptures teach.

because they have to be saved in order to believe.

If they are saved "when" they believe, then before they believe they remain "unsaved".

The scriptures teach we are saved "when" we believe.



JLB

 

[Alfred Persson]

I described foreknowledge already as knowing before hand.

Knowing the outcome of something before it happens.

God knows beforehand whether a people will choose to believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ or not.

This point leads to summation -

He doesn’t force to remain “in Him”.


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:6


Here is how the scriptures instruct us to remain “in Christ”…


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


"In Christ" is the obvious conclusion of salvation, as God foreknew who would choose to be in Christ, by believing the Gospel, thus His foreknowledge was based on the condition of believing in His Son.


Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, Ephesians 1:3-4



JLB

Please explain what you mean. Didn't God already know before the act of "foreknowing"? Then why "foreknow" at all?

"Foreknowledge" is listed in Scripture as something special God does, so its distinct from God's Omniscience. God is not Omniscient because He foreknows, He is Omniscient and on occasion chooses to foreknow.

When I asked you if God learned something new when He "foreknew" you said "no".

So what does it mean "He foreknew".

What is that precisely?

 

[Alfred Persson]

I described foreknowledge already as knowing before hand.

Knowing the outcome of something before it happens.

God knows beforehand whether a people will choose to believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ or not.

This point leads to summation -

He doesn’t force to remain “in Him”.


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:6


Here is how the scriptures instruct us to remain “in Christ”…


Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. 1 John 3:24


"In Christ" is the obvious conclusion of salvation, as God foreknew who would choose to be in Christ, by believing the Gospel, thus His foreknowledge was based on the condition of believing in His Son.


Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, Ephesians 1:3-4



JLB

I illustrate my definition of the act of God's foreknowing in this manner:

By a special act of “foreknowledge”, God “knew before” all those who loved Him, somewhat like we experience “highlighted text” before its surrounding darkened text.

God "knows" what He already knows in His Omniscience, before everything else, in a special and unique way. But He is Omniscient without the act of foreknowing.

For example:

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
(Rom. 8:28-31 NKJ)

The Wicked were not being "foreknown" in this context, only those who love God. God is "knowing" this special group in a special way.

 

[JLB]

Please explain what you mean. Didn't God already know before the act of "foreknowing"? Then why "foreknow" at all?

"Foreknowledge" is listed in Scripture as something special God does, so its distinct from God's Omniscience. God is not Omniscient because He foreknows, He is Omniscient and on occasion chooses to foreknow.

When I asked you if God learned something new when He "foreknew" you said "no".

So what does it mean "He foreknew".

What is that precisely?

This is all just speculation and opinion.

We have enough of that, which only breeds division.


Please use scripture to formulate a basis of mutual understanding.



JLB

 

[JLB]

He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son,

Yes agreed, we are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son.


Amen, we agree.


God knows beforehand whether a people will choose to believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ or not.

This point leads to summation -

He doesn’t force to remain “in Him”.


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6



Do you believe it is necessary for a person to believe the Gospel, to be “in Christ”?





JLB

 

[brightfame52]

Your position is predicated upon an unproven assumption, that there is only one version of us, the "fallen one" that actually came into existence.

Its more likely, before the foundation of the world, God in His omniscience had "two versions" of us in Mind, the "unfallen version" and the "fallen version" that actually came into existence. If God elects according to "a condition" in the "unfallen version" (which never comes into existence), Election could be BOTH conditional and unconditional.

That resolves the apparent conflict between Paul who says Election is unconditional (“not of ourselves”) and the apostle Peter who predicates election on what God foreknew, "according to":

If God chose His people in Christ before the foundation, it was a choice He made of them before they existed. Its just like Paul wrote in Rom 9:11

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

Election was before the persons are born and so not predicated on their actions, since they had no actions being unborn.

 

[brightfame52]

I did. What are the elected elected to do and to be?

I did what ?

 

[brightfame52]

Agreed, this is what the scriptures teach.





If they are saved "when" they believe, then before they believe they remain "unsaved".

The scriptures teach we are saved "when" we believe.



JLB

One has to be in a saved state in order to believe. See the Gospel is hidden to them that are unsaved or lost so they cant believe 2 Cor 4:3-4

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

See the unsaved have their minds blinded resulting in unbelief. As long as one is unsaved, they are lost and cant believe. So if a person does believe, its because they were in a saved state.

 

[Alfred Persson]

If God chose His people in Christ before the foundation, it was a choice He made of them before they existed. Its just like Paul wrote in Rom 9:11

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)

Election was before the persons are born and so not predicated on their actions, since they had no actions being unborn.

You missed my point. I agree election is unconditional, not predicated upon what we are in this fallen realm. But I believe it WAS conditioned on God's foreknowledge:

elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father (1 Pet. 1:2 NKJ)

Conditioned on what God foreknew in them that loved Him after God loved them first, in His Omniscience where the "unfallen version" had truly free will and knew God perfectly. Those who did not love God He did not elect:

28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.
31 What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
(Rom. 8:28-31 NKJ)

Its is God's good purpose and will that NOT ONE of those who loved Him in His Omniscience, fail to be restored because of this fallen realm. Everything will work for their salvation, even Hell itself:

26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins."
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience,
31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!
34 "For who has known the mind of the LORD? Or who has become His counselor?"
35 "Or who has first given to Him And it shall be repaid to him?"
36 For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen. (Rom. 11:26-36 NKJ)

What is true of Elect Jews is true for Elect Gentiles for there is no partiality with God:

For there is no partiality with God. (Rom. 2:11 NKJ)

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I did what ?

For you it’s “you did what?” I started a discussion. What are the elected to do or be?

 

[JLB]

One has to be in a saved state in order to believe.

Please show the scripture that’s says one must be in a saved state to believe?


Please define what a “saved state” according to the scriptures.




JLB

 

[Alfred Persson]

Yes agreed, we are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son.


Amen, we agree.


God knows beforehand whether a people will choose to believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ or not.

This point leads to summation -

He doesn’t force to remain “in Him”.


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6



Do you believe it is necessary for a person to believe the Gospel, to be “in Christ”?





JLB

Taking your last question first:
8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart " (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.
13 For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved."
(Rom. 10:8-13 NKJ)

The gospel the apostles preached is what people should confess to be saved. BUT suppose someone "got what they preached wrong," but sincerely believed they got it right. Is their calling on the name of the LORD null and void? I don't think so.

I don't believe one has to be an expert in Christian theology to be saved. That opens up the door to many of those in the cults, who believe heresies but they sincerely called upon the name of the LORD (as they understood it) to be saved.

BUT they have to call upon the name of the LORD Jesus Christ, for there is no other name under the heaven whereby men can be saved:

12 "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." (Acts 4:12 NKJ)

When I learned the Jehovah's Witnesses were wrong about the Holy Spirit (cf. Acts 13:2 "I" "Me") I cried out to "Jehovah" for salvation.

For about a week I kept begging "Jehovah, show me your people so I can join them!" In tears, I wailed and was totally broken, in the darkest spiritual darkness I ever felt.

God did not answer.

When I called out to Jesus, He saved me. I was born again.

As for texts that seem to show a believer losing their salvation, that can't happen if they are one of the elect. I believe those texts apply to those who seemed to be Christians, but there was no root in them:

18 "Therefore hear the parable of the sower:
19 "When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside.
20 "But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;
21 "yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
22 "Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.
23 "But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty." (Matt. 13:18-23 NKJ)