Unconditional Election or did God foreknow something in us Conditioned Salvation upon?

Taking your last question first:
8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart " (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.
13 For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved."
(Rom. 10:8-13 NKJ)

The gospel the apostles preached is what people should confess to be saved. BUT suppose someone "got what they preached wrong," but sincerely believed they got it right. Is their calling on the name of the LORD null and void? I don't think so.

I don't believe one has to be an expert in Christian theology to be saved. That opens up the door to many of those in the cults, who believe heresies but they sincerely called upon the name of the LORD (as they understood it) to be saved.

BUT they have to call upon the name of the LORD Jesus Christ, for there is no other name under the heaven whereby men can be saved:

12 "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." (Acts 4:12 NKJ)

When I learned the Jehovah's Witnesses were wrong about the Holy Spirit (cf. Acts 13:2 "I" "Me") I cried out to "Jehovah" for salvation.

For about a week I kept begging "Jehovah, show me your people so I can join them!" In tears, I wailed and was totally broken, in the darkest spiritual darkness I ever felt.

God did not answer.

When I called out to Jesus, He saved me. I was born again.


As for texts that seem to show a believer losing their salvation, that can't happen if they are one of the elect. I believe those texts apply to those who seemed to be Christians, but there was no root in them:

18 "Therefore hear the parable of the sower:
19 "When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside.
20 "But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;
21 "yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
22 "Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.
23 "But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty." (Matt. 13:18-23 NKJ)

Please address the scripture I quoted, whereby Jesus says we must "remain" in Him.


If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
John 15:6



Do you believe it is necessary for a person to believe the Gospel, to be “in Christ”?



JLB
 
I already showed you. The Gospel is hidden to them that are lost. A person cant believe something that is hidden from them.

Your statement describes the condition of the lost.

Here is what I asked you...

Please show the scripture that’s says one must be in a saved state to believe?


Please define what a “saved state” according to the scriptures.




JLB
 
Not speculation:

29 For whom He foreknew (4267 προγινώσκω proginosko), He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Rom. 8:29 NKJ)

Agreed, God has predestined us to be conformed to the image of His Son, not predestined some for salvation and some for damnation.
 
I dont believe thats correct, hated is the word the Holy Spirit inspired Paul to write. God hates all the workers of iniquity Ps 5:5

5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

Is hated a poor translation here also ?
I think the point is God knew about Esau before birth but apparently didn’t love him in your understanding.
 
Your statement describes the condition of the lost.

Here is what I asked you...

Please show the scripture that’s says one must be in a saved state to believe?


Please define what a “saved state” according to the scriptures.




JLB
Correct, the Gospel is being hidden to the lost,and everyone enters into this world lost spiritually dead in sin. So if and when the Gospel comes to us while lost, dead in sin, its hid, and consequently we believe not. 2 Cor 4:3-4

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

A companion verse states that the preaching of the cross is to them that are persihing foolishness, but to the saved its the power of God

1 Cor 1:18

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish[lost] foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

That word persih is the same word for lost in 2 Cor 4:3 so it confirms that while in a lost spiritual state the Gospel is hid from us and we count it as foolishness which is unbelief.
 
I think the point is God knew about Esau before birth but apparently didn’t love him in your understanding.
Thats an errant assumption because Rom 9:11 clearly indicates that God hated easu and loved Jacob before they were born and before they did any good or evil. So you are assuming against clear scripture light :

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)
 
Thats an errant assumption because Rom 9:11 clearly indicates that God hated easu and loved Jacob before they were born and before they did any good or evil. So you are assuming against clear scripture light :

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth)
Alfred says Gods foreknowing people demonstrates He therefore loves them. I gave him an example of God foreknowing and not loving.

The passage, btw, refers to the nations, not individuals.
 
Correct, the Gospel is being hidden to the lost,and everyone enters into this world lost spiritually dead in sin. So if and when the Gospel comes to us while lost, dead in sin, its hid, and consequently we believe not. 2 Cor 4:3-4

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

A companion verse states that the preaching of the cross is to them that are persihing foolishness, but to the saved its the power of God

1 Cor 1:18

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish[lost] foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

That word persih is the same word for lost in 2 Cor 4:3 so it confirms that while in a lost spiritual state the Gospel is hid from us and we count it as foolishness which is unbelief.


More scriptures about lost or perishing.


Can you answer my request to provide a scripture that teaches us
“one must be in a saved state to believe”


Please define what a “saved state” according to the scriptures.
 
D: Knowing doesn’t mean loving. You are in a logical fallacy. Besides God loves the whole world including Esau John 3:16.

The Romans promise is absolutely conditional. Your quote leaves off the conditions.


D: The latter is the theology for sure. Not the scripture but the theology.

Again God loved the whole world…the whole world.
Never said "knowing is loving", I said "you cannot love what you don't know".
 
Taking your last question first:
8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart " (that is, the word of faith which we preach):
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.
13 For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved."
(Rom. 10:8-13 NKJ)

The gospel the apostles preached is what people should confess to be saved. BUT suppose someone "got what they preached wrong," but sincerely believed they got it right. Is their calling on the name of the LORD null and void? I don't think so.

I don't believe one has to be an expert in Christian theology to be saved. That opens up the door to many of those in the cults, who believe heresies but they sincerely called upon the name of the LORD (as they understood it) to be saved.

BUT they have to call upon the name of the LORD Jesus Christ, for there is no other name under the heaven whereby men can be saved:

12 "Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." (Acts 4:12 NKJ)

When I learned the Jehovah's Witnesses were wrong about the Holy Spirit (cf. Acts 13:2 "I" "Me") I cried out to "Jehovah" for salvation.

For about a week I kept begging "Jehovah, show me your people so I can join them!" In tears, I wailed and was totally broken, in the darkest spiritual darkness I ever felt.

God did not answer.

When I called out to Jesus, He saved me. I was born again.


As for texts that seem to show a believer losing their salvation, that can't happen if they are one of the elect. I believe those texts apply to those who seemed to be Christians, but there was no root in them:

18 "Therefore hear the parable of the sower:
19 "When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside.
20 "But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;
21 "yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.
22 "Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.
23 "But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty." (Matt. 13:18-23 NKJ)
I very much agree with the first part of your post.
Many are saved that know nothing of theology or doctrines.
But they depend on Jesus for their salvation and this is indeed what will save them.

I do not agree with the statement regarding the fact that those that fall away from the faith were never saved to begin with. This is the belief of many that are uncomfortable with the fact that salvation comes at the end of life - although we can be sure of it if we persevere till the end and abide in the vine.

Jesus Himself said in your verse that some believed FOR A WHILE.
They believed for a while and THEN fell away.

Paul states that some fall away.
What are they falling away from?

1 Timothy 4:1
Matthew 24:10
James 5:19

and so many other verses.

This is why I have to believe that one can believe and then fall away...
 
It proves God's love existed before time itself.
Of course. John tells us that God IS love.
Love is a component of His character (as we understand character to be).

What I meant is that God certainly foreknew all that would be saved.
He did not arbitrarily pick them, as calvinism believes.
Their salvation is indeed conditioned on the fact that they choose to believe and be saved.
And that God knew this from the beginning....
 
Alfred says Gods foreknowing people demonstrates He therefore loves them. I gave him an example of God foreknowing and not loving.

The passage, btw, refers to the nations, not individuals.
It doest matter to me what alford said. Read the scripture I gave you and may God be pleased to give you understanding.
 
More scriptures about lost or perishing.


Can you answer my request to provide a scripture that teaches us
“one must be in a saved state to believe”


Please define what a “saved state” according to the scriptures.
I have given you scripture.
 
I have given you scripture.
You have never provided a scripture that proves that one has to be saved first in order to believe.
This is because there is none.
The calvinist ordo salutis was not known to ANY Christian until John Calvin 1500....approx.
Where were the theologians before that?
You know very well that this ordo salutis that Calvin invented must be to provide support for his doctrine of total depravity. How can one possibly believe is he is totally depraved??? Problem with Calvinism is that one incorrect doctrine leads to others.

Please provide a verse or verses that support your theory that one must be saved first, and then comes to believe.

One must b elieve first and THEN is saved...

Romans 10:9
if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith.

Acts 2:38
“Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins,


We must confess Jesus FIRST, and THEN be saved.
We are saved by God's grace THROUGH FAITH.
We must repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of our sins...

Our sins are not forgiven FIRST and THEN we repent...
This is the ordo salutis God has given us in His word.
 
It doest matter to me what alford said. Read the scripture I gave you and may God be pleased to give you understanding.
If you come into an exchange it’s best to find out what the exchange contains. I was addressing some illogical points Alfred was making.

And the scripture speaking of God hating Esau was referring to the nations, not the man. God blessed he man Esau. The Edomites, Esau’s descendants, became quite evil. That’s what the old testament prophet referred to.
 
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Of course. John tells us that God IS love.
Love is a component of His character (as we understand character to be).

What I meant is that God certainly foreknew all that would be saved.
He did not arbitrarily pick them, as calvinism believes.
Their salvation is indeed conditioned on the fact that they choose to believe and be saved.
And that God knew this from the beginning....
I cannot agree, Calvin was right agreeing with scripture that Divine Election was not predicated upon what we do or desire in this life:

11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),
12 it was said to her, "The older shall serve the younger."
13 As it is written, "Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated."
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not!
15 For He says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion."
16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. (Rom. 9:11-16 NKJ)

Most object to this because it seems arbitrary, unjust. But that criticism rests upon a logical fallacy, that those not elected cannot be saved, cannot choose to believe in Christ and be saved, which is clearly wrong:

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever (3956 πᾶς pass) believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. (Jn. 3:16 NKJ)

For "whoever (3956 πᾶς pass) calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved." (Rom. 10:13 NKJ)

(3956 πᾶς pass) = all, everyone.

As Paul says, there is no unrighteousness with God
. Paul proved via God's Sovereignty and the fact He is the Creator and its His to do with as He pleases---God's right to elect some and not all, however He wants.

But I have an additional proof there is no unrighteousness with God that is implicit in Paul's soteriology

God is not partial. The non-elect can be saved also, if they believe in Christ. The contrast "Jew vs Greek" implies "Elect vs Non-Elect" because God elected the Jewish nation, not the Gentile nations to be His people:

the righteous judgment of God,
6 who "will render to each one according to his deeds":
7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness-- indignation and wrath,
9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;
10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11 For there is no partiality with God. (Rom. 2:5-11 NKJ)

All must believe in Christ to be saved, including the elect.

Hence there is no partiality with God.


Anyone who dies without Christ goes to hell, including the Elect. Paul clearly teaches that here about Elect Jews who died disobedient, even enemies of the Gospel:

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins."
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience,
31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out! (Rom. 11:25-33 NKJ)

All have equal chance to repent and believe in Christ, in this life and in Hell:

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)

That is why some of those who died and endured a divine trial according to what they done in the flesh, [who repent] and live according to God in the Spirit, then EAGERLY wait for the Second Coming of Christ for their Resurrection:

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment,
28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. (Heb. 9:27-28 NKJ)


28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:28-29 NKJ)

"Hear His voice" is Jewish idiom for "obey Christ", all who obey the Gospel of Christ preached to them in hell will rise to the resurrection of life. Read it again, "all in the graves will Hear His voice", when they are in hell.
 
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I have given you scripture.

You have given me scripture that has nothing whatsoever to do with the discussion or the question I asked you.


Can you answer my request to provide a scripture that teaches us
one must be in a saved state to believe” (your statement)


Please define what a “saved state” is according to the scriptures.


How does a person become saved, who hasn’t heard the gospel?


How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed?
And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?
And how shall they hear without a preacher? Romans 10:14





JLB
 
You have given me scripture that has nothing whatsoever to do with the discussion or the question I asked you.


Can you answer my request to provide a scripture that teaches us
one must be in a saved state to believe” (your statement)


Please define what a “saved state” is according to the scriptures.


How does a person become saved, who hasn’t heard the gospel?


How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed?
And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard?
And how shall they hear without a preacher? Romans 10:14





JLB
I don't believe that, its absurd. Nor do I recall saying anything close to that. Its absurd, totally confused.
 
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