Limited atonement !

[journeyman]

John 3:18 Whoever believes and has decided to trust in Him [as personal Savior and Lord] is not judged [for this one, there is no judgment, no rejection, no condemnation]; but the one who does not believe [and has decided to reject Him as personal Savior and Lord] is judged already [that one has been convicted and sentenced], because he has not believed and trusted in the name of the [One and] only begotten Son of God [the One who is truly unique, the only One of His kind, the One who alone can save him].

Paul said,
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? Rom.10:14

It took awhile for the gospel to spread, but Paul doesn't mean. "Anyone who never heard of Jesus is damned." Paul taught,
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves............Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall no this uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
Rom.2:14,26
Paul is saying the "righteousness of the law" a gentile never even heard of before. He's talking about the gentiles conscience. What the gentile people on earth know about God from, without having read the Bible.
Now, what does Paul mean by keeping "the righteousness of the law? Simply that we're all sinners in need of Gods' mercy and God forgives the repentant.

Question 1: What must a person today who never heard of Christ do to be saved? Provide scripture verses

He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? Mic.6:8

Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. Mt.7:12

Question 2: Is the method you suggest in question 1 more effective than salvation in Christ? If so, should we use that method instead of telling others of Christ

The method I suggest was demonstrated by God himself in human flesh. I find it stunning that our Creator came for a visit and was stripped and beaten for no lawful reason. When you see on the news today how an innocent person was abused by authorities, people protest and rightfully so. But Jesus didn't call the law as a witness. When you read about how Jesus abolished (really set the law aside...for now), think about that.

Question 3: Assume a person who is saved via your answer to question 1. He hears of Christ and doesn't believe in Him. Is this person still saved? If he is not saved, should missionaries first inquire to see if the person who has never heard of Christ is saved by the method you pose in question 1 and then, if the answer is YES, avoid telling him about Christ for fear of destroying his salvation?

My answer is, if thy guy heard about "the Jesus" mainstream Christianity teaches today, I hope he'd run like hell.

If someone who knows God later heard the gospel of Christ, he'd be drawn to Christ. That's what Jn.6:45 means.

For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. Rom.1:17

 

[brightfame52]

Well, what do you think Solomon meant?
See, that's what I'm talking about. It's like when the Bible says, "Train children in Gods' ways, so they won't depart from it later on." What is your opinion of that?

Not here to discuss that, Im here to talk about Limited atonement and to prove it with scripture.

 

[Fastfredy0]

I didn't answer your Ninavah (SP) verse implying they went to heaven because they repented. The verse does not correlate heaven with 'repenting'. You've read that into the verse. The people of Ninavah repented (changed their minds) and stopped their bad habits and God relented from destroying them. (I try to avoid discussing salvation in Old Testament context as methodology is not clearly outlined line in the N.T.)

Paul is saying the "righteousness of the law" a gentile never even heard of before. He's talking about the gentiles conscience. What the gentile people on earth know about God from, without having read the Bible.
Now, what does Paul mean by keeping "the righteousness of the law? Simply that we're all sinners in need of Gods' mercy and God forgives the repentant.

I don't see an answer to my question about how a person today goes to heaven when he dies having never heard of Christ or a exegesis of John 3:18 that says they go to hell "because he has not believed and trusted in the name of the [One and] only begotten Son of God".
I agree that all people have the law in their conscience, but by the works of the law no one goes to heaven.

God forgives the repentant.

Where in the Bible does it say the repentance (changing one's mind) alone saves a person. Your statement does not say what people must repent (change their mind about). I say that further scripture must be addressed. People must repent (change their mind) about Christ. Again, there are billions who never heard of Christ today that cannot 'repent' about knowledge of Christ as they don't know of Him.

Paul is saying the "righteousness of the law" a gentile never even heard of before. He's talking about the gentiles conscience. What the gentile people on earth know about God from, without having read the Bible.

Again, knowledge of the law does not save a person. Feeling sorry about breaking the law doesn't save a person. You can show a verse show saying we are saved by repentance alone let alone what exactly one must repent (change his mind) of.

He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? Mic.6:8

Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets. Mt.7:12

This is salvation by works. We are saved by Faith. You make no mention of faith or the contents of faith to save a person who never heard of Christ.

I think we are not even close to exegesis of your verses. I give you high marks for answering my questions. Thx.

 

[journeyman]

Not here to discuss that, Im here to talk about Limited atonement and to prove it with scripture.

I think God wants people to know him.

 

[brightfame52]

I think God wants people to know him.

The Death of Christ provides for that and causes it. Thats Jesus responsibility Jn 17:2-3

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Heb 8:10-11

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

Again this is about limited effectual atonement.

 

[journeyman]

I didn't answer your Ninavah (SP) verse implying they went to heaven because they repented. The verse does not correlate heaven with 'repenting'. You've read that into the verse. The people of Ninavah repented (changed their minds) and stopped their bad habits and God relented from destroying them.

The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here. Mt.12:41

So you think our Lord meant the people of Nineveh will be condemned on judgment day after condemning the unrepentant who lived in the 1st century?

(I try to avoid discussing salvation in Old Testament context as methodology is not clearly outlined line in the N.T.)

Paul said,

For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 1Cor.15:3

The "church" today teaches contrary to how the OT says Christ would die.

I don't see an answer to my question about how a person today goes to heaven when he dies having never heard of Christ

I just told you,

if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? Rom.2:26

The "righteousness of the law" is that all people who know good and evil have sinned. The idea that sinners are incapable of believing God exists and forgives the repentant was invented by theologians that didn't know him very well.

or a exegesis of John 3:18 that says they go to hell "because he has not believed and trusted in the name of the [One and] only begotten Son of God".

And I told you, people who believe God exists and forgives the repentant believe what Jesus taught, whether they've heard his name or not.

I agree that all people have the law in their conscience, but by the works of the law no one goes to heaven.

Good. Now ask yourself how people who never heard the law...have the law in their conscience.

Where in the Bible does it say the repentance (changing one's mind) alone saves a person. Your statement does not say what people must repent (change their mind about). I say that further scripture must be addressed. People must repent (change their mind) about Christ. Again, there are billions who never heard of Christ today that cannot 'repent' about knowledge of Christ as they don't know of Him.
Again, knowledge of the law does not save a person. Feeling sorry about breaking the law doesn't save a person. You can show a verse show saying we are saved by repentance alone let alone what exactly one must repent (change his mind) of.

This is salvation by works. We are saved by Faith. You make no mention of faith or the contents of faith to save a person who never heard of Christ.

I think we are not even close to exegesis of your verses. I give you high marks for answering my questions. Thx.

Of course repentance is the result of faith. I didn't think you needed me to qualify that, but since you do, faith comes from hearing about God, which is a work of his Spirit.

You don't have to believe that before Abraham, there were only gentiles living on earth. You can ignore how gentiles taught their children about God. You don't have to believe that any knowledge of God existed among people who overspread this earth.
You don't have to believe that before the Word was born on earth, some people believed his word by what their parents taught them.

As far as changing our minds about Jesus, it would help to see him as being sinned against by mankind in place of our Father, instead of the heretical belief that he was punished by our Father in place of sinners.

 

[journeyman]

The Death of Christ provides for that and causes it. Thats Jesus responsibility Jn 17:2-3

2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Heb 8:10-11

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

Again this is about limited effectual atonement.

Atonement isn't granted to anyone who thinks they can sin against God without repenting of it. People who abused our Savior were sinning against God in human flesh.

 

[Fastfredy0]

So you think our Lord meant the people of Nineveh will be condemned on judgment day after condemning the unrepentant who lived in the 1st century?

All I know for sure of salvation in the O.T. is that it is by faith. Since the method of salvation in the O.T. is cloudy I find it best, when talking about salvation "how to" the keep the discussion on the N.T. as it is more relevant to us and there is more, clear information.
Besides, this is not relevant to my original statement that billions of people will/have died since Christ that never heard of him and therefore we are left with limited atonement at least to a significant extent.

For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 1Cor.15:3

The "church" today teaches contrary to how the OT says Christ would die.

Again, I won't deal with opinions of O.T. salvation as stated for the reasons above in the context of this discussion.

I just told you,

if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? Rom.2:26

Has nothing to do with salvation and even if it did, no one is saved by the law because no one can obey all of it.

And I told you, people who believe God exists and forgives the repentant believe what Jesus taught, whether they've heard his name or not.

You have no verse for that. The ones you present I doubt you can find ANY commentary to agree with your interpretation.

Good. Now ask yourself how people who never heard the law...have the law in their conscience.

God gave us a conscience ...no idea of how this is pertinent. People know they sin and most have and idea there is a God. So what? Even if you feel sorry for sinning and acknowledge God exist one is not saved. That would mean Muslims and all sorts of religious affiliations go to heaven ... ridiculous

Of course repentance is the result of faith. I didn't think you needed me to qualify that, but since you do, faith comes from hearing about God, which is a work of his Spirit.

Agreed ... glad I didn't have to point that out and I didn't want to go on that tangent ... .the point is you never revealed the content of faith that saves people that never heard of Christ and have no been able to verify with scripture said content that you are yet to present.
What must one believe to be saved if not info about Christ? (New Testament to keep things simple)

Aside: I give you 'props' for answering questions posed to you.

Again, What must one believe to be saved if not info about Christ with validating verse(s)? (New Testament to keep things simple) Again, if it is not possible for those billions who died after Christ's death having neither hear of Chirst to be saved .... then you have limited atonement proven empirically.

 

[brightfame52]

Atonement isn't granted to anyone who thinks they can sin against God without repenting of it. People who abused our Savior were sinning against God in human flesh.

You don't know what you want to discuss do you

 

[journeyman]

All I know for sure of salvation in the O.T. is that it is by faith. Since the method of salvation in the O.T. is cloudy I find it best, when talking about salvation "how to" the keep the discussion on the N.T. as it is more relevant to us and there is more, clear information.
Besides, this is not relevant to my original statement that billions of people will/have died since Christ that never heard of him and therefore we are left with limited atonement at least to a significant extent.

I gave you an example of people who are saved that never heard the name "Jesus."
You've chosen to ignore it.

Again, I won't deal with opinions of O.T. salvation as stated for the reasons above in the context of this discussion.

The example I gave isn't my opinion. It's what Jesus plainly said, You've chosen to ignore it.

Has nothing to do with salvation and even if it did, no one is saved by the law because no one can obey all of it.

Paul said gentiles who keep the righteousness of Moses' law are circumcised internally. I showed you what "the righteousness of the law" means but you ignored it.

You have no verse for that. The ones you present I doubt you can find ANY commentary to agree with your interpretation.

Here's the commentary,

To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice. Pro.21:3

God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. Act.10:34-35

God gave us a conscience ...no idea of how this is pertinent. People know they sin and most have and idea there is a God. So what? Even if you feel sorry for sinning and acknowledge God exist one is not saved.

The Bible disagrees with you,

He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy. Pro.28:13

That would mean Muslims and all sorts of religious affiliations go to heaven ... ridiculous

Muslims don't believe what Jesus taught.

Agreed ... glad I didn't have to point that out and I didn't want to go on that tangent ... .the point is you never revealed the content of faith that saves people that never heard of Christ and have no been able to verify with scripture said content that you are yet to present.
What must one believe to be saved if not info about Christ? (New Testament to keep things simple)

the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: 2Cor.5:14

Calvanists think Jesus died, so they don't have to, but what Paul really means is,

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. Rom.8:13

Again, What must one believe to be saved if not info about Christ with validating verse(s)? (New Testament to keep things simple)

Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: Lk.6:37

Again, if it is not possible for those billions who died after Christ's death having neither hear of Chirst to be saved .... then you have limited atonement proven empirically.

For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. Rom.2:12-13

Doers by the condemnation of the law (or by conscience) see their need for Gods' mercy and live accordingly.

 

[journeyman]

You don't know what you want to discuss do you

We're discussing the insane belief that common sense has nothing to do with faith in Jesus.

 

[Fastfredy0]

I gave you an example of people who are saved that never heard the name "Jesus."
You've chosen to ignore it.

I didn't ignore it. I didn't accept it. You accept it. People of Ninivah repented is not proof of salvation.
Again, the O.T. is more difficult to establish what constitutes saving faith and thus more easily manipulated.

Paul said gentiles who keep the righteousness of Moses' law are circumcised internally. I showed you what "the righteousness of the law" means but you ignored it.

I didn't ignore it. I didn't accept it. You are interpreting incorrectly. Naturally, you think differently.

To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice. Pro.21:3

God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. Act.10:34-35

Verses have nothing to do with saving faith.

He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy. Pro.28:13

So, you're saying anyone that confesseth and forsaketh sin shall have mercy.
First issue is what is the result of this mercy ...not tortured as much in heaven. It's not like the verse explicitly says the mercy include eternity in heaven.
.... and since NO forsakes all their sins after confession it would nullify the mercy ... also, we often sin and don't realize it, so not possible to confess and repent of unknown sin save in a general way like "I'm sorry for sins I don't recall or recognize and sorry I can't repent of things I don't realize are sin. God demands sinless perfection if you are to be saved by the law ... this remedy doesn't work. I'm sure you disagree.



RE: Your means of salvation would mean Muslims and all sorts of religious affiliations go to heaven ... ridiculous

Muslims don't believe what Jesus taught.

Agreed, but irrelevant to the context of the discussion. You just said one that never heard of Christ can be saved; all they have to do is "but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy. Pro.28:13".
The context of the discussion is my point that: Limited Atonement must be true because one must have faith in Christ to be saved and because many have died not ever hearing of Christ and or thus doomed to hell ... therefore Atonement is Limited.



RE: gain, What must one believe to be saved if not info about Christ with validating verse(s)? (New Testament to keep things simple)

Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: Lk.6:37

Guess you don't want to answer. Least wise, I can't believe you think one goes to heaven by obeying Luke 6:37


We're not getting anywhere. Thanks for being respectful.

 

[brightfame52]

We're discussing the insane belief that common sense has nothing to do with faith in Jesus.

You say that, then five minutes later you talking about something else.

 

[journeyman]

I didn't ignore it. I didn't accept it. You accept it. People of Ninivah repented is not proof of salvation.

Jesus said they were saved. Jesus also taught that repentance is required for salvation

Again, the O.T. is more difficult to establish what constitutes saving faith and thus more easily manipulated.

It was before the Messiah appeared.

I didn't ignore it. I didn't accept it. You are interpreting incorrectly. Naturally, you think differently.

Do you even know what the righteousness of the law is and that it must be kept?

Verses have nothing to do with saving faith.

So, you're saying anyone that confesseth and forsaketh sin shall have mercy.
First issue is what is the result of this mercy ...not tortured as much in heaven. It's not like the verse explicitly says the mercy include eternity in heaven.

Believing someones sins are forgiven but he's still damned is ridiculous.

.... and since NO forsakes all their sins after confession it would nullify the mercy ... also, we often sin and don't realize it, so not possible to confess and repent of unknown sin save in a general way like "I'm sorry for sins I don't recall or recognize and sorry I can't repent of things I don't realize are sin. God demands sinless perfection if you are to be saved by the law ... this remedy doesn't work. I'm sure you disagree.

I'm sure theologians took Pauls' teaching that gentiles don't need circumcise their foreskins and misinterpreted it to mean people don't need to obey Jesus to be saved.
God is patient as believers are conformed to the image of Christ.

RE: Your means of salvation would mean Muslims and all sorts of religious affiliations go to heaven ... ridiculous

Agreed, but irrelevant to the context of the discussion. You just said one that never heard of Christ can be saved; all they have to do is "but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy. Pro.28:13".

I didn't say it was "all", but no one is saved without Gods' mercy. So, the sinner who confesses and forsakes sin will have Gods' mercy. (And btw, forsaking sin is a matter of going to war against it.)

Fastfredy0:
The context of the discussion is my point that: Limited Atonement must be true because one must have faith in Christ to be saved and because many have died not ever hearing of Christ and or thus Atonement is Limited.

RE: gain, What must one believe to be saved if not info about Christ with validating verse(s)? (New Testament to keep things simple)

Atonement is only granted to people who believe what God said,

To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: Rom.2:7

For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. Rom.8:13

Guess you don't want to answer. Least wise, I can't believe you think one goes to heaven by obeying Luke 6:37

Many people think they don't need obey Jesus to be saved,

And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: Mt.7:26

We're not getting anywhere. Thanks for being respectful.

We're not getting anywhere because the root of disagreement is, Calvanists think Jesus suffered in place of man. Our Savior came here in place of our Father.

now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father. But this cometh to pass, that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law,They hated me without a cause. Jn.15:24-25

the reproaches of them that reproached thee are fallen upon me. Psa.69:9

They compassed me about also with words of hatred; and fought against me without a cause. Psa.109:3

 

[journeyman]

You say that, then five minutes later you talking about something else.

It's not something else. Calvanists think atonement is limited because sinners are incapable of recognizing anything having to do with God.

 

[brightfame52]

It's not something else. Calvanists think atonement is limited because sinners are incapable of recognizing anything having to do with God.

There you go

 

[brightfame52]

Christs death was limited to them He actually redeemed Titus 2:14

14 who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

The giving of Himself speaks of His death, and specifically says "for us", who are they? Why it's all that are redeemed from iniquity, and purified unto himself, who constitute a peculiar people, zealous of good works. 17

 

[journeyman]

The truth is, those lost are damned because they chose to reject God, so Christ died for all.

 

[brightfame52]

The truth is, those lost are damned because they chose to reject God, so Christ died for all.

Error

 

[journeyman]

Error

I don't believe it is error. The knowledge of good and evil is more clearly defined by the law for the purpose of humbling people.
The law humbles when i's directed at self.

I believe although all people are sinners, the vast majority of humanity still tries to do good and that's because they know good and evil (not just evil) which is the influence of the Spirit of our God...for the purpose of humility.

Calvanism is wrong from the start.