Limited atonement !

brightfame52 said:
Christs death is limited to them He obtained Eternal Redemption for, since what He obtains for us He lives to ensure the application of it Heb 9:12

neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Now by His own Blood signifies His Death, which by it He obtained eternal redemption for certain ones. Now who are they?

Recall back in Chapter 1 vs 14

Heb 1:14

14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

Its the heirs. Notice again Heb 6:17-18

. 17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath: 18 that by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us

And the heirs of promise dont just consist of some jews, but some Gentiles, the Church the Body of Christ Gal 3:29

And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. 17
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THIS ^^^^^
 
brightfame52 said:
Christs death is limited to them He obtained Eternal Redemption for, since what He obtains for us He lives to ensure the application of it Heb 9:12

neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Click to expand...
Not by those who are still in the grave, but by himself showed his likeness to his Father.
brightfame52 said:
Now by His own Blood signifies His Death, which by it He obtained eternal redemption for certain ones. Now who are they?

Recall back in Chapter 1 vs 14

Heb 1:14

14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

Its the heirs. Notice again Heb 6:17-18

. 17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath: 18 that by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us

And the heirs of promise dont just consist of some jews, but some Gentiles, the Church the Body of Christ Gal 3:29

And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. 17
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And the heirs aren't exempt from showing the likeness of their Father.

For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, Heb.2:11

And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. 1Jn.2:28
 
journeyman said:
Not by those who are still in the grave, but by himself showed his likeness to his Father.

And the heirs aren't exempt from showing the likeness of their Father.

For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, Heb.2:11

And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. 1Jn.2:28
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Those people who Christ died for, though they are in the grave, they shall be raised up unto Glory Jn 5:28-29

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Now those who are raised from the graves that Christ died for are raised up to their eternal inheritance due to their eternal redemption,


Those folks who Christ didnt die for and they are in their graves, will be raised up to eternal damnation.
 
brightfame52 said:
Those people who Christ died for, though they are in the grave, they shall be raised up unto Glory Jn 5:28-29

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Now those who are raised from the graves that Christ died for are raised up to their eternal inheritance due to their eternal redemption,


Those folks who Christ didnt die for and they are in their graves, will be raised up to eternal damnation.
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You cite a passage where our Savior says doing good or evil is going to affect our destiny, but then teach doing good or evil has nothing to do with being chosen.
 
journeyman said:
You cite a passage where our Savior says doing good or evil is going to affect our destiny, but then teach doing good or evil has nothing to do with being chosen.
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Doing good is being given the Gift of Faith to believe on Christ, and doing evil is not having been given the Gift to believe on Christ, but to trust in themselves and their own self righteousness. So either way you have been refuted.
 
Iconoclast said:
It is an actual accomplished redemption that actually secured redemption , not a "potential redemption" that secures nothing unless man adds to it.
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Yes, and a secured redemption is a applied redemption and not a potentially applied redemption
 
brightfame52 said:
Doing good is being given the Gift of Faith to believe on Christ, and doing evil is not having been given the Gift to believe on Christ, but to trust in themselves and their own self righteousness. So either way you have been refuted.
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Do you seriously think that if Jesus raised any unbelievers dead child to life, that parent still wouldn't believe in him?
Our Saviior did what he did so people would believe in him. Common sense has gone on vaca here.
 
journeyman said:
Do you seriously think that if Jesus raised any unbelievers dead child to life, that parent still wouldn't believe in him?
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Luke 16:31 And he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to [the messages of] Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’” .... apparently the answer can be YES

journeyman said:
Our Saviior did what he did so people would believe in him.
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Agreed. But not all people.
Premise 1: Billions of people have died having never heard of Christ
Premise 2: Knowledge of Christ is necessary for salvation (John 3:18)
Premise 3: God is all powerful
Conclusion: Limited Atonement

The angel told Joseph that Jesus would save His people from their sins, which limits the life and death purpose for which Immanuel came into the world.
  • Matthew 1:21 She will give birth to a Son, and you shall name Him Jesus (The Lord is salvation), for He will save His people from their sins.”
  • John 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but to do the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but that I [give new life and] raise it up at the last day.
Zacharias prophesied under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and He declared the certain effect of redemption, but He declared it only for God’s people.
  • Hebrews 2:13 And again [He says], “My trust and confident hope will be placed in Him.” And again, “Here I am, I and the children whom God has given Me.”
  • Luke 1:68 “Blessed (praised, glorified) be the Lord, the God of Israel, Because He has visited us and brought redemption to His people,
 
journeyman said:
Do you seriously think that if Jesus raised any unbelievers dead child to life, that parent still wouldn't believe in him?
Our Saviior did what he did so people would believe in him. Common sense has gone on vaca here.
Click to expand...
I have the slightest idea of what you talking about. This thread is about the Limited Atonement.
 
Fastfredy0 said:
Luke 16:31 And he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to [the messages of] Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’” .... apparently the answer can be YES
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Certainly the rich mans brothers may have chosen to believe Lazarus simply moved to another spot to beg. I'm not talking about someone they ignored while visiting their brother.

I'm asking you fredy. If Jesus, you and your wife were in a room where your dead daughter was and he brought her back to life, would you need anything other than that to believe in him?
Fastfredy0 said:
Agreed. But not all people.
Premise 1: Billions of people have died having never heard of Christ
Premise 2: Knowledge of Christ is necessary for salvation (John 3:18)
Premise 3: God is all powerful
Conclusion: Limited Atonement
Click to expand...
You're making the mistake that salvation is limited to people who have heard the name "Jesus", instead of what Jesus taught,

The men of Nineveh....repented at the preaching of Jonah Mt.12:41

The Ninevites never heard the name Jesus, but they heard what he said from Jonah.
Fastfredy0 said:
The angel told Joseph that Jesus would save His people from their sins, which limits the life and death purpose for which Immanuel came into the world.
  • Matthew 1:21 She will give birth to a Son, and you shall name Him Jesus (The Lord is salvation), for He will save His people from their sins.”
  • John 6:38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but to do the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but that I [give new life and] raise it up at the last day.
Zacharias prophesied under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, and He declared the certain effect of redemption, but He declared it only for God’s people.
  • Hebrews 2:13 And again [He says], “My trust and confident hope will be placed in Him.” And again, “Here I am, I and the children whom God has given Me.”
  • Luke 1:68 “Blessed (praised, glorified) be the Lord, the God of Israel, Because He has visited us and brought redemption to His people,
Click to expand...
By "Gods' people", they mean "believers."
The Calvanist belief that people have no ability within themselves to believe in the God who forgives the repentant, or that people are incapable by their own conscience of repentance isn't true because,

For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. Rom.1:17

Of course Paul is referring to the gospel Jesus himself taught, but he also refers to a time before Christ was born on earth (Rom.1:20.)

The knowledge that God exists and forgives the repentant goes back to our 1st human parents.
 
journeyman said:
It's only limited to believers,

Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth, while the evil days come not, nor the years draw nigh, when thou shalt say, I have no pleasure in them; Ecc.12:1
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True since He died only for those who eventually become believers. If a person never becomes a believer in the Truth Christ, its because Christ didnt die for that person.
 
journeyman said:
You're making the mistake that salvation is limited to people who have heard the name "Jesus", instead of what Jesus taught,
Click to expand...
John 3:18 Whoever believes and has decided to trust in Him [as personal Savior and Lord] is not judged [for this one, there is no judgment, no rejection, no condemnation]; but the one who does not believe [and has decided to reject Him as personal Savior and Lord] is judged already [that one has been convicted and sentenced], because he has not believed and trusted in the name of the [One and] only begotten Son of God [the One who is truly unique, the only One of His kind, the One who alone can save him].

Question 1: What must a person today who never heard of Christ do to be saved? Provide scripture verses
Question 2: Is the method you suggest in question 1 more effective than salvation in Christ? If so, should we use that method instead of telling others of Christ
Question 3: Assume a person who is saved via your answer to question 1. He hears of Christ and doesn't believe in Him. Is this person still saved? If he is not saved, should missionaries first inquire to see if the person who has never heard of Christ is saved by the method you pose in question 1 and then, if the answer is YES, avoid telling him about Christ for fear of destroying his salvation?
 
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