Limited atonement !

[Iconoclast]

You posted a mixture of truth and error, which amounts to heresy. We can discuss them one at a time where all scripture agrees.

I'm not suggesting anything. The Bible plainly says it,
For thou, Lord, art good, and ready to forgive; and plenteous in mercy unto all them that call upon thee. Psa.86:5

This does not address the sin question.

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom.3:24

Justification does not answer the sin question. On What basis does this take place?

His grace is seen by how he endured terrible abuse without without deciding to bash their stupid heads in instead.

This is totally unscriptural.

Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; Rom.3:25

Yes, He took the penalty for our sins , and turned away the wrath that was due to us.

To declare he turned his wrath away from people worthy of death.

Isa53 declares it, our sin laid upon Him, with His stripes we are healed.

His forbearance is for repentance, not substitution.

You have no answer for the sin question do you?

To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Rom.3:26

How is He JUST? I can answer that.

He justifies people who understand God has every right to condemn the ungodly, but will forgive anyone who repents.

You are avoiding the question. How are the sins punished? Psa86 does not address this.
There was no error or heresy posted. Put forth your case!

 

[journeyman]

Okay Jm, let's take a look.
rom1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
All men are under wrath for their sins.... All sin must be punished for God to be just.

The chastening spoken of in Hebrews 12, is the chastening of Christians for their personal sins as Christians. Jesus never committed sin of His own, so he never was chastised in this was.
Jesus was baptized by Johns baptism of repentance acting as a mediator for His Covenant people.

He had no need to do this.

This is not speaking of any chastisement at all, but being an obedient Servant as in phil.2

Correct.

You are maligning scripture, but so far it looks like accidentally as you seek to plug these verses in, but incorrectly.

No my friend, because it says,

Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. Heb.12:4

That's what Jesus did. Loving people who hated him. Chastiisment makes us like our Savior. It conforms us to his image.

 

[journeyman]

This does not address the sin question.

Justification does not answer the sin question. On What basis does this take place?

This is totally unscriptural.

Yes, He took the penalty for our sins , and turned away the wrath that was due to us.

Isa53 declares it, our sin laid upon Him, with His stripes we are healed.

You have no answer for the sin question do you?

How is He JUST? I can answer that.


You are avoiding the question. How are the sins punished? Psa86 does not address this.
There was no error or heresy posted. Put forth your case!

It seems you believe forgiven sin still needs to be unforgiven.

 

[Iconoclast]

No my friend, because it says,

Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. Heb.12:4

That's what Jesus did. Loving people who hated him. Chastiisment makes us like our Savior. It conforms us to his image.

You do not understand the Hebrews verses. Read the whole Chapter, it is urging the saints to strive after holiness. Jesus was Holy.

Wuest - The readers are reminded of the fact that the persecutions they were enduring, had not yet entailed the shedding of their blood, as was the case of Messiah, who became obedient to God the Father to the extent of death, yes, to such a death as that upon a cross. Their striving against sin was their battle against the temptation of renouncing their professed faith in Messiah in order that they might be relieved of the persecution which they were enduring. His striving against sin was His submitting to the death of the Cross, with all that that involved, His becoming sin for us, the breaking for the time of the fellowship between the Father and the Son, and all the intense and awful physical agony of crucifixion. (Hebrews Commentary)

 

[Iconoclast]

It seems you believe forgiven sin still needs to be unforgiven.

What is the basis of the forgiveness? What happened to your sin, so it could be paid for, and you could be forgiven...JUSTLY.
Justice demands a payment, otherwise it is unjust to forgive the sins of believers, while multitudes pay in hell eternally.

 

[Iconoclast]

Resisted (478) (antikathistemi from antí = against + kata = opposition against + histemi = place, stand) literally pictures one standing (histemi) face to face (anti) against (kata). Speaking of the disposition of troops, antikathistemi meant to stand in opposition against in a line of battle. In secular writings it has the meaning in of passive “holding out” rather than that of active aggression.

Your strife against sin has not entailed the shedding of your blood, as did that of many of the OT saints (heroes of faith in Heb 11:1ff, 11:35, 37) and of Jesus himself. Of Jesus Php 2:8, Heb 10:32ff. Heb 13:13 None of the readers of this book had yet been martyred (if they had been, they would not be reading the epistle!)

The point here is that things are bad, but not as bad as they could be. There is hostility and trouble and stress and suffering, but evidently no martyrs yet. We know from Heb 10:34 that some had been imprisoned and some had been plundered. But it is not yet martyrdom, though that could come. The stress level here is huge. How do you sleep at night when being a Christian may result in mob violence?

Hebrews 12:3-4 Commentary | Precept Austin

www.preceptaustin.org

 

[journeyman]

You do not understand the Hebrews verses. Read the whole Chapter, it is urging the saints to strive after holiness. Jesus was Holy.

I understand that. Believers who strive after holiness have ceased from sin,

Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; 1Pet.4:1

Wuest - The readers are reminded of the fact that the persecutions they were enduring, had not yet entailed the shedding of their blood, as was the case of Messiah, who became obedient to God the Father to the extent of death, yes, to such a death as that upon a cross. Their striving against sin was their battle against the temptation of renouncing their professed faith in Messiah in order that they might be relieved of the persecution which they were enduring. His striving against sin was His submitting to the death of the Cross, with all that that involved, His becoming sin for us, the breaking for the time of the fellowship between the Father and the Son, and all the intense and awful physical agony of crucifixion. (Hebrews Commentary)

No fellowship between the Father and Son could ever be broken. This filthy heresy about Jesus becoming sin, or a curse for us simply means he was slandered. The doctrine that God saw his Son as sin or cursed is false. Total bs.

 

[Iconoclast]

I understand that. Believers who strive after holiness have ceased from sin,

Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; 1Pet.4:1

No fellowship between the Father and Son could ever be broken. This filthy heresy about Jesus becoming sin, or a curse for us simply means he was slandered. The doctrine that God saw his Son as sin or cursed is false. Total bs.

Sorry you do not understand the cross
Here it is:
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
You need to believe this truth or you miss the cross

 

[journeyman]

What is the basis of the forgiveness?

Mercy.

What happened to your sin, so it could be paid for, and you could be forgiven...JUSTLY.

Forgiven sin isn't "paid for."

‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. Mt.18:32

Jesus wasn't justly put to death for sin. He was charged, convicted ans sentenced contrary to the law.

Justice demands a payment, otherwise it is unjust to forgive the sins of believers, while multitudes pay in hell eternally.

Mercy demands no payment. That's why I told you you're confusing mercy with justice. And neverending torment isn't taught in scripture.

 

[Iconoclast]

Mercy.

Forgiven sin isn't "paid for."

‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. Mt.18:32

Jesus wasn't justly put to death for sin. He was charged, convicted ans sentenced contrary to the law.

Mercy demands no payment. That's why I told you you're confusing mercy with justice. And neverending torment isn't taught in scripture.

Jesus is Jehovah God, the Covenant keeping God.
Eternal Torment is taught in scripture.
If sin is not punished justice does not take place,
mercy is not apart from the Divine substitute.
If you deny Jesus is God, you will never come to truth.

 

[journeyman]

Sorry you do not understand the cross
Here it is:
21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
You need to believe this truth or you miss the cross

Our Savior said,

If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. Mt.16:44

And so,

Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world 1Cor.4:13

Because that's what happened to Jesus. This is why Paul said,

I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, Phil.3:10

Paul didn't mean he wanted to know what a substitute feels like. He meant he wanted to know what it feels like to love people who hated him.

 

[Iconoclast]

Our Savior said,

If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. Mt.16:44

And so,

Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world 1Cor.4:13

Because that's what happened to Jesus. This is why Paul said,

I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, Phil.3:10

Paul didn't mean he wanted to know what a substitute feels like. He meant he wanted to know what it feels like to love people who hated him.

Do you believe that Jesus is God?

 

[journeyman]

Jesus is Jehovah God, the Covenant keeping God.

For that reason alone, Calvanism is heresy.

Eternal Torment is taught in scripture.
If sin is not punished justice does not take place

I never said unrepentant sinners won't be punished. Torment without end isn't justice. The unrepentant, along with the devil and all evil spirits will suffer torment before the judgement seat of Christ as their sins are exposed. Then their lives will end.

mercy is not apart from the Divine substitute.

Tell that to the substitute.

If you deny Jesus is God, you will never come to truth.

I'm not the one calling God cursed. Some of the religious leaders did that. And this is the only way Jesus was thought to be cursed,

And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree: His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God;) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance. Deu.21:22-23

No one is cursed for hanging on a tree. All are cursed for committing sin worthy of death.

 

[journeyman]

Do you believe that Jesus is God?

Of course. Do you believe God curses himself?

 

[journeyman]

I'm getting tired pal. I'm gonna turn in. Gob bless.

 

[brightfame52]

I've shown you many times, substitutionary or penal sacrifice isn't taught in the Bible.
You never comment on those passages. You simply ignore them.

lol, you have shown that you dont have a clue about Jesus Christ of scripture, who came to die in the place of chosen sinners.

 

[brightfame52]

Jesus displayed our Fathers' longsuffering.
Gods'' longsuffering isn't for the purpose of being punished in place of sinners. It's for the purpose of giving sinners time to repent.

You dont have any understanding of Jesus Christ of the scripture 1 Pet 3:18

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

He suffered and died[put to death] in the place of unjust sinners, He being the Just. The word for here is the prep hyper :

1. in behalf of, for the sake of, in the place of, instead of

It denotes Christ undergoing death for man's salvation,

 

[journeyman]

lol, you have shown that you dont have a clue about Jesus Christ of scripture, who came to die in the place of chosen sinners.

Your teachers have portrayed the God of the Bible as nothing more than a tribal diety who needs the blood of a sacrifice to forgive sin. Our Savior preached repentance for the forgivness of sin.

 

[journeyman]

You dont have any understanding of Jesus Christ of the scripture 1 Pet 3:18

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

He suffered and died[put to death] in the place of unjust sinners, He being the Just. The word for here is the prep hyper :

1. in behalf of, for the sake of, in the place of, instead of

It denotes Christ undergoing death for man's salvation,

Since Peter was drawing a conclusion, you've ignored the verse before it.
Also, it's a good study habit to examine every instance where "hyper" is used.

Very simply put, if Jesus would not endure the ungodly sinning against him, the only alternative would be to destroy them. So, he endured wrongful treatment for their sake, which has nothing to do with substitution.

 

[brightfame52]

Christs death is limited to them He obtained Eternal Redemption for, since what He obtains for us He lives to ensure the application of it Heb 9:12

neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Now by His own Blood signifies His Death, which by it He obtained eternal redemption for certain ones. Now who are they?

Recall back in Chapter 1 vs 14

Heb 1:14

14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

Its the heirs. Notice again Heb 6:17-18

. 17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath: 18 that by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us

And the heirs of promise dont just consist of some jews, but some Gentiles, the Church the Body of Christ Gal 3:29

And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. 17