John MacArthur: Continualists do not exist, everyone is a Cessationist or Inventionist

[Alfred Persson]

I don't think that what I have related to you is merely hearsay.

It is sure testimony given by two or three witnesses.

Just as the testimony of the apostles that Jesus is risen from the dead is sure testimony; and yet not believed by some.

You can be certain that the testimony of a pastor is a reliable witness. Such a person believes that all liars shall have their part in the lake of fire (Revelation 21:8).

The bible is the "Word of God", therefore any witness it gives through apostles or others is impeccable, beyond reproach.

As for the pastor, "I can't be certain".

Everything is through you and I have to take your word this pastor exists, is truthful, and actually saw what you describe.

If I wanted to establish the miraculous works Christ and His apostles "continue" today, I would hire expert examiners, scientists, medical experts etc.,, listing their credentials.

Also all other witnesses, like your Pastor with a bio and phone number where he can be reached.

Then post their findings online, with contact information.

That should be easy. And affordable for any church.

The only reason NOT to do this, is if the alleged "continuation" isn't all its advertised to be.

 

[justbyfaith]

The bible is the "Word of God", therefore any witness it gives through apostles or others is impeccable, beyond reproach.

As for the pastor, "I can't be certain".

Everything is through you and I have to take your word this pastor exists, is truthful, and actually saw what you describe.

If I wanted to establish the miraculous works Christ and His apostles "continue" today, I would hire expert examiners, scientists, medical experts etc.,, listing their credentials.

Also all other witnesses, like your Pastor with a bio and phone number where he can be reached.

Then post their findings online, with contact information.

That should be easy. And affordable for any church.

The only reason NOT to do this, is if the alleged "continuation" isn't all its advertised to be.

Even if you heard it from the horse's mouth, I don't think that you would believe it.

Because you already have an inclination to not believe it.

It's kind of like when in scripture Abraham says to the rich man, "they have Moses and the prophets. Let them hear them." And the man said, "no; but if someone rises from the dead, they will believe" and Abraham says, "If they don't believe Moses and the prophets, neither will they believe, though someone rise from the dead."

btw, how is a medical examiner or scientist going to be able to judge whether someone heard something in their own language or not? Would you recruit them in order to discredit the facts by diagnosing the person who heard the tongues as mentally unstable?

 

[Alfred Persson]

Even if you heard it from the horse's mouth, I don't think that you would believe it.

Because you already have an inclination to not believe it.

It's kind of like when in scripture Abraham says to the rich man, "they have Moses and the prophets. Let them hear them." And the man said, "no; but if someone rises from the dead, they will believe" and Abraham says, "If they don't believe Moses and the prophets, neither will they believe, though someone rise from the dead."

btw, how is a medical examiner or scientist going to be able to judge whether someone heard something in their own language or not? Would you recruit them in order to discredit the facts by diagnosing the person who heard the tongues as mentally unstable?

Incorrect.

I was baptized in Bethany Christian, a four-square Pentecostal Church. I can't count how often I said: "We can't throw the Baby out with the Bathwater" whenever the "tongues and prophecy" in church was clearly "of the flesh" and not "of the Spirit."

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof"-Carl Sagan, "The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark," Carl Sagan.

This is where Pentecostals failed their mission. They haven't "verified" or "authenticated" the supernatural is occurring in their churches.

The burden of proof is on Pentecostals.

All who claim supernatural events are occurring in their churches today should authenticate them by rigorous investigation and examination. The evidence must be analyzed by a team of experts, to make sure the phenomenon cannot be explained by natural or scientific means. That miracles are truly happening.

Also, Lovers of God's Truth insist the "fact pattern" be 100% consistent with the Bible.

For example, it is impossible to claim the "fallible prophecy" appearing in Pentecostal churches today is the same "word of the Lord" spoken in the Bible because Scripture declares "fallible prophecy" is "the thing which the LORD has not spoken."

21 "And if you say in your heart,`How shall we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?'--
22 "when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him. (Deut. 18:21-22 NKJ)

To illustrate, if I claimed I can prophesy future events, I would produce a list of authenticated prophecies where a team of experts verified I correctly foretold specific future events in an unambiguous manner. Without that "extraordinary proof" no one should believe my "extraordinary claim".

So why haven't Pentecostal churches authenticated the supernatural in their churches?

Without it, Bible Believers cannot accept their claims as true.

 

[justbyfaith]

Incorrect.

I was baptized in Bethany Christian, a four-square Pentecostal Church. I can't count how often I said: "We can't throw the Baby out with the Bathwater" whenever the "tongues and prophecy" in church was clearly "of the flesh" and not "of the Spirit."

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof"-Carl Sagan, "The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark," Carl Sagan.

This is where Pentecostals failed their mission. They haven't "verified" or "authenticated" the supernatural is occurring in their churches.

The burden of proof is on Pentecostals.

All who claim supernatural events are occurring in their churches today should authenticate them by rigorous investigation and examination. The evidence must be analyzed by a team of experts, to make sure the phenomenon cannot be explained by natural or scientific means. That miracles are truly happening.

Also, Lovers of God's Truth insist the "fact pattern" be 100% consistent with the Bible.

For example, it is impossible to claim the "fallible prophecy" appearing in Pentecostal churches today is the same "word of the Lord" spoken in the Bible because Scripture declares "fallible prophecy" is "the thing which the LORD has not spoken."

21 "And if you say in your heart,`How shall we know the word which the LORD has not spoken?'--
22 "when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him. (Deut. 18:21-22 NKJ)

To illustrate, if I claimed I can prophesy future events, I would produce a list of authenticated prophecies where a team of experts verified I correctly foretold specific future events in an unambiguous manner. Without that "extraordinary proof" no one should believe my "extraordinary claim".

So why haven't Pentecostal churches authenticated the supernatural in their churches?

Without it, Bible Believers cannot accept their claims as true.

Jesus performed many signs and did many miracles of healing the day before the scribes and Pharisees demanded of Him a sign.

He then proceeded to tell them that a wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign and shall receive none except the sign of the prophet Jonah...definable as the fact that the Son of man would be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth; and rise again from the dead.

But the reason why they would not get a sign is because they would not believe a sign.

For many signs and wonders had already been performed right there in front of them.

As a matter of fact, Jesus had just finished multiplying the loaves and fishes for the second time (Matthew 15:32-16:4).

 

[justbyfaith]

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof"-Carl Sagan, "The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark," Carl Sagan.

I see where you are getting your input and who you are being "fed" by...an abject skeptical unbeliever.

No wonder you are an unbeliever yourself (at least, as concerning the continuation of spiritual gifts in the body of Christ today)!

You would do well to cease from listening to words that will cause you to stray from the words of knowledge (Proverbs 19:27 (kjv)).

 

[Alfred Persson]

Jesus performed many signs and did many miracles of healing the day before the scribes and Pharisees demanded of him a sign.

He then proceeded to tell them that wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sign and shall receive none except the sign of the prophet Jonah...definable as the fact that the Son of man would be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth; and rise again from the dead.

But the reason why they would not get a sign is because they would not believe a sign.

For many signs and wonders had already been performed right there in front of them.

As a matter of fact, Jesus had just finished multiplying the loaves and fishes for the second time (Matthew 15:32-16:4).

Circular reasoning, the implied premise of your argument is "continuism is true", to conclude "continuism is true."

Jesus' miracles are impeccable, modern "manifestations" are not. The facts show Jesus' miracles have not continued to manifest themselves in churches today.

It is written:
"We ought to obey God rather than men. (Acts 5:29 NKJ)

God commands we "test the spirits"

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. (1 Jn. 4:1 NKJ)

We are commanded to "test whether the supernatural in church is of God", and "hold fast what is good" abstaining from every form of evil:

21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.
22 Abstain from every form of evil. (1 Thess. 5:21-22 NKJ)

God commands all "Examine yourselves" to be certain spiritual experiences are "in the faith"

Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. (2 Cor. 13:5 NKJ)

A Personal Testimony of "Testing myself":

As a Pentecostal I believed the Holy Spirit would respond to questions with "a leading" that was either "yes" or "no". I believed that 100% for a couple of years.

Over time it became apparent I often went in circles and accomplished nothing for Christ. So I decided to "test" the "leading", I walked to the corner and asked "should I turn left or right?" The "leading" indicated "turn right". So I went left, and as I walked I began to justify why turning right was the correct thing to do, and the "leading" assured me I was right!

That's when I realized it was all experiential delusion, a fabrication of my mind. I confess, at first I was both heartbroken and dismayed, feeling I had lost someone close to me.

But after a while the feeling of liberation became overwhelming, I realized what a slave I was to that "leading". And the "brain fog" that buried my critical thinking skills went away, and I regained my ability to reason soundly.

And it was by a process of sound evaluation on the "fact pattern" surrounding modern "manifestations of the supernatural" that led to my rejection of them and joining the Cessationist side of the issue.

The Bible alone is 100% reliable and true, experiences are subjective and delusionary.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I see where you are getting your input and who you are being "fed" by...an abject skeptical unbeliever.

No wonder you are an unbeliever yourself (at least, as concerning the continuation of spiritual gifts in the body of Christ today)!

You would do well to cease from listening to words that will cause you to stray from the words of knowledge (Proverbs 19:27 (kjv)).

Critical Thinking is a method that is universal for sound thinking. Although I reject any denigration of the authority of scripture, that doesn't change the method used to arrive at truth. 2+2=4 whether one reads that in the Bible, or in something else. Math doesn't change, neither does logical deduction and inference from facts to reality.

We are commanded to Examine ourselves. The implied premise is we must examine ourselves in a sound fashion, using objective criteria.

Carl Sagon promoted critical thinking, said nothing against Christianity. Sagan's main focus was promoting critical thinking and the scientific approach as a means to evaluate claims about the natural world, including those stemming from religious beliefs. He argues that while spirituality and religious faith can be deeply personal and meaningful to individuals, they should not be exempt from rational examination. Sagan encourages readers to question dogmas, examine evidence, and approach religious claims with a skeptical yet open mindset.

That is why "Apologetic websites exist", the evidence is examined and sound critical reasons for believing in God can be given.

The method Sagan promotes is consistent with our defense of the true Faith:


15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear; 16 having a good conscience, that when they defame you as evildoers, those who revile your good conduct in Christ may be ashamed. (1 Pet. 3:15 NKJ)

 

[justbyfaith]

Circular reasoning, the implied premise of your argument is "continuism is true", to conclude "continuism is true."

Jesus' miracles are impeccable, modern "manifestations" are not. The facts show Jesus' miracles have not continued to manifest themselves in churches today.

It is written:
"We ought to obey God rather than men. (Acts 5:29 NKJ)

God commands we "test the spirits"

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. (1 Jn. 4:1 NKJ)

We are commanded to "test whether the supernatural in church is of God", and "hold fast what is good" abstaining from every form of evil:

21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.
22 Abstain from every form of evil. (1 Thess. 5:21-22 NKJ)

God commands all "Examine yourselves" to be certain spiritual experiences are "in the faith"

Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. (2 Cor. 13:5 NKJ)

A Personal Testimony of "Testing myself":

As a Pentecostal I believed the Holy Spirit would respond to questions with "a leading" that was either "yes" or "no". I believed that 100% for a couple of years.

Over time it became apparent I often went in circles and accomplished nothing for Christ. So I decided to "test" the "leading", I walked to the corner and asked "should I turn left or right?" The "leading" indicated "turn right". So I went left, and as I walked I began to justify why turning right was the correct thing to do, and the "leading" assured me I was right!

That's when I realized it was all experiential delusion, a fabrication of my mind. I confess, at first I was both heartbroken and dismayed, feeling I had lost someone close to me.

But after a while the feeling of liberation became overwhelming, I realized what a slave I was to that "leading". And the "brain fog" that buried my critical thinking skills went away, and I regained my ability to reason soundly.

And it was by a process of sound evaluation on the "fact pattern" surrounding modern "manifestations of the supernatural" that led to my rejection of them and joining the Cessationist side of the issue.

The Bible alone is 100% reliable and true, experiences are subjective and delusionary.

I have seen real miracles happen in churches.

I was in one church and there was hype that the preacher who was visiting that day had raised the dead. And there was a man there who had a broken arm. I tried to move his arm and heal it, but he expressed pain in that; so I told him that when the preacher prayed for him that he should move it himself.

It was approximately five minutes later that he was suddenly praising the Lord and moving his arm around and exclaiming that he had been healed.

In the same service, the preacher encouraged the people to operate in words of knowledge; and there were multiple words about someone with kidney failure. Someone finally stood up; the preacher told the people around her to pray for her; and then she began to laugh, saying that the way she felt in that moment was the best she had felt in her entire life. She had had kidney problems since she was 2.

But you will come up with some kind of excuse not to believe this testimony; and therefore I say that you are simply predisposed towards unbelief; just like the scribes and Pharisees who would not be given a sign even though Jesus was performing miracles left and right.

The scribes and Pharisees said at one point, we know that God spoke to Moses and we are Moses' disciples; but they did not believe in Jesus who had healed a man born blind right in front of them.

They could believe in miracles that were testified of in what they knew to be holy scripture; but miracles that were right in front of them they could not believe in.

This is because, if the miracles that were performed by Moses had been done for them in their present day, they would not have believed in them, either.

 

[justbyfaith]

Mal 3:6, For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Heb 13:8, Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

 

[Alfred Persson]

I have seen real miracles happen in churches.

I was in one church and there was hype that the preacher who was visiting that day had raised the dead. And there was a man there who had a broken arm. I tried to move his arm and heal it, but he expressed pain in that; so I told him that when the preacher prayed for him that he should move it himself.

It was approximately five minutes later that he was suddenly praising the Lord and moving his arm around and exclaiming that he had been healed.

In the same service, the preacher encouraged the people to operate in words of knowledge; and there were multiple words about someone with kidney failure. Someone finally stood up; the preacher told the people around her to pray for her; and then she began to laugh, saying that the way she felt in that moment was the best she had felt in her entire life. She had had kidney problems since she was 2.

But you will come up with some kind of excuse not to believe this testimony; and therefore I say that you are simply predisposed towards unbelief; just like the scribes and Pharisees who would not be given a sign even though Jesus was performing miracles left and right.

The scribes and Pharisees said at one point, we know that God spoke to Moses and we are Moses' disciples; but they did not believe in Jesus who had healed a man born blind right in front of them.

They could believe in miracles that were testified of in what they knew to be holy scripture; but miracles that were right in front of them they could not believe in.

This is because, if the miracles that were performed by Moses had been done for them in their present day, they would not have believed in them, either.

The flaw in your comparison of me to the Pharisees, is they SAW Jesus do miracles only God could do. I have not seen Pentecostals do anything remotely like Jesus' miracles.

As for your reply, its evasive. The glaring fact not one Pentecostal Church scientifically documents the miraculous is happening in their church implies its not happening. The people in charge know its not real.

Also, you don't post under your real name, yet I'm supposed to believe your claims of miraculous? Why?

I don't know your name, where you live, or your church. Can't ask your neighbors what kind of person you are. Can't google search anything.

Tell your church to document the miracles before scientists and expert witnesses. Have them post it online so I can check it out.

 

[justbyfaith]

The flaw in your comparison of me to the Pharisees, is they SAW Jesus do miracles only God could do. I have not seen Pentecostals do anything remotely like Jesus' miracles.

As for your reply, its evasive. The glaring fact not one Pentecostal Church scientifically documents the miraculous is happening in their church implies its not happening. The people in charge know its not real.

Also, you don't post under your real name, yet I'm supposed to believe your claims of miraculous? Why?

I don't know your name, where you live, or your church. Can't ask your neighbors what kind of person you are. Can't google search anything.

Tell your church to document the miracles before scientists and expert witnesses. Have them post it online so I can check it out.

The place where I saw the miracle was not my own church. I was visiting "Promised Land" in San Francisco.

Why don't you check out that church and go and see if they have had miracles and whether or not they still have miracles?

I think that even if things were scientifically documented, you would not believe.

It is established scientifically that when prayer is involved in the treatment of someone with terminal cancer or some other such illness, that the prognosis improves for that person by a great percentage.

I myself was diagnosed with cancer. We called upon the church to pray, and all the cancer was removed, praise the Lord! I am cancer-free today because of the prayers of the saints.

I suppose that you can say that this is also documented.

But of course it is also a matter of faith.

Because you, in your unbelief, could try to say that prayer made no difference; that they would have gotten all the cancer out whether or not there was prayer.

I give glory and credit to God where glory and credit is due.

I believe that it is a true miracle.

 

[Alfred Persson]

The place where I saw the miracle was not my own church. I was visiting "Promised Land" in San Francisco.

Why don't you check out that church and go and see if they have had miracles and whether or not they still have miracles?

I think that even if things were scientifically documented, you would not believe.

It is established scientifically that when prayer is involved in the treatment of someone with terminal cancer or some other such illness, that the prognosis improves for that person by a great percentage.

I myself was diagnosed with cancer. We called upon the church to pray, and all the cancer was removed, praise the Lord! I am cancer-free today because of the prayers of the saints.

I suppose that you can say that this is also documented.

But of course it is also a matter of faith.

Because you, in your unbelief, could try to say that prayer made no difference; that they would have gotten all the cancer out whether or not there was prayer.

I give glory and credit to God where glory and credit is due.

I believe that it is a true miracle.

God still heals today in answer to prayer, the Bible says so:

14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.
15 And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. (Jas. 5:14-15 NKJ)

I Thank God for your cure!

God doesn't always heal, recall Paul advised Timothy to drink wine with his meals, because of stomach problems:

No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for your stomach's sake and your frequent infirmities. (1 Tim. 5:23 NKJ)

Nor do I categorically deny God will work miracles today. I'm just asking for proof.

If I claim to be a prophet, I would post online documented prophecies that independent experts could prove came true.

But I don't claim to be a prophet. You do claim the miraculous is occurring. All I asked for was documented proof.

That you can't produce it casts severe doubt about your claims.

I am not the problem. Those making extraordinary claims should provide extraordinary proof, and the churches claiming to do the miraculous don't even provide "ordinary proof."

 

[justbyfaith]

God still heals today in answer to prayer, the Bible says so:

14 Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.
15 And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. (Jas. 5:14-15 NKJ)

I Thank God for your cure!

God doesn't always heal, recall Paul advised Timothy to drink wine with his meals, because of stomach problems:

No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for your stomach's sake and your frequent infirmities. (1 Tim. 5:23 NKJ)

Nor do I categorically deny God will work miracles today. I'm just asking for proof.

If I claim to be a prophet, I would post online documented prophecies that independent experts could prove came true.

But I don't claim to be a prophet. You do claim the miraculous is occurring. All I asked for was documented proof.

That you can't produce it casts severe doubt about your claims.

I am not the problem. Those making extraordinary claims should provide extraordinary proof, and the churches claiming to do the miraculous don't even provide "ordinary proof."

It would take some effort to produce documented proof concerning certain claims of healing.

Since we believe or don't believe these claims of healing on the basis of faith (and because those who don't believe are told that they will receive no sign but the sign of the prophet Jonah),

it is customary to not provide documented proof of healings that have taken place.

Now, I have seen the gems that have fallen into rooms where the manifest presence of the Holy Spirit was evident; and the people who had these gems were not wealthy by any means; so that they could purchase them in order to show them off as miracles.

But they are like documented proof of the fact that God does miracles; and yet people scoff.

They are a wicked and adulterous generation that seeks after a sign and shall receive none.

Because although the signs are right in front of them, they will not believe...they will come up with some sort of explanation as to why it is not really a miracle.

 

[Alfred Persson]

It would take some effort to produce documented proof concerning certain claims of healing.

Since we believe or don't believe these claims of healing on the basis of faith (and because those who don't believe are told that they will receive no sign but the sign of the prophet Jonah),

it is customary to not provide documented proof of healings that have taken place.

Now, I have seen the gems that have fallen into rooms where the manifest presence of the Holy Spirit was evident; and the people who had these gems were not wealthy by any means; so that they could purchase them in order to show them off as miracles.

But they are like documented proof of the fact that God does miracles; and yet people scoff.

They are a wicked and adulterous generation that seeks after a sign and shall receive none.

Because although the signs are right in front of them, they will not believe...they will come up with some sort of explanation as to why it is not really a miracle.

That was very inventive, turning the tables citing the sign of Jonah.

Inventive, but the flaw is history. Pentecostalism's "miracles" have been here over 100 years. Their failure to provide proof for sincere honest seekers of truth, is inexcusable.

And inexplicable if they are genuine miracles. They should be shouting the proof from the rooftops.

Its so simple, yet so impossible. Simple for a church actually doing the miraculous, to appear at Grace Community Church proving to McArthur how wrong he is, in front of his congregation....yet so impossible, because proving him wrong would require real miracles, and not the poor substitute appearing among Pentecostals today.

 

[justbyfaith]

That was very inventive, turning the tables citing the sign of Jonah.

Inventive, but the flaw is history. Pentecostalism's "miracles" have been here over 100 years. Their failure to provide proof for sincere honest seekers of truth, is inexcusable.

And inexplicable if they are genuine miracles. They should be shouting the proof from the rooftops.

Its so simple, yet so impossible. Simple for a church actually doing the miraculous, to appear at Grace Community Church proving to McArthur how wrong he is, in front of his congregation....yet so impossible, because proving him wrong would require real miracles, and not the poor substitute appearing among Pentecostals today.

Real miracles are not believed by a specific group of people no matter how evident they become.

They are explained away and disregarded as being not true miracles.

The gems that have appeared in certain congregations being a case in point.

I have also seen gold fall on specific people and a speck fell on me out of nowhere as I asked the Lord about something as if in answer to my prayer (God giving me a sign in response to the question I was asking). I have also had specks of gold fall into my Bible and some of them I still have in some of my Bibles to this day. But if you are not inclined to believe, I am not inclined to show them to you; because you are not worthy to see it.

It has been said that believing is seeing and that the opposite is not so true. Seeing is not always believing; and if you don't believe, you won't see the miracle even though it is made manifest right in front of you.

But if you believe, it opens up a door of possibility, that when miracles happen, you will be able to discern that they are actual miracles because you are not looking at those miracles through a lens of unbelief.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Real miracles are not believed by a specific group of people no matter how evident they become.

They are explained away and disregarded as being not true miracles.

The gems that have appeared in certain congregations being a case in point.

I have also seen gold fall on specific people and a speck fell on me out of nowhere as I asked the Lord about something as if in answer to my prayer (God giving me a sign in response to the question I was asking). I have also had specks of gold fall into my Bible and some of them I still have in some of my Bibles to this day. But if you are not inclined to believe, I am not inclined to show them to you; because you are not worthy to see it.

It has been said that believing is seeing and that the opposite is not so true. Seeing is not always believing; and if you don't believe, you won't see the miracle even though it is made manifest right in front of you.

But if you believe, it opens up a door of possibility, that when miracles happen, you will be able to discern that they are actual miracles because you are not looking at those miracles through a lens of unbelief.

19 Do not quench the Spirit.
20 Do not despise prophecies.
21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.
22 Abstain from every form of evil. (1 Thess. 5:19-22 NKJ)

I am commanded not to quench the Spirit by despising prophecy, but to "test all things". I cannot disobey Scripture.

Without proof, I cannot know it is "good".

 

[justbyfaith]

19 Do not quench the Spirit.
20 Do not despise prophecies.
21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.
22 Abstain from every form of evil. (1 Thess. 5:19-22 NKJ)

I am commanded not to quench the Spirit by despising prophecy, but to "test all things". I cannot disobey Scripture.

Without proof, I cannot know it is "good".

What is "good" is what is morally good; such as a healing.

Supernatural occurrences that are not good are not to be held to.

Things like the powers of the X-men are things that fall under the category of lying signs and wonders because they do not produce a good result but are in every case used offensively in battle.

You can know that something is "good" simply by looking at it. You do not need a medical examiner to be able to know that someone is healed by the power of the Holy Ghost. When they begin to express joy over how much better they are feeling, it should be proof enough.

Otherwise, you are expressing unbelief over the fact that it has not been put through scientific tests and proven to be the reality?

As I said before, it is scientifically proven that when there is prayer involved, those who are diagnosed with severe problems have a much better prognosis. They have put it through hypothetical procedure, with control groups and every thing.

So, why not believe in the ability of the Lord to heal today?

You yourself may need for Him to heal you some day.

And if, in that day, you continue to be skeptical, your skepticism may be the factor that prevents Him from being able to heal you. "And He could not do many miracles there because of their unbelief." (Matthew 13:58, Mark 6:5).

 

[Alfred Persson]

What is "good" is what is morally good; such as a healing.

Supernatural occurrences that are not good are not to be held to.

Things like the powers of the X-men are things that fall under the category of lying signs and wonders because they do not produce a good result but are in every case used offensively in battle.

You can know that something is "good" simply by looking at it. You do not need a medical examiner to be able to know that someone is healed by the power of the Holy Ghost. When they begin to express joy over how much better they are feeling, it should be proof enough.

Otherwise, you are expressing unbelief over the fact that it has not been put through scientific tests and proven to be the reality?

As I said before, it is scientifically proven that when there is prayer involved, those who are diagnosed with severe problems have a much better prognosis. They have put it through hypothetical procedure, with control groups and every thing.

So, why not believe in the ability of the Lord to heal today?

You yourself may need for Him to heal you some day.

And if, in that day, you continue to be skeptical, your skepticism may be the factor that prevents Him from being able to heal you. "And He could not do many miracles there because of their unbelief." (Matthew 13:58, Mark 6:5).

God heals today, who told you I did not believe that?

Because scripture COMMANDS "test the supernatural claiming to be of the Holy Spirit", I do in obedience to scripture.

19 Do not quench the Spirit.
20 Do not despise prophecies.
21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.
22 Abstain from every form of evil. (1 Thess. 5:19-22 NKJ)

I am not misinterpreting this.

Here is an exegetical summary of how accepted Commentaries [Commentary Names are in brackets] interpreting this:

QUESTION—What does πάντα ‘all things’ refer to and how can they be tested?
1. This refers specifically to prophetic utterances [Ea, Hn, My, NCBC, TH, WBC; NEB]: do not despise prophecies, but test all utterances which claim to be prophecy in order to determine whether or not they are truly inspired by the Holy Spirit. Some tests are determining if they are consistent with previous revelation [Hb, Hn, NCBC, WBC], noting if they recognize Christ as Lord (1 Cor. 12:3) [WBC].
2. This refers to all spiritual gifts [Alf, EBC, El, HNTC, ICC]: do not quench the Spirit, especially prophecies, but test all things involved in spiritual gifts to see if they are truly inspired by the Holy Spirit. This includes testing the aforementioned prophecies [ICC]. They are to judge if it promotes what is good for the church [EBC, ICC].
3. This is a general principle that applies to all things that affect their spiritual lives [Fn, Hb, Lns, NIC]: test all things. Some things that appear good on the surface may be found to be evil upon examination [NIC]. This includes the testing of prophetic utterances [Fn, Hb]. They are tested in regard to how they conform to scripture [Lns].-Blight, R. C. (2008). An Exegetical Summary of 1 & 2 Thessalonians (2nd ed., p. 167). SIL International.

I have experienced the supernatural, and its ONLY because I obeyed this and similar commands by God to test, that I was not deceived.

My tests are fair in accordance with scripture:

As Dr. R.C.H. Lenski [Lns} says: "They are tested in regard to how they conform to scripture."

All this begs the question why Pentecostals haven't convinced scientists the miraculous is happening in their churches?

The "burden of proof" is on them, not me.

 

[justbyfaith]

Glad to hear that you are not in denial of the fact that Jesus heals today.

I don't think we have any reason to be arguing with each other.

 

[TMal3]

From Frame 5:15

The Pastor says:

"I think the argument is when you read the chapter and you see how unique the apostles were and when they passed away what finality that was; that defines cessationism when you cease to have apostles you cease to have the signs that were unique to the apostles. So when someone says he's Cessationist…[he doesn't] mean the Holy Spirit ceased to work or Christ ceased to work. I only mean that the things that attended the apostles have ceased when the apostles ceased." -John MacArthur

"One of the arguments I've made is that every charismatic except the really bizarre quirky ones if you take the better charismatics the ones whose theology are more on the sound end of the spectrum they're all Cessationists as well because and in fact they would admit this. Wayne grudem says contemporary prophecy the prophecies we're hearing today are fallible; everybody would acknowledge that the tongues people speak today are not like the tongues at Pentecost, they're not translatable languages. So clearly something has changed and unless you want to deny that you've embraced the kind of cessationism." - Interviewer

[John MaCarthur resumes]
"Yeah you just put your finger on what I think is the knockout punch in the final chapter of the book. The last chapter is an open letter to my continuationist friends---and my continuation friends are my friends even friends theologically in many cases, and they want to be continuationist. But in that chapter and exactly what Phil said is the case:

• they believe in tongues that aren't languages whereas clearly in the New Testament they were languages.
• they believe in miracles that aren't necessarily like the miracles Jesus and the apostles did.
• and they say that they believe in revelation divine revelation but not infallible revelation.

So they have miracles that aren't the same as the New Testament, miracles terms that aren't the same as the New Testament, tongues prophecies that aren't the same as the New Testament prophecies, that's not continuation that is cessation and inventing something else.

So we need to come up with a new name for them you know they are "inventionists". I don't know what but that that is not a continuity--- once you say it's not what was then you're not really a continuationist. So I try to back them into a corner and make them admit that they're not really continuationist but rather they're guilty of putting the stamp of divine approval and labeling the work of the Holy Spirit on things that have no biblical parallel."-John MacArthur

Just the opposite actually. Cessationists don't really exist, and acknowledge that God can still heal and do miracles today. Even MacArthur believes this