John MacArthur: Continualists do not exist, everyone is a Cessationist or Inventionist

[Deidr]

What God began in the first century, specifically on the Day of Pentecost continues today. Apostles, prophets, tongues both in earthly languages and heavenly language(s) continues today. I have first hand knowledge of tongues and of interpretation.
AND if someone gives a prophecy it matters not whether it is earthly language or of heaven. The interpreter who steps out in faith to interpret into the local language (but this is not set in stone) does not necessarily have to know the language but gives the interpretation through the unction from the Holy Spirit. All he/she has to do is SPEAK what is within them.

Was Paul saying He spoke in the language of angels?

 

[Deidr]

And this the other

Praying "In the Spirit"

Istanbul, Turkey This morning at Redeemer I'm preaching out of Ephesians 6:18-20 and Philippians 1:3-11, on "praying in the Spirit." N...

www.johnpiippo.com

To pray "in the Spirit" is to pray, connected with the Spirit because Jesus-followers are new creations "in Christ." This is about our new ontological status, rather than some "method" of praying. It relates to what Jesus said in John 14-15 about "abiding" in him.

This is prayer as a "conversation." This is prayer-as-relationship."

These "in"-phrases refer to dwelling consciously in the presence of the Holy Spirit himself, a presence characterized by the Godlike qualities of power, love, joy, truth, holiness, righteousness, and peace. To pray “in the Holy Spirit” is to pray with the conscious awareness of God’s presence surrounding us and sanctifying both us and our prayers. (See Wayne Grudem, Systematic Theology
by Piippo

 

[Deidr]

Romans 8
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered

 

[Deidr]

Romans 8
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered

 

[Just_Michael]

Now, I will quote you, and you specifically since from what little I've seen on these boards, you are an agitator and agent provacateur.

You didn't identify who you are replying to, I assume its me. The "scientific method" cannot prove Christ existed, or did miracles. Or any historical event. To prove things in history or philosophy, you need legal historical proof.

We can't repeatedly slay Christ, and watch Him rise, in a lab. That's what a scientist needs to believe in His resurrection.

I don't twist. I am factual, logical, and support my scripture claims with scripture references. If you disagree with a conclusion, rather than smear me as a "twister", prove me wrong by the Scripture. Or logic. Or History. But until you can fit me in a lab vial and turn on the Bunson burner, "scientific method" isn't available to you.

1. No one asked Christ to step into a lab.
2. Scientists do not need to use a lab, or even the scientific method to prove God exists; it can be done by reductive logic.
3. You do twist, implying meanings to words where it is convenient for you to do so, despite the fact that I have been explicitly clear, to the point of definining the terms I am using so there is no confusion.
4. Science does prove God exists by using deduction from what is known. It's the entire point of having an amygdala in the brain. Clearly, God wants us to use pattern-recognition, or he wouldn't have given us the neurolgical faculties to engage in it.
5. The scientific method is available to anyone, anywhere, at any time. You do not have a monopoly on what constitutes scientific inquiry.
6. You have yet to refute a single claim of mine using the same rubric as I; you are attempting to use semantics and overloaded tautologies to make your point, despite the fact that I have clearly removed them entirely from the argument. Your efforts to cloud the issue by reintroducing them is as apparent as it is blatant.

Do they not teach debate class anymore in high school? You have failed in every single point you have made, and made such an obnoxious appearance that I don't care what your response is--I'm not interested. And that is enetirely your fault, and something explicitly prohibited in scripture. We as believers are not to attack what another believer chooses to find holy to honor God, and if I find God's holiness in the symmetry of mathematics, who are you to tell me God isn't there? Cue the crickets sound track.

 

[Deidr]

Romans 8
Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered

Inexpressible groanings
So from the Bible's Teaching

When one prays in glossa whose praying?
If it's your Spirit then it's without your mind?

If one says it's the Holy Spirit then scripture says it's groanings that cannot be uttered.

So from scripture how does one rectify this.
Now don't get me wrong I believe in the true gift of a person speaking another language not their own. And I've never saw it personally.

I've read an article years ago on what Mac Author had to say, and what others thought too, and then there is my understanding. And Paul met people where they were at... Just because the Corinthians may have been new Converts that didn't mean everything they lived previously went out the window. THEY WERE AT ONE TIME CARRIED AWAY BY PAGANISTIC PRACTICES FROM WHAT I RECALL.

1 Cor 12:2

Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

Question how were they carried away by them?

Paul said He would become like others to win them over.....
What if we were to come at people directly? they may stop listening.

Paul most likely spoke various languages for He was a scholar. And I think Mac Author mentions that He believed there were 2 different uses for the term Glossa. Like either tongues or tongue, that when Paul used one of those He was talking about the true gift and the other was the counterfeit one.

 

[Deidr]

Inexpressible groanings
So from the Bible's Teaching

When one prays in glossa whose praying?
If it's your Spirit then it's without your mind?

If one says it's the Holy Spirit then scripture says it's groanings that cannot be uttered.

So from scripture how does one rectify this.
Now don't get me wrong I believe in the true gift of a person speaking another language not their own. And I've never saw it personally.

I've read an article years ago on what Mac Author had to say, and what others thought too, and then there is my understanding. And Paul met people where they were at... Just because the Corinthians may have been new Converts that didn't mean everything they lived previously went out the window. THEY WERE AT ONE TIME CARRIED AWAY BY PAGANISTIC PRACTICES FROM WHAT I RECALL.

1 Cor 12:2

Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

Question how were they carried away by them?

Paul said He would become like others to win them over.....
What if we were to come at people directly? they may stop listening.

Paul most likely spoke various languages for He was a scholar. And I think Mac Author mentions that He believed there were 2 different uses for the term Glossa. Like either tongues or tongue, that when Paul used one of those He was talking about the true gift and the other was the counterfeit one.

King James Version​

​

​

20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
23 And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.

 

[donadams]

You have to tell me what Paul said to continue.

12 But what I do, I will also continue to do, that I may cut off the opportunity from those who desire an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in the things of which they boast.
13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ.
14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works. (2 Cor. 11:12-15 NKJ)

He is saying that he is a valid apostle and is opposed to self-appointed hypocrite

 

[jeremiah1five]

Was Paul saying He spoke in the language of angels?

Let's post the Scripture and 'cut it up.'

Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. 1 Cor. 13:1.

From Strong's
ἄγγελος angelos
from aggello [probably derivative from <G71> (ago); compare <G34> (agele)] (to bring tidings); a messenger; especially an “angel”; by implication a pastor:

First, 'sounding brass' and 'tinkling cymbal' are not noise. 'Sounding brass' sounds like 'sounding brass.' 'Tinkling cymbal' sounds like 'tinkling cymbal' when you strike them both. These are the natural sounds of each metal or element. It's the "without love/charity' that is key.

I don't take "angels" in this verse to be the 'ministering spirits of fire of God' but human messengers and maybe pastors (and/or prophets).
Paul spoke in the language or message of those who carried the good news of Christ's arrival to Israel and what it meant to Israel (and Greek) today (in his time.)

You?

 

[Deidr]

Let's post the Scripture and 'cut it up.'

Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. 1 Cor. 13:1.

From Strong's
ἄγγελος angelos
from aggello [probably derivative from <G71> (ago); compare <G34> (agele)] (to bring tidings); a messenger; especially an “angel”; by implication a pastor:

First, 'sounding brass' and 'tinkling cymbal' are not noise. 'Sounding brass' sounds like 'sounding brass.' 'Tinkling cymbal' sounds like 'tinkling cymbal' when you strike them both. These are the natural sounds of each metal or element. It's the "without love/charity' that is key.

I don't take "angels" in this verse to be the 'ministering spirits of fire of God' but human messengers and maybe pastors (and/or prophets).
Paul spoke in the language or message of those who carried the good news of Christ's arrival to Israel and what it meant to Israel (and Greek) today (in his time.)

You?

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but I do not have love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

HI, I was trying to show it's hypothetical...
I think one has to understand the culture of the Corinthians and their practices to see if that's why Paul relates to them that way.

 

[Deidr]

If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but I do not have love, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

HI, I was trying to show it's hypothetical...
I think one has to understand the culture of the Corinthians and their practices to see if that's why Paul relates to them that way.

Into the Heart of Paganism | Christian History Magazine

Christian History Institute (CHI) provides church history resources and self-study material and publishes the quarterly Christian History Magazine. Our aim is to make Christian history enjoyable and applicable to the widest possible audience.

christianhistoryinstitute.org

 

[Alfred Persson]

Now, I will quote you, and you specifically since from what little I've seen on these boards, you are an agitator and agent provacateur.


1. No one asked Christ to step into a lab.
2. Scientists do not need to use a lab, or even the scientific method to prove God exists; it can be done by reductive logic.
3. You do twist, implying meanings to words where it is convenient for you to do so, despite the fact that I have been explicitly clear, to the point of definining the terms I am using so there is no confusion.
4. Science does prove God exists by using deduction from what is known. It's the entire point of having an amygdala in the brain. Clearly, God wants us to use pattern-recognition, or he wouldn't have given us the neurolgical faculties to engage in it.
5. The scientific method is available to anyone, anywhere, at any time. You do not have a monopoly on what constitutes scientific inquiry.
6. You have yet to refute a single claim of mine using the same rubric as I; you are attempting to use semantics and overloaded tautologies to make your point, despite the fact that I have clearly removed them entirely from the argument. Your efforts to cloud the issue by reintroducing them is as apparent as it is blatant.

Do they not teach debate class anymore in high school? You have failed in every single point you have made, and made such an obnoxious appearance that I don't care what your response is--I'm not interested. And that is enetirely your fault, and something explicitly prohibited in scripture. We as believers are not to attack what another believer chooses to find holy to honor God, and if I find God's holiness in the symmetry of mathematics, who are you to tell me God isn't there? Cue the crickets sound track.

Scientific Method requires the Question be testable.

The test the Bible teaching of a risen Christ by scientific method we must do the following:

You'll be happy to know All agitators and agent provocateurs like myself would be screened out.

To minimize potential sources of bias that could influence the results neither the participants or the researchers would know which group each participant belonged to, their expectations and beliefs could unconsciously influence the outcome or the way the results are interpreted. By keeping both the participants and the researchers blind to group assignments, the study aims to ensure that resulting resurrection of Jesus was an observed effect rather than biased expectations or beliefs.

To achieve blinding, participants in the study are randomly assigned to either the experimental or control group, and they are given identical-looking corpses of Jesus to watch, but only one would be real.

After the data collection is complete, the code indicating the group assignments is revealed, allowing the researchers to analyze the results. The double-blind design allows for unbiased analysis and interpretation of the data, enhancing the scientific rigor of the study and increasing confidence in the findings.

Only if these strict procedures are followed can the "scientific method" be used to verify Jesus rose from the dead.

 

[Alfred Persson]

He is saying that he is a valid apostle and is opposed to self-appointed hypocrite

I think he is calling apostles who want "to be regarded just as we" "false apostles" and ministers of Satan.

12 But what I do, I will also continue to do, that I may cut off the opportunity from those who desire an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in the things of which they boast.
13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ.
14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works. (2 Cor. 11:12-15 NKJ)

 

[Alfred Persson]

Into the Heart of Paganism | Christian History Magazine

Christian History Institute (CHI) provides church history resources and self-study material and publishes the quarterly Christian History Magazine. Our aim is to make Christian history enjoyable and applicable to the widest possible audience.

christianhistoryinstitute.org

Thanks for the link, a keeper! The article was great, especially about Paul seeking how best to spread the gospel worldwide. During my pre-Christian merchant seaman years, Corinth would have been my sort of town (I'm ashamed to say.)

 

[Alfred Persson]

You may all twist the words around as much as you like, but objective fact and subjective opinion are two different things. Until something better is created, the scientific method serves its purpose...

I respond to the board because my challenge is for all. Until you can prove to me...that there have been objective miracles, I operate under the premise that God is reserving them for the final day...I, however, will continue to praise God every time I learn something new...

The term "objective miracles" typically refers to extraordinary events or phenomena that are believed to have occurred outside of natural explanations and are documented in the Bible.

Here are some examples of objective miracles found in the Bible:

1. Creation of the universe (Genesis 1:1)
2. Parting of the Red Sea (Exodus 14:21-22)
3. Ten Plagues of Egypt (Exodus 7-12)
4. The resurrection of Jesus Christ (Matthew 28:1-10, Mark 16:1-8, Luke 24:1-12, John 20:1-18)
5. Turning water into wine (John 2:1-11)
6. Healing the sick, blind, and paralyzed (Matthew 9:35, Mark 1:32-34, Luke 6:17-19)
7. Feeding the multitude with a few loaves and fishes (Matthew 14:13-21, Mark 6:30-44, Luke 9:10-17, John 6:1-14)
8. Walking on water (Matthew 14:22-33, Mark 6:45-52, John 6:15-21)
9. Healing the lepers (Matthew 8:1-4, Mark 1:40-45, Luke 17:11-19)
10. Raising the dead, such as Lazarus (John 11:1-44)

These are just a few examples of the objective miracles described in the Bible.

Glad I could help praise of God increase even more.

ap

 

[donadams]

I think he is calling apostles who want "to be regarded just as we" "false apostles" and ministers of Satan.

12 But what I do, I will also continue to do, that I may cut off the opportunity from those who desire an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in the things of which they boast.
13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ.
14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works. (2 Cor. 11:12-15 NKJ)

A valid authorized apostle is not spiritually called or self appointed but sent, the word apostle means one who is sent.

Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

The apostles must send apostles acts 1:26 Jn 20:21

 

[Alfred Persson]

Does that "metric" apply to the Church at Corinth to which Paul addressed his letters?
It seems to me that you have defined the gifts of the spirit in a way that eve those to whom Paul wrote about how to use the gifts they had been given do not qualify as having those gifts. You have lumped the Apostle Paul into the "wrong theology continuationist" camp.

The end of Apostles proves that ... there are no more Apostles (and nothing more).
The inability of every church to reproduce Acts 2 (even in the Book of Acts) proves Acts 2 was special (and nothing more).

It is more telling that "Pentacostals" report miracles while "cessationists" do not. It reminds me of the difference between Jesus' visit to Samaria and his visit to Nazareth. Jesus was the same, it was the people that were different.
Do cessationists "have not, because they ask not"?

You are right I defined the gifts in Corinth as permitting "fallible prophecy" without it being "false prophecy", but I can do that because I am not defining "prophecy" as a special gift of revelation like "tongues and knowledge" Paul said would cease in 1 Corinthians 13:8.

Paul denied the "tongues knowledge and prophecy" that came from the Corinthians was "the word of God" equal to what they received when Paul preached to them:

36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached?
37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.
38 But if anyone is ignorant, let him be ignorant. (1 Cor. 14:36-38 NKJ)

Therefore, I can consistently distinguish what Corinthians did from prophecy that cannot be fallible.

With the exception of tongues, I see the following "gifts" in modern non-Charismatic Churches during Bible Study and fellowship events:

26 How is it then, brethren? Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.
27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, let there be two or at the most three, each in turn, and let one interpret.
28 But if there is no interpreter, let him keep silent in church, and let him speak to himself and to God.
29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge.
30 But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent.
31 For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged.
32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints. (1 Cor. 14:26-33 NKJ)

Today we have completed Bibles. When "on fire" believers quote scripture and do a little "expository preaching", that IS PROPHECY. But other "prophets" (those who know sound doctrine) are to judge the preaching to make sure its correct.

Same with sharing Psalms or a "revelation" received about a Bible text.

The Corinthian church wasn't much different than a "on fire church" today. Although the sign gift of tongues has ceased.

BUT I CAN DO THAT, Continualists cannot. They claim what they do is a continuation of what happened in the 1st century. The moment they distinguish Pentecost Tongues as different than today, they are no longer "continualists."

Same with their apostles. If they aren't equal to the 12 who wrote scripture, then they are Cessationists like I am.

To prove they are Continualists, they have to prove they are "continuing" what the 12 did.

 

[hawkman]

This thread is still going .
Maybe you can answer my question I had for you Alfred Persson ?
https://christianforums.net/threads...ist-or-inventionist.97523/page-7#post-1778399

 

[Alfred Persson]

You and I as Christians are protected by the armor of God . Of course the lost are not and satan can attack as you say above . Aren't you protected by the armor of God Alfred Persson ?

Ephesians Chapter 6

11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Its because I have the whole armour of God that I was able to stand against the wiles of the Devil.

Jesus Christ taught His disciples to pray:

And do not lead us into temptation, But deliver us from the evil one. For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen. (Matt. 6:13 NKJ)

Does this mean God wasn't protecting them?

My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. (Hos. 4:6 NKJ)

It is good the wheat be separated from the chaff during this life, it serves God's purpose. Therefore, God permits Satan "sift us like wheat" :

And the Lord said, "Simon, Simon! Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat. (Lk. 22:31 NKJ)

It doesn't mean we aren't protected:

"...God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it. (1 Cor. 10:13 NKJ)

Because I have been tempted, I know how the Devil tempts and can warn others.:

lest Satan should take advantage of us; for we are not ignorant of his devices. (2 Cor. 2:11 NKJ)

Test The Spirits in Dreams Visions Abductions | End Time News

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.(1 Jn. 4:1 NKJ) I had an "out of body" experience where the illusion I had traveled to heaven was very real, but Scripture implies Demons can "download" a...

endtimenews.net

 

[jeremiah1five]

A valid authorized apostle is not spiritually called or self appointed but sent, the word apostle means one who is sent.

Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

The apostles must send apostles acts 1:26 Jn 20:21

The Holy Ghost is the ONE that does the sending. Not apostles, not popes, not anyone except the Holy Ghost:

2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them. Acts. 13:2.

And as you can see this took place while they were having church. That's where everybody can see what God is doing in His Church. In the open. No secrets and no backroom deals.