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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
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https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
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John MacArthur: Continualists do not exist, everyone is a Cessationist or Inventionist
- Thread starter Alfred Persson
- Start date
And 24 hours later that sounds harsher then I meant it to sound (ahhh, the ever present problem of communicating in this way). To me, the greater point is that both sides believe elements of the other: continuists are not strict continuists, nor are cessationists strict cessationists: God can still heal and do miracles. Thus, whether a person can still have the "gift of healing" seems largely irrelevant to the fact that God still heals, so both continuists and cessationists should be able to get behind that and praise God as a result.
Are there charismatic abuses? Absolutely. Does the Bible expressly state that signs and wonders, and gifts of healing, prophesy, tongues, etc. cannot occur today in our time? No, the Bible does not expressly teach that. We should not let abuses blind us to that fact, anymore than we should judge the Bible based on the many abuses of "Bible-believers" who misinterpret and err in their understanding of the Bible.
Nice deflection. Cessation vs Continualism is whether God does signs and wonders through apostles as He did in the 1st century, not whether God can do anything He wants any time He wants.
Never claimed to be. But I have the right to decide what I will believe and why I will believe it. I require proof, extraordinary proof for extraordinary claims.
I'm well aware of how the "cessation vs continualism" debate is framed (and you've mentioned part of it, but not all of it). I'm telling you that it misses the point by trying to compartmentalize God. You may disagree. But it doesn't matter, because as I said, the Bible does not expressly teach that signs and wonders, and gifts of healing, prophesy, tongues, etc. cannot occur today in our time or that they ceased with the apostles or closing of the New Testament canon.
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"Not expressly," but it can be inferred from 1 Cor. 13:8-13
8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love. (1 Cor. 13:8-13 NKJ)
Paul speaks about Cessation of the "partial" revelatory gifts when the "perfect" or "complete" comes with Christ's return. We must remember Paul believed Christ might return soon after he wrote this letter.
From verses 11-12 it is implied these partial gifts of revelation are the "childish things" that "adulthood" renders "unnecessary", for then we see "face to face...know just as I am known".
That these gifts were ceasing and this caused some to believe God was "abandoning the church", Paul's opening reassurance what was happing in Corinth was the same as in all the churches, takes on new meaning:
3 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
4 I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given to you by Christ Jesus,
5 that you were enriched in everything by Him in all utterance and all knowledge,
6 even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you,
7 so that you come short in no gift, eagerly waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ,
8 who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 God is faithful, by whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. (1 Cor. 1:3-9 NKJ)
Therefore, it is likely the "partial gifts" of revelation were already ceasing, Paul saw "adulthood" coming as "childlish things" were vanishing from the life of the church.
It was the "Cessation" of these extraordinary gifts of revelation that was fueling divisions in the church (1 Cor. 1:10). The church was separated into two main groups: "sign" and "wisdom" seekers (1 Cor. 1:17-24). As most of the letter is devoted to "non-charismatic issues" and only a majority could "forbid speaking in tongues" (1 Cor. 14:39) the "tongues speakers etc." were the minority.
As these gifts were ceasing, as Paul believed "the Perfect" (or "Complete") would arrive soon, and Christian tradition testifies these gifts had essentially vanished after the 1st century, Cessationism is more likely true than "continualism".
Corroborating that conclusions is the universal acknowledgment the founding apostles and prophets were unique. That God bore witness they alone could write scripture and His "signs and wonders" certifying that was already being spoken of in the "past tense" in Hebrews 2:2-4 which many say was written before the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD.
2 For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward,
3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,
4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will? (Heb. 2:2-4 NKJ)
Alfred Persson
Thank you for your response. I am pleased to see that we are in agreement on several points.
1. The Bible does not expressly teach cessationism. Yes, I agree. And I think that is important to always keeps in mind, especially for an issue as divisive as this one.
2. The "perfect" in 1 Cor. 13.9 is Christ's Second Coming. Yes, I agree. I think you are correct about that.
#1 tells us that there is no slam-dunk biblical case for cessationism, as it is not clearly, or expressly taught anywhere in the Bible.
And #2 would seem to be support for continuationism: the gifts (including tongues) will cease when Christ returns at his Second Coming; a day we eagerly await and which still has yet to come. (When will the gifts cease? Paul tells us "when": "when the perfect comes.").
Beyond that, I see nothing in the passages that you cite to indicate the gifts are *already* in the process of ceasing. Such a suggestion also doesn't fit with Paul's exhortation to "earnestly desire the spiritual gifts" (1 Cor 14.1); his wish that "I want you all to speak in tongues" (1 Cor 14.5); his thanks to God that he speaks in tongues more than all of them (1 Cor 14.18: "I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you."); or Paul's directive that they "earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues" (1 Cor 14.39).
Similarly, Heb. 2.2-4 does not say the apostles "alone could write scripture" (the apostles aren't referenced at all; plus, that would mean Luke & Acts are not scripture); nor does it say signs and wonders or gifts of the Holy Spirit had ceased or will cease after the apostles. However, Heb 2.2-4 does recount the "great salvation"--the proclamation of which "was declared at first by the Lord [Jesus]," attested by witnesses "who heard" (including the author), and confirmed by *God's* miraculous displays and gifts of the Holy Spirit. The signs, wonders, miracles are attributed to God with no mention of the apostles, and the gifts of the Holy Spirit could just as easily be a reference to gifts that the readers already possessed and received (past tense) at the time of their conversion.
*Which brings us back to #1: nowhere in the Bible is cessationism clearly, expressly taught
Thank you for your response. I am pleased to see that we are in agreement on several points.
1. The Bible does not expressly teach cessationism. Yes, I agree. And I think that is important to always keeps in mind, especially for an issue as divisive as this one.
2. The "perfect" in 1 Cor. 13.9 is Christ's Second Coming. Yes, I agree. I think you are correct about that.
#1 tells us that there is no slam-dunk biblical case for cessationism, as it is not clearly, or expressly taught anywhere in the Bible.
And #2 would seem to be support for continuationism: the gifts (including tongues) will cease when Christ returns at his Second Coming; a day we eagerly await and which still has yet to come. (When will the gifts cease? Paul tells us "when": "when the perfect comes.").
Beyond that, I see nothing in the passages that you cite to indicate the gifts are *already* in the process of ceasing. Such a suggestion also doesn't fit with Paul's exhortation to "earnestly desire the spiritual gifts" (1 Cor 14.1); his wish that "I want you all to speak in tongues" (1 Cor 14.5); his thanks to God that he speaks in tongues more than all of them (1 Cor 14.18: "I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you."); or Paul's directive that they "earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues" (1 Cor 14.39).
Similarly, Heb. 2.2-4 does not say the apostles "alone could write scripture" (the apostles aren't referenced at all; plus, that would mean Luke & Acts are not scripture); nor does it say signs and wonders or gifts of the Holy Spirit had ceased or will cease after the apostles. However, Heb 2.2-4 does recount the "great salvation"--the proclamation of which "was declared at first by the Lord [Jesus]," attested by witnesses "who heard" (including the author), and confirmed by *God's* miraculous displays and gifts of the Holy Spirit. The signs, wonders, miracles are attributed to God with no mention of the apostles, and the gifts of the Holy Spirit could just as easily be a reference to gifts that the readers already possessed and received (past tense) at the time of their conversion.
*Which brings us back to #1: nowhere in the Bible is cessationism clearly, expressly taught
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